Equi jewel - is it any good for a lethargic good doer

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BethH

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Going round and round and round in circles with my lethargic horse. Vet tests all negative and have spoken to protexein today to discuss a course of recoveraid to see if it is a gut problem after everything else he has had (you've probably seen the stream of woeful posts in the vet section!) that could be causing a problem.

Anyway the lady at protexein I spoke to told me to investigate Saracens Equijewel or Stamm 30 or Baileys outshine to see if it helps the lethargy by adding more protein to his diet that he can convert to energy. He is fed 100% fibre at the moment. Agrobs museli, benevit vit supplement & a small amount of charnwood linseed.

The thing is he looks well, droppings/eating/drinking/coats etc normal and he is in good condition, he deffo does not need to get any fatter or ingest more calories, he just needs to be more energetic so I can work the fat off & build some decent muscle.

I am going to put him on a course of recoveraid to see if it makes any difference but are the above feeds a good idea. I don't want him to put more weight on, but they seem to be oil protein & low starch/sugars (sugar make him an utter pain so he has never had it) so if this could work I'd like to try it. He is very greedy and has always kept weight on well.
 
Equijewel is high calorie = weight gain if not utilised.

Retrain the go aid and get the horse out doing fast work so they are fitter.

Are they boxed or do they have free access to movement - movement is key to gut health and fitness. I would also do an as fed analysis of the diet to ensure there are no excess / deficiency's in current diet - bloods are not accurate for all levels.

Is he getting sufficient fibre and eating all day (trickle feeding)- just because they are round does not always mean you are meeting their requirements.
 
Problem is I can't get him to do anything, am sure he is bored, but we can hack round the farm in walk for 40 mins or manage 15-20 mins in the school with a bit of trot and a short burst of canter, literally a couple of circuits of the school and then he needs to fall back in to trot, same out in the fields just doesn't want to offer it and will do a very slow sedate canter for as long as he can but he is definitely not gung ho any more! He can't manage to go further afield as he is so so slow and just has no oomph - previously (have owned him for 12yrs) I have never needed a leg aid, he was always a lovely forward horse very busy in the head and a very sensitive ride. He responds to very light aiding really well and he is trying to be helpful, he just can't manage it. I know him well enough to understand that if I push him he will try beyond his comfort zone, after 2 or 3 days of trying to push him a bit more he is even worse, he doesn't seem to be able to get fitter. He has always had a very natural lifestyle with loads of turnout, have just started bringing him in overnight to see if him stable resting helps but am sure there is something going on that vets can't put their fingers. He has had a very difficult year or 2 that he can't seem to recover from, if the cushings test wasn't negative and he displayed some symptoms, I'd be convinced he had it!!
 
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Deffo not EquiJewel for a good doer, as mentioned above.

Have you put horse through a full work up? Only asking as some honest little horses will keep on going, despite there being a muscular or arthritic problem. I had exactly this with CF - slowing down, being a bit 'steady' in early this summer. I too had him cushings tested, this came back normal.

I then worked him up on the lunge, he was only very slightly unsound behind on one rein and it wasn't very consistent - a now you see it, now you dont.
So I got vet who did full lameness work up, also examined back too. Then nerve blocked, and then we went for x-rays of the hocks.
Those xrays were shocking, how the little ****** had been carrying on, I do not know! A high degree of degradation in the middle bone of the R hock and also the lower bone on both hocks. This is a cob who would pull your arms out for Olympic gold if he saw a jump, who had over a few weeks gone to being rather careful and then v steady whilst hacking.

Now, am only mentioing the above, so you can keep options open and investigate further.

Yes, you can add go faster grub, but do take a few mins to lunge and trot up to check all is well overall.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
Thanks Fuzzy. I completely get what you are saying and trust me my vet bills are at a pretty serious level and we aren't talking £100's! Good thing I love him to bits! He has had suspected spavin (caused by a farrier nightmare!) injected 12mths ago, bone scan showed hot spots but xray not conclusive, so the vet figured it was probably best to treat that and felt it was, if anything, compression on the bottom part of the hock which isn't the most important bit if that makes sense and in fact, although he does have some bad days, after about 6mths he came sound and most of the time is level and feels more or less ok, he is never worried by being ridden, happily accepts the saddle etc & I never push him because he is pretty honest. It isn't the loss of power that I'm so bothered about, I think I've accepted he is going to be a bit compromised going forwards, it's the lack of energy that makes me unable to work him to keep the hocks flexible hence my need to get to the bottom of the problem as he also had ks as a baby which he recovered amazingly from and keeping him fit is a high priority fore me. As you can see a high maintenance horse who has been bone scanned to within an inch of his life bless him!

I have thyroid problems that make me tired and so it is energy & tiredness I struggle with and it's that feeling I am getting both ridden and from ground work from him. I have no doubt that he is bored and switched off as he has always been very interested in life but it isn't soundness i'm worried about, it's his enthusiasm for life, hence asking whether the feed would help his stamina and allow me to try and work him more whilst accepting he isn't going to be the bouncy horse of the past. To look at he is very well, happy in himself, the vet thinks he is in great condition, shiny coat etc etc - never having another horse, I worry too much!
 
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No - but it has been knocking around my brain that he has some sort of metabolic disorder - there seem to be so many different names for things these days, am being a bit stupid but in terms of day to day looking after he is such an easy horse I don't know much about it.

We had a negative cushings test earlier this year and a confirmed blood infection (cause not 100% known, viral or bacterial) with massively raised fibrynogen levels which tested clear 4wks later but he has never ever ever had anything like this, I feel like his immune system has been completely knocked for 6 and that maybe he just can't pick himself up again, hence although he has had milk thistle and dandelion I am going to give him a course of protexein to see if it can give him a boost. Am going to ask vet to retest for cushings over the next couple of weeks, is there an easy test for EMS & what symptoms would he show?

He has been through so much I don't want to send him off to horsepital again hence not wanting to scope for ulcers as he isn't an obvious case and my vets have been less than helpful, both times I've needed them recently, I had to work hard to convince them he isn't right, as he looks so well they don't believe me and both times after insisting on further investigation they have found problems, but no one seems to be interested in piecing together what's going on. I spend my time convincing myself not to call them as it seems to be me telling them what to look for and then paying them for my own advice to them!!!!
 
I guess i'm lucky i have good equine vets here...! EMS symptoms can be similar to cushings symptoms...Have a look at the website thelaminitissite and it will give you all the info you need plus a fb page where you can ask Andrea any questions...It is another blood test (but it can come back false negative so be aware)...cushings test is free till the end of the month...
 
Hi, I love the global herbs restore, it worked wonders on him when this 1st started, within 3 days he had perked right up, I thought I had my horse back. Finished the course and within a week he was going backwards again, spoke to vet hence blood tests which showed raised fibrynogen and then normal a few weeks later. Gave a further course of restore followed by their old age powder which combines gut balancer and restore but there wasn't much change and certainly not like the 1st time I used it, hence my giving him ground milk thistle and dandelion for the last 10-12 weeks to do a thorough detox even tho major organ function tests came back normal. Even if he were bored it would usually make him fidgety like a young child but he is just happy to stand in the corner of the stable unless it's feed time when he perks up. He really isn't himself. Had a long chat with global herbs about it and they are stumped, have also tried him on top spec joint balancer in case it is the hocks but that didn't make much difference either, he is pretty sound just no adrenaline, can't be much left I haven't tried! Will ask vet to check for EMS too, will read the fb page thanks micky, although he has never had laminitis or colic or shown indications of either. Honestly the KS op & rehab 8yrs ago was easier than this, at least he made progress then!!!!
 
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Hi My horse was 16 this year but this has been going on for 18mths to 2yrs. On the sore foot front, we had a change of farrier 3yrs ago and I stressed that my horse was very sensitive and that foot balance was vital because of his KS op as a baby and over 18mths his feet were ruined, became very underrun, etc etc hence the stress on his hocks and potential spavin, am devastated as he had been so fit and well for the 8-9yrs after the op and shoddy work has caused him such a problem.

So he has been barefoot for the last 2yrs, his feet are amazing and he can walk over flinty fields without too much of a problem and walks best on concrete & tarmac. He is on a very pro barefoot yard and I have wondered on and off if sore feet is the problem and if I should put shoes on but I don't want to cover up the problem and I don't trust any of the farriers around our way as they are all so gung ho and the good ones are impossible to get out. He has a superb trimmer and no pulses/ strong digital cushion, straight coronet band/ thick soles etc etc so again on the face of it, that's not obvious and when you pressure test him, he just doesn't flinch. I am wondering whether to get feet xrayed just for the sake of it but I wonder if that is just a waste of time, I will definitely get him re-tested for cushings and an EMS test too, it's weird, I'm not anti- shoes but the thought of someone knocking lumps of metal back on to his feet makes me feel a bit gutted, odd as he was shod for 10yrs before that!
 
BethH said:
Hi My horse was 16 this year but this has been going on for 18mths to 2yrs. On the sore foot front, we had a change of farrier 3yrs ago and I stressed that my horse was very sensitive and that foot balance was vital because of his KS op as a baby and over 18mths his feet were ruined, became very underrun, etc etc hence the stress on his hocks and potential spavin, am devastated as he had been so fit and well for the 8-9yrs after the op and shoddy work has caused him such a problem.

So he has been barefoot for the last 2yrs, his feet are amazing and he can walk over flinty fields without too much of a problem and walks best on concrete & tarmac. He is on a very pro barefoot yard and I have wondered on and off if sore feet is the problem and if I should put shoes on but I don't want to cover up the problem and I don't trust any of the farriers around our way as they are all so gung ho and the good ones are impossible to get out. He has a superb trimmer and no pulses/ strong digital cushion, straight coronet band/ thick soles etc etc so again on the face of it, that's not obvious and when you pressure test him, he just doesn't flinch. I am wondering whether to get feet xrayed just for the sake of it but I wonder if that is just a waste of time, I will definitely get him re-tested for cushings and an EMS test too, it's weird, I'm not anti- shoes but the thought of someone knocking lumps of metal back on to his feet makes me feel a bit gutted, odd as he was shod for 10yrs before that!
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Have you tried him in boots? They are a great option but if he is happy on hard surfaces then prob not a lot of need. Hang on to a decent trimmer very hard to find have you spoken with them? They should be able to advise whether xray's would be any use.

So many options to consider its hard - maybe write a list and eliminate the easy ones first and then order the rest and try and rule them out.

Does he have friends? My mare recently moved paddocks and was very lethargic out jumping the other day like a school pony just getting over the fences - twas stress shutting her down and that's is how she copes with it (mentally tired etc) compared to my previous horse who would act out if stressed. She has settled into her new home and is almost back to normal now.
 
Hi thanks for post, I could believe it was stress shutting him down as he sounds just like your mare, he is very very sensitive, but he is in a small herd of 5-6 geldings, all very amicable, although not particularly exciting, he was out from approx 4pm in the afternoon to 9.30am the following morning and has just been turned around to out in the day until about 5pm to see if it makes a difference, he could go out 24/7 but that seems to makes no difference either, he just eats more! I asked for the YO to bring out the most energetic gelding in the herd on a hack with me to see if it perked him up and he still just trudged along, the other horse an ex-racer was very excited. The only time he has perked up is when he hacked out with my friends mare and decided to show off a few months ago and unfortunately she has now moved yards! It is like watching a horse with M.E., friendly enough but not able to get going and tiring very easily. As you say it's ticking things off the list, there seriously can't be much left to try, it's such a shame as after 12yrs of owning him I still haven't come across another horse I like more!
 
Well i think i would def get the vet out again and test for ems..they dont have to have had lami etc for you to look at the website,,,keep us updated after vet visit and results!
 
Thank you I will - sigh! I reckon if I manage to get to the bottom of this, then qualifying as a vet will be a piece of cake as I will have covered the whole syllabus of ailments with 1 horse!
 
Have you looked into EPSM OP? I think Catembi on here has/had a horse with this, and from memory one of this symptoms was severe lethargy when ridden.
 
You'd like to think EPSM/PSSM markers would have shown up in a routine blood test but worth looking in to as a lot of horses with it struggle to go forwards. Try asking your vet what the AST and CK levels were in his last blood test.

I'm in a similar position in that I'm convinced my horse is wrong but proving it isn't simple. My horse is never lethargic but relative to his usual cheerful cheeky buzzy little self he is showing me that he is stressed and hurting. He is having a muscle biopsy on Thursday as his bloods show high muscle enzymes but diet changes haven't fixed it so I need a proper diagnosis rather than a generic 'suspected muscle myopathy', otherwise I'm just guessing. Already done bone scan, some x rays and CT scan. Lucky for me my vet is on side and really listening to my concerns even though my horse looks a million dollars half the time.
 
Thank you both for taking the time to post, typically he was a bit perkier this morning, but I am sure that's because he's been in overnight & it's half term so he hasn't been ridden since Sunday and he was so sharp and spooky I couldn't even get him to walk around the edge of his turnout field to get to the farm for a hack so settled for another boring 20min trot in the school where he looked very pretty because he was so pumped full of adrenaline but we didn't actually achieve much, although his nerves did allow him to keep going for a bit longer than normal. I did threaten him with a trip to France if he carries on!

Kat I am so confused by all these different metabollic conditions, so far I have cushings/PPID which I know are the same thing, another has mentioned EMS so what is EPSm & PSSM - I know I must sound dumb but are they all similar things or subtly different versions of the same thing - I must sounds clueless but cushings is really the only one I've come across before.......

As for your horse I sincerely wish you good luck, you sound as if you are on the verge of becoming as broke as me - my vet practice seems to be doing very well tho! When you know there is something just not quite right it's hard to let it go, I hope you get a positive and straightforward outcome.
 
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I so love this forum - just posting to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply. I phoned my vets today to ask a few questions after a couple of posters had said their lethargic horses had very low cushings readings but responded amazingly to a small dose of pergolide. Apparently if the reading is under 29 (apart from Aug to Oct ) it's normal and in February when he was tested the result was 29.9 so I was told it was normal, no one suggested it was borderline or slightly above normal or to keep an eye on it! So the vet is about to be booked in to retest bloods on Thursday as if he does have cushings and he is tested before the end of October his reading in theory should rocket! I will also get EMS checked etc.

Does anyone think a reading at 29.9 is high enough for it to have an impact on his energy levels? He is a sensitive soul, so hoping we've caught it fairly early! Am now worried about his quality of life going forward, especially as he loves his turnout and hates soaked hay!
 
Hi again, My horse had a borderline reading initially but because of his symptoms, we started him on 1 tab a day of prascend ( pergolide) and yes the transformation was amazing, he was his old self again. After finding the website thelaminitissite and consequently the fb page, reading all the bumpf on there ( some of it i still dont totally understand as very technical), it appears you treat for the symptoms as opposed to the acth reading and it rings true in many cases i know of and read of...my horse was like a slug to ride, no energy, grumpy and low grade lami, he lost a lot of muscle tone but wasnt overweight..after 2 years and changing yards and management ( of him, feed, muzzling etc) he is muscling up nicely, jumping, hacking and back to his cheeky self so all in all i would say it is worth a try but please do read up on the aforementioned website as it is a font of information and the fb page is where andrea will answer any queries you may still have...keep us posted...
 
Also, worth asking if a pick me up would help. Some have mentioned global herbs, I put my mare on propell with amazing results. It's the bit about your horse having been ill and knocked for six that made me think of this. Some time ago, I bought an event mare who had just weaned off her foal. For the first 3 months, she came down with every sniffle and virus going. We could not get out of first gear despite following a really strict fittening programme (5 mins walk in week 1!). After various vet conversations she was given propell and I had a different horse. I do caveat this by saying that it sent a friends mare bonkers!
 
Hi Lucy thank you for that - I gave him some at the same time I switched feeds and it was always brilliant for him in the past but he had a massive reaction to the feed (I think) and because I gave the propell at the same time, I was worried about giving it to him again in case he had the same reaction. He had a course of global herbs restore which really helped but once the course stopped he became lethargic again and the vet told me to try a 2nd course of it and it didn't work. As you can tell the poor thing has had pretty much everything shoved at him to see if something works. Vet coming to do bloods again for cushings on Thursday after initially telling me they were fully booked so after a bit more of an argument, they have managed to fit me in! On it goes, I hope we find out what's wrong with my horse before he passes away from old age!
 
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