Enough forage?

[Hormonal Filly]

I’m just trying to work out if my mare has enough forage. She is a 6yo Irish Sport Horse but lives on fresh air in summer, we’re now treating for hindgut ulcers due to symptoms.

She is in a paddock approx. 0.35 acres, wears a flexible filly muzzle with a largened hole. The grass is short, but our yard has very good grass and she picks through her muzzle.

She is out muzzled overnight 5pm – 9am then comes in during the day 9-4pm with 2kg of hay in small nets.

Her weight is perfect. She is fed alfalfa molasses free chaff, micronized linseed, vitamin E, Equimins balancer and pea protein. The problem is she is always hungry and now with the possibly hindgut ulcers it has made me worry she isn’t getting enough – but aware despite with her medium workload, if she gets more she’ll definitely put the weight on.

The last couple of days I’ve started to put a small amount of hay in the field on an evening (she eats like spaghetti through her muzzle) but guessing I’ll have to soak one lot of hay to ensure she doesn’t put weight on?

Any thoughts?

 

[AdorableAlice]

Been there and got the t shirt, plus 8k of vet bills over 4 year period. Insufficient fibre resulted in many gas colic's and displaced colon.

I was advised to keep the horse eating all the time by mixing 40% barley or oat straw with 60% meadow hay. I now have a horse ( huge maxi cob type) who is slim and happy and eating 24/7. She only grazes for an hour morning and evening. No longer starving, no longer standing with nothing for hours, no longer grinding her teeth.

Also bucket feed x 2, Top Spec senior balancer, oat chaff, natural vit E, equinectar and handful of linseed. She looks fabulous, lots of energy and so much happier.

 

[Surbie]

2kg over 8 hours stabled (including the hour before she hits the grass) isn't much imo. Personally I'd feed double that but soaked, and provide dampened straw chaff to pick at too.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I was advised to keep the horse eating all the time by mixing 40% barley or oat straw with 60% meadow hay.

Really interesting, thanks for sharing. She does have a barley straw bed with fresh straw on top everyday she could eat everyday but doesn't touch it. I guess I could put some in the field.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I don't think 2kg is enough mine get at least double that in summer and they are not muzzled my grazing is not great.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I don't think 2kg is enough mine get at least double that in summer and they are not muzzled my grazing is not great.

Oh wow, ok thank you. Even my cob wasn't as good a doer as my current mare! I guess if I start giving her some over night soaked and a bit more during the day that should be enough, but its going to be hard to ensure she doesn't put to weight on.

Quite possibly the symptoms and poss hindgut ulcers might be my fault then..

 

[Tiddlypom]

My hind gut ulcers mare would colic if she didn’t get enough bulk going through. It was a tightrope gauging how much to move the strip grazing as the IDx she was turned out with would colic if she got too much forage .

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

On sparse or no grazing that 2 kgs would only be enough for one of my big donkeys, definitely not my horse, she would probably colic on very slim rations without enough going through her gut. I also try to mix with straw more for them than my horse, as one of the donks can be lammi prone so have to warch what they eat and how much of it.

I have also always been led to believe that the muzzles will only allow enough and not too much food in if the grass is long enough, with very short sward it is fairly difficult for them to get adequate grass even for a good doer.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Oh wow, ok thank you. Even my cob wasn't as good a doer as my current mare! I guess if I start giving her some over night soaked and a bit more during the day that should be enough, but its going to be hard to ensure she doesn't put to weight on.

Quite possibly the symptoms and poss hindgut ulcers might be my fault then..

Arabi has had hind gut discomfort and I find his much better if his not restricted so I give him what he wants hay wise.

If i don't give him enough he will take it out on Louis and have a go at him because I think he gets uncomfortable with an empty gut.

 

[ecb89]

I would give more and soak. My ID could do 2kg in half an hour given the opportunity

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Arabi has had hind gut discomfort and I find his much better if his not restricted so I give him what he wants hay wise.

If i don't give him enough he will take it out on Louis and have a go at him because I think he gets uncomfortable with an empty gut.

That’s interesting, last summer I let her have ad-lib hay and she was turned out in the herd on quite a bit of grass. She was the best she’s ever been ridden wise but got extremely fat..

I would give more and soak. My ID could do 2kg in half an hour given the opportunity

Started soaking this evening.

Thanks all!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would let her eat as much *plain* oat straw chaff as she wants to. I used Halleys or Honeychop, NOT Top Chop Zero, which has added flavourings to get weight off an obese Draft mare. She learned to self-regulate eating that.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I would let her eat as much *plain* oat straw chaff as she wants to. I used Halleys or Honeychop, NOT Top Chop Zero, which has added flavourings to get weight off an obese Draft mare. She learned to self-regulate eating that.

Thank you @Pearlsasinger, I’ve got a bag of Honeyschop Oat straw coming tomorrow with the feed lady.

Do you wetten the chaff or leave it dry?

 

[Horsegirl25]

Nothing to contribute but my ISH is also a grubber, for some reason I was led to believe that breed weren't that good of doers and kept themselves quite slim. My ISH is more of a good doer than my Welsh D!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Nothing to contribute but my ISH is also a grubber, for some reason I was led to believe that breed weren't that good of doers and kept themselves quite slim. My ISH is more of a good doer than my Welsh D!

I can agree with that, my previous horse a Welsh D and my 14.2 cob weren't as good doers as my ISH!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Thank you @Pearlsasinger, I’ve got a bag of Honeyschop Oat straw coming tomorrow with the feed lady.

Do you wetten the chaff or leave it dry?

I left it dry.

 

[PurBee]

Hey HF, sorry to read about your mare - just wondering if the hind gut symptoms started after starting the alfalfa chaff?

Alfalfa is high calcium and often good for and used as a ‘acid buffer’ feed in ulcer prone horses, but there’s the potential downside of it being fairly high protein - which has potential to cause hind gut disturbance in some horses.
I cant find the article right now having a quick search, but i recall when i was researching legumes in general a while ago, i found a nutritional article on alfalfa protein type, that there are some proteins in it which dont get metabolised in the foregut, and ferment in the hind gut instead. This can create discomfort and gas etc, and is thought to be the reason some horses dont do well on alfalfa.
Specifically, they dont know why some horses are ok with alfalfa and others not, but it was put forward that likely different gut microbes to metabolise the hindgut proteins was a potential cause - some horses have them and some dont.

The interesting thing about hind gut protein fermentation, is that its thought the protein is not absorbed in the body, and just pooped-out. They studied this by injecting protein into foregut and measuring a rise in serum levels, and injecting into hindgut, and measuring no subsequent rise in serum protein levels. So if we use alfalfa for extra protein, it might be a waste of time in some horses due to protein hind gut wastage.

There’s been a few posters on here over the years attest their horses cant tolerate alfalfa, and even small amounts of it when there is an intolerance. So i wonder if even the small chaff meal she’s getting is aggravating her causing the hind gut symptoms.
The only way to find out would be to switch to something safe and generic like soaked hay/grass cubes, and see if omitting the alfalfa improves symptoms.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My feed sensitive hind gut issues mare was recommended alfalfa as part of her post Equibiome result feeding protocol. I thought ‘no chance’, but trialled her on it anyway, and to my surprise she was grand on it.

Once I’d got her hind gut issues sorted I was able to reintroduce feeds such as micronised linseed which had previously sent her loopy.

 

[SantaVera]

Its expensive but a trug of honey chop or top chop zero on the stable and paddock is what I do for my cob who has restricted grass and hay. Also a net of long straw is always available for him.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Hey HF, sorry to read about your mare - just wondering if the hind gut symptoms started after starting the alfalfa chaff?

Alfalfa is high calcium and often good for and used as a ‘acid buffer’ feed in ulcer prone horses, but there’s the potential downside of it being fairly high protein - which has potential to cause hind gut disturbance in some horses.
I cant find the article right now having a quick search, but i recall when i was researching legumes in general a while ago, i found a nutritional article on alfalfa protein type, that there are some proteins in it which dont get metabolised in the foregut, and ferment in the hind gut instead. This can create discomfort and gas etc, and is thought to be the reason some horses dont do well on alfalfa.
Specifically, they dont know why some horses are ok with alfalfa and others not, but it was put forward that likely different gut microbes to metabolise the hindgut proteins was a potential cause - some horses have them and some dont.

The interesting thing about hind gut protein fermentation, is that its thought the protein is not absorbed in the body, and just pooped-out. They studied this by injecting protein into foregut and measuring a rise in serum levels, and injecting into hindgut, and measuring no subsequent rise in serum protein levels. So if we use alfalfa for extra protein, it might be a waste of time in some horses due to protein hind gut wastage.

There’s been a few posters on here over the years attest their horses cant tolerate alfalfa, and even small amounts of it when there is an intolerance. So i wonder if even the small chaff meal she’s getting is aggravating her causing the hind gut symptoms.
The only way to find out would be to switch to something safe and generic like soaked hay/grass cubes, and see if omitting the alfalfa improves symptoms.

Thanks PB! She has been on alfalfa for a couple of years now and not had issues before but could be worth stopping and seeing if if helps!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Its expensive but a trug of honey chop or top chop zero on the stable and paddock is what I do for my cob who has restricted grass and hay. Also a net of long straw is always available for him.

Thank you. I bought a sack of Honey Chop oat straw chaff, she's been having a bucket a day.. didn't touch it on the weekend but yesterday she had some hay left (her beds straw) but had eaten all the straw chaff

 

[Hallo2012]

is there any chance of moving to poorer grazing?

my lami prone pony (hes never had it but he piles on weight looking at grass and there is a family history of it) does SO much better on a very bare paddock with ad lib meadow hay.

he can mooch round picking at the grass shoots but doest get enough to affect him, and his gut does well on this.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

is there any chance of moving to poorer grazing?

Not unless I move yards which isn't a option at the moment, majority of the yards in my area have no winter turnout so my yard with 24/7 winter turnout is difficult to find!

 

[Hallo2012]

Not unless I move yards which isn't a option at the moment, majority of the yards in my area have no winter turnout so my yard with 24/7 winter turnout is difficult to find!

thats a bugger but i understand the trade off.

are you allowed to fence off a smaller area and get it eaten down and use that? corner on hardstanding? basically anything off long lush grass?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

thats a bugger but i understand the trade off.

are you allowed to fence off a smaller area and get it eaten down and use that? corner on hardstanding? basically anything off long lush grass?

She is paddocked, the grass is very short now but good quality if that makes sense. She is muzzled at night and now has soaked hay. I could restrict the paddock more, but then she gets less movement. Difficult!