Equest Pramox worming concern

Birker2020

Birker2020

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Anyone's horse ever gone down with gassy spasmodic colic due to worming of this wormer? I wormed my horse with this on Monday night, with approx one 575KG equivalent of wormer (one tube) and approx half a tube of wormer. I now realise this was too much but it had been left for me with instructions to give one and a half tubes. My horse weighs approx 727KG (was weighbridge weighed in June).

Today (Wednesday morning) my horse (who was kept in since Tuesday morning following shock wave session on vets advice) was very gassy and was lifting his hind legs uncomfortably, stamping them down and letting out watery liquid pooh. He had done this on previous occasions as he was quite a colicky horse at one time.

He was not showing any other signs of colic and I gave him a sachet of danillon (vet has always recommended this as first line of defence) and he settled and has been fine during the day. Tonight he was still doing the same stamping/watery pooh but during the day he has been producing normal looking pooh, eating and drinking and behaving normally. No other signs of colic, eating up well, happy in himself, normal gut sounds. I was happy to leave him tonight turned out. Without going into loads of detail this is typical of his usual colics/tummy upsets (which have been decreasing since the introduction of pink powder a couple of years ago) and nothing different or out of order was apparent to make me worry any more than usual, so please - no horrified gasps of 'GET THE VET NOW', this is usual of my horse and has been for a long time, the vet is aware and is happy for me to control his colics with bute/danillon, horse walker and then assess him.

But just interested to know if anyone else's horse has had a similiar reaction following worming with this wormer.
 
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My boy col iced quite badly after having Pramox. rang the vet and he said it is quite a common reaction to it. Would never use it again.
 
I have used it with all the horses at the yard and not had a problem. However, my vet said she would not recommend it for worming a horse that had not been regularly wormed and which therefore had a large worm burden as it is quite severe. Our horses only get wormed once a year unless their wormcount says otherwise and all have been fine with this product. You did give too large a dose though (as you acknowledged) and it should have been around a tube and one fifth at the most. I actually give our 850kilo horse only one tube.
 
Never had a problem with it (60 horses here). However, they are all wormed very regularly and Pramox is used once a year for tape worm. If you've not used it before, often best to give a half dose to get rid of some of the worm burden without sending too many toxins round the body and then give a full dose two weeks later. If too many worms die at the same time the body can't cope with the decaying mass - colic can be a symptom but worse is toxic shock, which is often fatal.
 
Wagtail said:
You did give too large a dose though (as you acknowledged) and it should have been around a tube and one fifth at the most. I actually give our 850kilo horse only one tube.
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My vet works on clinical trials with wormers before they are approved and IIRC, the trial horses are given up to 7 times the recommended dose before anything can be approved just to make sure it's perfectly safe. They have to test this because of the influx of owners who don't know enough and think more is better (as even some experienced people do too of course especially if a horse hasn't been wormed recently, "let's give it a double dose to make sure" type of thing; the companies also have to be very sure because of litigation of course.

The one thing he is saying is don't over dose on the chemicals as there's nothing stronger to use available at all otherwise everything is going to become immune to them and you might as well just save your money; worm counts and only if necessary for him all the way.
 
Wagtail said:
I actually give our 850kilo horse only one tube.
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Hi Wagtail.

I'm not being nasty or criticising but if you do the above you are actually under dosing your horse by 255KG of weight which equates to approx 4.8g of gel/just under half a tube of wormer.

Really its a waste of money and a waste of time as its not going to rid your horse should he have a burden. You might as well chuck your money down the sink, or alternatively give it to me for the 'Bailey BS re-affiliation fund' :);):D

My horse is fine this morning as I suspected he would be as my mate kindly text me. I walked down the field last night when it was dark and I could hardly make him out in the light as he had a navy rug on and all I could make out was his white flash on his face! He was still standing so I was happy to go home!
 
I never use Equest as studies say that just 2.8x overdose is fatal. Unless you know the exact weight of you horse ( which the op does) it can be far too dangerous. JMHO :)
 
As a sidenote, I made the mistake of pulling off the little plastic stopper with my teeth this Sunday. Good heavens, the stuff tastes absolutely awful. No wonder the horses object to it.
 
If a well trained SQP sold you (only they are qualified to sell it!) the wormer they should have given you the correct does. It is STRONGLY advised that horses that are not done regularly are done with something much milder such as telmin. Equest pramox is incredibly strong and can cause gut issues and colic to horses that have a large worm burden on those with sensitive digestion. I personally hate worming my horses and putting chemicals into them, i have just done them with telmin and will do tape worm in 6 weeks and then they wont be done untill spring unless an egg count says otherwise.
 
I've not had a problem, but only worm twice a year with this wormer (or any other) and have worm counts done in between.

I always put my 3 horses on a course of Milk Thistle 2 weeks before worming and continue for a couple of weeks, or until the powder runs out.
 
I remember checking up on wormers last year to see what was safe to give a pregnant mare for tapeworm. The yard she was on was going to use pramox for tapeworm so I had to look it up to see if it was safe for my pony.
I remember reading somewhere that the drug in pramox, praziquantel, causes gut contractions (to expell any worms) and for that reason it is not advised to give to pregnant mares. She was wormed that time with a double dose of Strongid-P. Sadly, I lost her and her newborn foal to grass sickness in April.
This could be the reason horses are colicking - praziquantel causing gut contractions.
(Worm egg counts DO NOT detect tapeworm. Even if your horse has a zero count, always worm for tapeworm in late autumn and early spring ;)).
 
applecart14 said:
Hi Wagtail.

I'm not being nasty or criticising but if you do the above you are actually under dosing your horse by 255KG of weight which equates to approx 4.8g of gel/just under half a tube of wormer.

Really its a waste of money and a waste of time as its not going to rid your horse should he have a burden. You might as well chuck your money down the sink, or alternatively give it to me for the 'Bailey BS re-affiliation fund' :);):D

My horse is fine this morning as I suspected he would be as my mate kindly text me. I walked down the field last night when it was dark and I could hardly make him out in the light as he had a navy rug on and all I could make out was his white flash on his face! He was still standing so I was happy to go home!
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I do wormcounts on all the horses and he has always come back as zero. I generally only worm once a year after the first frost to ensure that I get any tapeworm and encysted red worm, unless a horse comes back with anything other than zero on the count. If he was always getting a moderate or high count then I would be sure to dose him on more, but he seems to do fine on the one tube.
 
It gave my old girl about 4 or 5 days of mild colic (monitored by vets). She was in her 30s and because I hadn't put 2 and 2 together re colic being linked to Pramox, I *very* nearly PTS as I thought it was her age catching up with her. She is now 38, & I haven't wormed her with Pramox again.
 
Re the praziquantel element of Pramox, this same drug is licensed for pregnant mares when combined in 'Equimax', suggesting that it is simply the lack of drug testing which causes the others not to be. Also I am sure the Pramox equivalent is licensed in other countries but our laws are very strict. Otherwise pregnant mares should have double dose pyrantel for their tapeworm dose.
 
Wagtail said:
I do wormcounts on all the horses and he has always come back as zero.
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Do you blood test for tapeworm? (you need to run an ELISA antibody count to accurately determine tapeworm burden)

OP - as others have said, it is not a wormer I would consider using on a horse with a significant worm burden or with one whose worming history was not known.

In case of very high worm burdens, destruction of the parasites may cause a mild transient colic and loose faeces in the treated horse.
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(http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/Product-1836/Horse-Wormers/Equest-Pramox)

It is a known and listed adverse effect.
 
rhino said:
Do you blood test for tapeworm? (you need to run an ELISA antibody count to accurately determine tapeworm burden)
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No, but I use a wormer that is good for tapeworm every autumn. As the horses at my yard rarely travel, I do not worm more often than this is all other wormcounts are negative.
 
Wagtail said:
No, but I use a wormer that is good for tapeworm every autumn. As the horses at my yard rarely travel, I do not worm more often than this is all other wormcounts are negative.
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Do you give a full dose for the tapeworm wormer, or a reduced dose as stated in your other post?
 
If I use pramox, then I use the reduced dose as my vet says it is very severe. If I use equest tapeworm and panacur equine guard then the full dose. Just my preference due to the warnings I have heard about pramox. My big lad can be sensitive to wormers.
 
PracticalHorseSense said:
I know anything with Praziquantel in it isn't recommend for horses with Insulin Resistance and/or Cushings.
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Do you have any idea of why? I have been told to give pramoxes by my vet for mine as he thinks it is the best one for this time of year and two of mine are cushings. They have had it before.
thanks
claire:-}
 
Pramox is the only wormer for encysted red worms. Encysted reds are undetectable by bloods or poo sample. If they have a high worm burden, especially encysted reds then it can induce colic due to the body reacting to the worms.
 
Evlaire, pramox is often linked with footyness/laminitis - again as laminitis is a metabolic problems often. Toxins in system by dead worms can induce lami
 
popularfurball said:
Pramox is the only wormer for encysted red worms. Encysted reds are undetectable by bloods or poo sample. If they have a high worm burden, especially encysted reds then it can induce colic due to the body reacting to the worms.
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Panacur 5 Day Guard is also for encysted redworms.
 
popularfurball said:
Pramox is the only wormer for encysted red worms. Encysted reds are undetectable by bloods or poo sample. If they have a high worm burden, especially encysted reds then it can induce colic due to the body reacting to the worms.
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The plain Equest also covers encysted redworms and it was the plain Equest that led to our mare foaling a full month early, I would never use either product again. I had avoided them in the past but was recommended to use it by our SQP on this occasion. I am quite sure that many horses have no adverse reaction but there seem to be an awful lot that do, I just wouldn't take the risk again.
 
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