Equest Pramox Wormer - whens the perfect time?

[HappyNeds]

Hi, just wondering if anyone could give me some guidance on when the perfect time would be to give the 'everything' autumn/winter wormer? I've researched and it looks like Equest Pramox is the only one that does everything.
My boys are in their own field, and I poo-pick daily, so my long-term plan is to only worm them twice a year - once in the autumn/winter and again in the Spring to get the tapeworms etc. (Although they were wormed this summer with Equimax as one of them was at a schooling yard for a couple of weeks grazing with lots of other horses and so I had to worm them both when he got back).
Also, there's still plenty of grass for them to eat and I've been moving their electric tape about each day, but I've read not to move them onto fresh grass after worming, but how long do I need to wait until I can? Would this just be a couple of days? I couldn't seem to find anything on this.
Many thanks everyone xxx

 

[Cinnamontoast]

November is traditionally tapeworm time.

I used Pramox on Sunday with mine.

The whole keep them in/don't move their grazing is, according to my vet, to do with not poisoning the dung beetles as wormers may kill them, so perhaps move them after two days or so and poo pick as often as feasible.

 

[HappyNeds]

Thanks cinammontoast, I will do them this week.
I can't decide if I need to get 3 tubes between the 2 of them, as its' only a 575kg tube, and although I've never had my boys weighed (and don't seem to have worked anything out conculsively using the weight tape) I'm worrying they might be over this weight, and I've heard you can't hurt them by overdosing, but you can cause problems by underdosing.
Any opinions on this?

My one boy is a 15'2 very very chunky gypsy vanner with legs like tree trucks and a neck like a boxer(!!) and my other boy is a 15'2 Welsh D, I would say a medium build. They are still both the most handsome boys ever mind you! xx

 

[vicksey]

I used it tonight on mine. horse had a minimal worm count at the end of winter so didn't get wormed. Got a medium worm count last week so had pramox tonight.

 

[EmmaC78]

I used it on Monday. End of October/ beginning if November is when I normally use it for tapeworm.

 

[HappyNeds]

Thanks for the replies, I'm on track to do it now then.

 

[smiffyimp]

wouldnt use the stuff no matter what - look up recent threads re colic.

 

[Oberon]

wouldnt use the stuff no matter what - look up recent threads re colic.

Agree. Used it once. Won't use it again.

 

[HappyNeds]

Hi smiffyimp, thanks for the warning, and I did see the thread you menionted, but I also found lots of other people that said they used it fine, and as far as I'm aware this is the only wormer that treats tapeworm and bots and encrusted small redworm, so I don't really see what else to use?

I want to worm them as little as possible, hence the OCD poo-picking daily (sometimes twice daily!), and I've been told that if I just do them now and again in the spring for everything my poo-picking inbetween will cover them.

Any suggestions for other wormers greatfully received, as I don't want to leave them untreated for any particular worm

 

[HappyNeds]

Agree. Used it once. Won't use it again.

Hi, can I ask what you use instead? Thanks x

 

[splashgirl45]

hi, ive used pramox the last couple of times and had no problems, i was a little worried this time as i already had the wormer and then read the posts on it.. i decided to use it and all was ok,

maybe give your vet a ring if you are worried

 

[smiffyimp]

Hi if you poo pick regularly and are able (ie yard will let you), I egg count all year - so dont worm. Egg counts will not pick up tape worm or encysted redworm so you must worm (or get a blood test for tape), therefore I use equitape around Oct time and 5 day course around Nov. I dont worm for bots as I have no evidence (ie eggs on their legs) that it is required. You would be fine worming for tape now, and use 5 day course early Dec - they are different drugs so doesnt matter if they overlap. Do again around March/April

You can also use Equimax for tape and bots and 5 day for encysted.

I used pramox when it first came out, as did the yard. 3 horses went down with colic - mine included. 1 was lucky to make it through the night, hence my comments.

I personally think the drugs are getting too strong for horses to cope with and thats why so many colic on the new ones. Ask you vet about the trials on Equest and Equest Pramox before they were launched - doesnt make good reading.

If you can egg count and worm when necessary, please do. Its better for the horse, your pocket and resistance. Hope this helps a bit. X

 

[FairyLights]

Hi, can I ask what you use instead? Thanks x

A wormer with the ingredient Pyratel Embonate. This is what I will be using this month. Having lost horses to EGS I wont use ivermectin or moxidectin based wormers. If you read the small print it seems that PE wormers are less "harsh" and dont stay in the system as long as some of the other types.

 

[paddy555]

Hi smiffyimp, thanks for the warning, and I did see the thread you menionted, but I also found lots of other people that said they used it fine, and as far as I'm aware this is the only wormer that treats tapeworm and bots and encrusted small redworm, so I don't really see what else to use?

I want to worm them as little as possible, hence the OCD poo-picking daily (sometimes twice daily!), and I've been told that if I just do them now and again in the spring for everything my poo-picking inbetween will cover them.

Any suggestions for other wormers greatfully received, as I don't want to leave them untreated for any particular worm

I'm another who would never use pramox. Simply not worth the risk.
I wouldn't use a combination wormer I would worm for tapes with say equitape and then, at a different time, with equest (or PG if no resistance) for encysted. Equest also does bots. That way they all got covered and I personally feel it is safer.

If you are doing lots of poo picking and want to worm as little as possible do you actually have a worm problem? have you done a count?
If you have a very low burden with worm counts why not just do tapes with equitape annually and then in December with equest for encysted and that's it. So you could worm now with equitape, do a worm count to see what your postion is and then use equest in December do a more worm counts next year and you may well not be doing anything until equitape next October or so.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

My horse is verging on the hw, is 15 hh and weighs roughly 560kg so had pretty much all of the tube. I heard about the colic issue, one horse on the yard can't have any of the Pramox type products, but mine has been fine.

You can then do Panacur 5 day Guard, which is usually January, although a friend is doing it this week.

It's a bit of a git trialling wormers and panicking about colic, but having seen a horse die of worm damage, I'd rather not risk it, especially if you're on a yard that isn't so strict about their worming programme.

 

[HappyNeds]

Thanks for all the comments everyone, now I'm thinking I might just worm for tapeworms now and then do a worm count in a couple of weeks and see how they are. Am I right in thinking that if I've done tapeworm then ALL other worms will show up on a worm count?

 

[galaxy]

nope, not encysted redworm

 

[Maesfen]

The whole keep them in/don't move their grazing is, according to my vet, to do with not poisoning the dung beetles as wormers may kill them, so perhaps move them after two days or so and poo pick as often as feasible.

When my mare was very ill last winter while out on loan, lost a lot of weight rapidly and had very low count blood tests, the vet there suggested worming with Pramox even though she has been religously correctly wormed all her life and had been done six weeks before with Equest. There were still worms emerging after three weeks so the usual 2 day rule seems a bit of a nonsense - and a worry (plus the fact that Equest hadn't shifted them anyway!). The reason given by the manufacturers (vet contacted them as she thought it was faulty and not living up to the blurb about it) was that Pramox stays working in the body longer than other wormers so unless you poo pick daily, don't assume your paddocks wont still be being contaminated.

 

[the watcher]

To come back to the original question of when to use it, I've always done the autumn tapeworm worming in November, after the first frost (a bit like picking sloes). Don't know if it is an old wives' tale but have always understood that to be the most effective time. These days with longer lasting chemicals it probably makes no difference

 

[paddy555]

Thanks for all the comments everyone, now I'm thinking I might just worm for tapeworms now and then do a worm count in a couple of weeks and see how they are. Am I right in thinking that if I've done tapeworm then ALL other worms will show up on a worm count?

encysted don't which is why many worm for them in Dec "as a matter or course or just in case". Personally I worm for encysted but some people who do regular worm counts and get very low counts feel safe not to.

have you had a look at Westgate labs site.
http://www.westgatelabs.co.uk/info-zone/index.html

there is lots of info in the information zone on there and suggested worming plans. May be worth a look to give you some ideas.

 

[galaxy]

When my mare was very ill last winter while out on loan, lost a lot of weight rapidly and had very low count blood tests, the vet there suggested worming with Pramox even though she has been religously correctly wormed all her life and had been done six weeks before with Equest. There were still worms emerging after three weeks so the usual 2 day rule seems a bit of a nonsense - and a worry (plus the fact that Equest hadn't shifted them anyway!). The reason given by the manufacturers (vet contacted them as she thought it was faulty and not living up to the blurb about it) was that Pramox stays working in the body longer than other wormers so unless you poo pick daily, don't assume your paddocks wont still be being contaminated.

We had a horse last year with worms emerging 3/4 weeks after we wormed with Pramox! It is not the amazing kill all wormer people think it is. Vet had us then do a Panacur 5 day and then worm counted a month later.

I am surprised a vet told you to worm with Pramox if the horse had a known worm burden, ours have always said don't as it is too strong and a number of worms being removed in one go can cause colic.

 

[HappyNeds]

Just thought I'd give you all an update. Firstly, thank you for all your comments, after more research yesterday following several of your suggestions I've phoned my vet this morning, and she has recommended that I worm now only for tape-worm, and then leave them completely until the Spring, and then in April/May get an egg count and go from there.
This is becuase both boys have been wormed in July, and Roy also had a Dectomax injection in September (for mites but also kills worms) and so the amount of small redworms that are in their guts to then be encycsted over the winter must be low, and becuase I daily poo-pick the need to give them such a hard wormer is very low. She said there is no point in getting a worm-count now as once the small redworms start to ensyst (hybernate) then they stop producing eggs and the egg count over the winter will be zero, but that doesn't tell me anything useful.
I'm sure all this information you all already know, but I feel like I understand it better now! Thank you again for all your help, I was getting myself quite confused, and just wanted to do what was best for my boys

 

[ISHmad]

Glad you have your answers now OP. We worm count and then strategically worm twice a year and - touch wood - this regime works really well for our horses. They consistently have low counts without unnecessary wormers.