Equine Clicker Training Experiences/ Resources.

[Orca]

I haven't tried clicker training a horse before but I'm interested in using it with my mare.

Do any of you have any experiences you would share, thoughts on the matter or suggestions of resources I should look into?

We've got as far as 'charging the clicker' and using it to start whip de-sensitisation - really interesting to see immediate progress! Definitely keen to progress with it

 

[_OC_]

Tried it.....did nothing....brought a clicker...threw that away and just clicked using my mouth...TBH worked with a lady to try it out....me thinks I just got ripped off.....Good Luck though!

 

[Orca]

Ahaha, thank you, OC ��. Mouth click definitely means 'go faster' to her and I did try a variety of other noises (never a quiet evening in this house!) but couldn't produce any noise consistently the same.

I have been invited to a clicker workshop by our local dog group - but they won't let me take my mare along, insisting a dog would be more suitable. They haven't met my terrier!

 

[Echo24]

You can substitute the click with a word like "good" or "yes" as the click/word is the marker for the correct behaviour. There is a chap who does clicker with chickens as well as dogs and horses (he's an animal behaviourist that advocates positive reinforcement) and his stuff seems pretty good! His website is domesticatedmanners.com For equine specific clicker training there's a chap called Ben Hart who does this and his website is hartshorsemanship.com and he runs workshops down in Devon

 

[Orca]

Thanks Echo, I'll have a look at those sites now. Devon isn't a million miles away either, so there's a possibility

 

[Sleipnir]

I've started using it recently, although a skeptic, and I must admit, the results are immediate and tremendous. I use a vocal cue instead of the clicker itself (can't stand that clicking noise and it's so uncomfortable to carry around for me!) and I pay lots of attention so that my gelding doesn't start mugging me for treats, which he is prone to, so there's less treats and more scratching, petting, grazing and time-offs.

 

[Enfys]

Alexandra Kurland has an excellent site. http://www.theclickercenter.com/

http://www.equineclickertraining.com/

Her book also has some very interesting case studies.

I highly rate clicker training - IF - your horse is receptive. I have had some that absolutely could not give a toot about treats or affection, they simply did not want to do something for a click, disinterested or just plain simple? Others think it is the most wonderful thing ever, A students if you like, and they cannot learn fast enough.

I had a mini that would invent new tricks and behaviours in the hope that I would approve and reward him.

I once taught my hunter to ring a cowbell in his stable, he used to drive people on the yard nuts, because he'd hear someone and start banging the darn bell for attention!

I have a clicker, hate the thing, I do not have enough hands, I have a mouth, I click, or simply say 'Good' can't click with current horse as she associates clicking with 'get to work'

It is very much trial and error and finding what works for your horses,

 

[Supertrooper]

Taught my pony to pick his feet up, he went from planting his feet to picking them up and holding them in the air when I'm just stood at the side.

Didn't use a clicker, I use a kiss kiss noise as his yes

 

[SnowGo]

I'd turned my nose up at it for a fair while but over christmas my horse was at a yard with a terrible school so I wanted to do something else with her. Started with the click - treat, click- treat, etc., for about 2-3 minutes. Then when she started to get a bit mouthy I linked it to a behaviour. The one I chose was putting her head to the floor. Took her 3 click- treats to twig. You could see the cogs in her head turning, then she paused, looked at me and very deliberately put her head to the floor. I knew then that it was going to work with her. I think the horse has to have a certain personality for it. Mine loves to please people and the treat is a bonus! Her newest trick ("smile") is her favourite because its might not get her treat everytime but it makes the whole yard laugh. She thinks its fantastic! If no one reacts or sees it she just gets more exaggerated with her neck craned and her lip pulled up as high as possible. This ugly gurn can only be solved by someone paying her attention! She doesn't even need the click reward for that one trick, people fussing her is enough.

It all backs up why I would never train a horse to rear though. My mare will offer her behaviours whenever she wants attention or a treat. I'd rather not have a horse that randomly rears when it wants a treat! Mine did go through a nippy stage at one point (as in for a few days) but she quickly worked out that doing a trick was a better way to get a treat!

I also use the click for desensitising now. She knows that the click means that she's done something right. She links the click (which by the way is my voice not an actual clicker) to both a treat and verbal praise, so I don't need a constant supply of treats in my pocket. I just need to provide a treat with the click every so often for her to deem it worth trying. And as Sleipnir mentioned, she will also get a stroke or a scratch sometimes. Basically the click = good things in her eyes.

I had a mini that would invent new tricks and behaviours in the hope that I would approve and reward him.

^ Mine hasn't gone that far yet (only a matter of time) but she will combine tricks. There's nothing funnier than having a horse trying to smile, stamp and give you a kiss all at once!

 

[Orca]

Interesting to hear of horses making up their own or tricking for a treat.

I bumped into our vet today with Orca in hand and whilst stood chatting, Orca nosed her own side in a perfect lateral stretch - I'd only shown her this for a click once earlier on and hadn't put the two together I think she's going to be well suited to it.

I agree with not teaching rearing, etc - for me, there are just some behaviours I don't want performed within my space. I'm less inclined towards trick training and more inclined towards practical uses but I can see how likely this is to evolve. Besides, giving them the mental stimulation of trick learning is a practical use, isn't it?

 

[zaminda]

I look after a mare we have had huge problems clipping. The owners had a behaviourist out, and she suggested clicker training. Some progress was made with many hours work, but I am still not able to clip the da** thing! Not convinced it works for this horse. Sure it works for some though.

 

[alliwantforchristmas]

there are pitfalls so be careful - frustration is the main one. Also I would be wary of using it on a horse on restricted food intake because of weight, for example.

good article http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/clicker_training_horse_equine

Ben Hart is about the most knowlegable out there with regards to CT.

Hannah Dawson and Rachel Beddingfield are also more aware of the emotional/psychological implications of clicker training now.

It very much depends on the horse and owner. It is definitely effective if done correctly, but the fall out/side effects can be more than it's worth.

 

[Brightbay]

I would recommend joining a Facebook group called Empowered Equestrians. Lots of impartial advice, free resources on getting started and a whole group of professional trainers giving advice for free. Helps avoid common pitfalls like "I'm afraid my horse will do stuff when I don't want them to" (you need to learn how to "put the behaviour on cue" so that the horse does it when you cue but never when you don't) and "my horse just isn't motivated by treats" (if a horse isn't motivated by food, they're possibly dead - what's more likely to be the case is that the horse finds something about your training or the situation more concerning or frustrating than the possibility to earn food, or they haven't understood what you want and so shut down). And "I'm afraid my horse will only be doing it for the food" (if they're not doing it for the food, they're either doing it to get you to stop doing something they don't like, or they are doing it for the food, just not the food you thought (they've worked out that a series of behavioural steps lead to them getting dinner, so for example they come to the gate when they hear your car).

Just as with any training, it's best to have back up from people who know and have used the science. If I posted on here "I have been working with my horse for weeks to teach him to leg yield, but I think he's just one of those horses who can't go sideways", I am certain that most people would say "get a good instructor" rather than "yes, some horses just can't go sideways"

 

[Orca]

there are pitfalls so be careful - frustration is the main one. Also I would be wary of using it on a horse on restricted food intake because of weight, for example.

good article http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/clicker_training_horse_equine

Ben Hart is about the most knowlegable out there with regards to CT.

Hannah Dawson and Rachel Beddingfield are also more aware of the emotional/psychological implications of clicker training now.

It very much depends on the horse and owner. It is definitely effective if done correctly, but the fall out/side effects can be more than it's worth.

Thank you. My mare is on a low sugar diet but does still receive treats and is quite sensible about them. I ' charged' the clicker with high value treats but will be switching to slightly less desirable tidbits throughout the next few days. Definitely best to be aware of the potential cons, so thank you very much for your input ��.

I would recommend joining a Facebook group called Empowered Equestrians. Lots of impartial advice, free resources on getting started and a whole group of professional trainers giving advice for free. Helps avoid common pitfalls like "I'm afraid my horse will do stuff when I don't want them to" (you need to learn how to "put the behaviour on cue" so that the horse does it when you cue but never when you don't) and "my horse just isn't motivated by treats" (if a horse isn't motivated by food, they're possibly dead - what's more likely to be the case is that the horse finds something about your training or the situation more concerning or frustrating than the possibility to earn food, or they haven't understood what you want and so shut down). And "I'm afraid my horse will only be doing it for the food" (if they're not doing it for the food, they're either doing it to get you to stop doing something they don't like, or they are doing it for the food, just not the food you thought (they've worked out that a series of behavioural steps lead to them getting dinner, so for example they come to the gate when they hear your car).

Just as with any training, it's best to have back up from people who know and have used the science. If I posted on here "I have been working with my horse for weeks to teach him to leg yield, but I think he's just one of those horses who can't go sideways", I am certain that most people would say "get a good instructor" rather than "yes, some horses just can't go sideways"

That's really interesting! My vet told me today about a study done, during which TB types responded to clicker training but via pressure/ release and cob types responded to clicker training but via food based rewards. The TBs didn't respond so keenly to food and the cobs were comparatively oblivious to pressure/ release ��. I wish I had asked for a reference so that I could look it up! It stands to reason that not only do direction, timing and cues have to be accurate but the right reward found to suit the individual too ��.

 

[soloequestrian]

I've clicker trained my youngster and it has worked really well - if we hit snags now (e.g. 'suddenly I hate being brushed'), I can use the positive reinforcement to be very clear about the behaviour that's required. I use chopped carrot with her. I did try Lickit bars as an extra-special reward when she did something brilliant, but they just sent her sky high - she was so wired about the treat that she couldn't concentrate at all! Obviously less is more with this!

 

[Enfys]

It all backs up why I would never train a horse to rear though. My mare will offer her behaviours whenever she wants attention or a treat. I'd rather not have a horse that randomly rears when it wants a treat! Mine did go through a nippy stage at one point (as in for a few days) but she quickly worked out that doing a trick was a better way to get a treat!

I also use the click for desensitising now.


QUOTE]

I had a rearer (the cow bell horse) he would rear on the lunge, or when he was loose in the field, not aggressively but in play, but whatever, it wasn't fun, and people were wary of him.

I DID teach him to rear on cue, and then when he would do it on command, I never used it. He never reared again, and presumably didn't do it in the field because other owners stopped moaning about his behaviour. I think clicker training has its' uses for stopping abehvaiour as much as creating one, as you say SnowGo, de-sensitising in a fashion.

If you have a horse with that sort of personality they love to perform, and you have your hands full thinking up safe things for them to do. My mini would run to his log, stand on it and wave, he'd retrieve objects, anything he could pick up, he crossed his front legs once and I made such a fuss of him that he did it everytime he saw someone, taught himself basically. He'd ring bells, blow a horn, bow, say yes and no, such a greedy little showman.

Trickonometry is a fun book to have, lots of ideas :
http://www.trickhorse.com/

and then, for serious clicker training and performance there is www.imagineahorse.com

 

[Princess16]

I do clicker training with my gelding he loves it - it's good mental stimulation for him also.

The most important thing to remember is to click at the exact moment he responds, a second out and you can completely reverse the behaviour.

I bought the Alexandra Kirkland book not only does it show you how to do it but gets you into the horse's mindset which enables you to understand why they behave/react the way they do.

I personally have loads of fun doing it with my boy.

 

[Enfys]

Oh, something I meant to mention and forgot.

Clicker trained horses often need instruction manuals when changing ownership!

If you have trained a horse to do tricks, and subsequently sell him on, please, for his sake (and the new owners) write down the cues and behaviours. It doesn't hurt to ask when buying a horse either

I once bought a horse that would drop to his knees every time I went to cinch him up, naturally I went down all the normal routes until the vet was at the barn one day and said
"Oh, you have old Magic, did A tell you about him? "
"Uh, noooooooo "

He had an entire repertoire of tricks, touching his girth line was a cue to bow.

 

[Orca]

Oh, something I meant to mention and forgot.

Clicker trained horses often need instruction manuals when changing ownership!

If you have trained a horse to do tricks, and subsequently sell him on, please, for his sake (and the new owners) write down the cues and behaviours. It doesn't hurt to ask when buying a horse either

I once bought a horse that would drop to his knees every time I went to cinch him up, naturally I went down all the normal routes until the vet was at the barn one day and said
"Oh, you have old Magic, did A tell you about him? "
"Uh, noooooooo "

He had an entire repertoire of tricks, touching his girth line was a cue to bow.

I did chuckle at this

With any luck, she'll be with us for a lifetime but if not, I'll keep that in mind!

This does raise a query I had though, do you train to physical cues, gestures, words or a mixture?

 

[dollyanna]

I have clicker trained my guys since they were foals. They are both very different and use it differently - one enjoys games but as yet is not so keen on more serious stuff so we make serious stuff (eg leading) into a game by putting cones out! Apparently this makes it more fund :-D
The other really has no time for games, it is all work work work for her but she does love targetting, so we use this in as many ways as we can - so far loading, clipping, scary things when out (ask her to target and she isn't scared any more.)
It is vital to be clear with your cues and never to reward if you didn't cue if you don't want behaviours waved in your face. It is also really important to be aware of your reward delivery - for some this can be lax but for others like my boy it has to be spot on otherwise he gets anxious.
The reward has to be what your horse choose, not you. My boy has always worked for food, any food. My girl never used to take food from a human but loved a back leg scratch so her rewards for a long time were scratches, and I still use these as much as food for her - and her food needs to be high value most of the time.
It is great for tricks, but it's real strength lies in everyday training for me - you can literally do anything with a clicker if you can get the method in your head. Most people try and do to much too soon - less is more, both with length of training sessions and the amount you ask them to do. Baby steps all the time, some can cope with being pushed to do bigger steps but many will get very frustrated because they don't understand what is being asked of them. Any frustration and it is a signal to backtrack and look at what went wrong.
It is great for really learning how to see subtle signals from your horse too - you can see when they are happy, when they are ready to move on, when they are frustrated, when they are tired. Sometimes they need thinking time, to just wander and graze for a moment and then come back ready to move on.
Alexandra Kurland's books and videos are excellent, but also have a look on youtube - kikopup is a dog trainer but has excellent clicker training videos which demonstrate timing and breaking things down very nicely. Horses move and think slower though, so give them the time they need! Practise with a human if you can, it really helps with perfecting timing before you take it to the horse.
Lastly, I can get about 50 rewards from one carrot - slice lengthways twice so it is quartered and then chop widthways to make lots of triangles. Rewards don't have to be big, often the less chewing needed the better as prolonged eating breaks up the rhythm of the training. Agrobs hay cobs are also great and are just hay but make sure they have access to water between training sessions as they are dry.

 

[alliwantforchristmas]

Thank you. My mare is on a low sugar diet but does still receive treats and is quite sensible about them. I ' charged' the clicker with high value treats but will be switching to slightly less desirable tidbits throughout the next few days. Definitely best to be aware of the potential cons, so thank you very much for your input
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...periences-Resources/page2#98eLTzlDCMA82Lh6.99

whatever you give, give lots of it - goes against what a lot of people say/think but see Panksepp and the SEEKING system - you have activated it, so now you want to satisfy it.

Have a look at Patricia Barlow Irick and Mustang Camp for some truly inspirational stuff that can be achieved with +R.

Also please be aware that clicker training with dogs and horses is completely different - see Ben Hart's stuff for this. I really hope it works for your mare ... when it does it is mind blowing

 

[dollyanna]

Absolutely, don't be stingy on the clicks or rewards!

In theory clicker training should work for any animal, any species - it just depends on finding the right reward for the animal and the understanding of the trainer to get the best.

 

[spookypony]

I second (third? fourth?) Alexandra Kurland's resources; she has an online course now too. I attended one of her clinics, and try to get to a clicker clinic every year. None of us uses a clicker; I have a variation on a tongue noise for the marker signal. What the signal is, is irrelevant, provided it is clear and quick, and can be reserved for that purpose. Similarly, the reward can be anything that the animal perceives as a reward; it might even be moving away from an animal that feels pressured by your presence.

The great power is in the precision, which allows you to break down behaviours into tiny increments, and in making the animal in charge of its own learning, in the sense that it chooses to offer the behaviour to get the reward. It's not so useful if you're under time pressure to get something done: at that point, you have to decide either to stay true to the approach and take the time needed, or to force the issue. I did the latter regarding loading, because I didn't want to lose a season to a reluctant loader, and I'm not really proud of that decision, though tbh I'd probably do it again. I find it really useful for my worried pony, because he seems to appreciate being asked and allowed to work out problems on his own (and he likes treats). Tiny bits of carrot or apple work for him (he's metabolic).

 

[Enfys]

This does raise a query I had though, do you train to physical cues, gestures, words or a mixture?

I use verbal, gestures and physical cues, which I can interchange, gestures work better from a distance, for example, Estrella will come to call, but I can 'call' her just by making 'come here' gestures with my hand. Physical and verbal cues mainly for ridden or ground work.

Everyone uses different cues personal to them and their individual horse which is why the instruction manual is so important.

My red mare is highly sensitive and prefers not to be touched too much, she prefers gestures and words to touch. On the other hand, the buckskin is touchy touchy and reacts better to physical touch, she's a bit of a butterfly brain and gestures seem to get lost between eyes and brain

 

[Orca]

Thanks all, this is so interesting!

We have recently had trouble with my mare crowding on lunge, so I think our first actual task will be working towards using cones to create a lunge circle. I think it might be Alexandra Kurland's website where I'm reading how to go about it ��

 

[BBP]

I love playing with that stuff with my horse, it adds a lot of variety to our sessions. I do have a clicker and do use it, but generally use the German for yes and good 'Ja' and 'gute' as they don't sound much like other words and with the right enthusiasm he really gets that it's the right thing. He is extremely receptive to this kind of training. So far he knows sideways away from and towards you, rein back (even if I'm standing 20m away stood behind him), lowers his head (working on this to reduce his heart rate when over excited), spins a circle, pushes a football (his favourite, he will do this for hours pushing with nose and dribbling with front legs), picks things up and gives them to me, fetches toys, he comes to call, if I stand on a mounting block somewhere in the arena I can call him over and he will line up next to the block so I can vault on bareback (this one is handy!). He bows, we are working on lying down, and he sits.

These all sound like silly things but they all mean spending time together and we both genuinely enjoy them. I don't use them instead of riding my horse, but I'll do them at the end of a schooling session or in the field.

I've learned a lot over the years we've been playing. I used to try to do too much and drill the point home. Now I do things 5 times max in a session, I don't pick too many things to try in one session. I use low value treats for the stuff he finds easy and has down pat but the hard stuff gets high value high volume treats, so when he has reined back the whole length of the arena without me moving, he gets a big big reward and won't get asked to do it often. This has worked brilliantly for me.

You do have to be careful though, after we learned we could do side pass towards me, he started doing it without a cue in the field towards the other girl who poo picks it...it's a bit disconcerting when a horse comes crabbing sideways towards you and you don't know why. That's because I over did it and he was over hyped about it. I also have to ask other people not to cue him as I have set number of times a week or s month I'll do something and if other people cue it he starts just throwing it at anyone as an answer.

He is very funny, if you ask him something he doesn't understand he will go through the full repertoire of tricks til he figures it out. He will throw in Spanish walk if he's in doubt about anything. That can lead to frustration if they don't get it right and usually means I have made a cue that isn't distinct from others and haven't made it clear what I'm asking.

 

[satinbaze]

For a very interesting operant conditioning read try "lads before the wind" by Karen Pryor it's the diary of her time as a dolphin trainer in US. Well written and an absolutely facinating insite to animal training.

 

[lrw0250]

Our little welsh mare had a bad experience with a farrier and became difficult to trim. When we moved yards I switched to a barefoot trimmer who also works with rehabing rescues and she recommended clicker training for her visits by getting pony to target my hand, so she touches it with nose, I make a low "clock" noise and she gets a little treat. It keeps her focused and standing nicely. Pony picked it up very quickly and I tried using it for other things such as practice picking up feet, standing still etc. but I found she constantly wanted to target and "play" so we now only use it for trimming visits.

 

[Illusion100]

I used clicker tarining to teach my dog basic commands and a few tricks when he was a puppy. Each command/trick has both a verbal and a visual cue so can ask him either way. He loved his clicker training. For the 'click' I snapped my fingers as he was most responsive to it.

Also use clicker training with my horse, as I have limited strength/energy to quietly persist physically when he strongly objected to things like having flyspray/suncream on or being wormed with a syringe. He's easy peasy now with the syringe/suncream but flyspray still tends to need to be broken down into a couple of stages. I also use clicker training for anything I want him to have a positive opinion of such as getting tacked up and 'scary' objects. On occassion I've also employed it to get him to stand quietly for trimming as he could be rather difficult. He really enjoys it too and 'getting it right' makes him feel proud of himself, which is great as he can be a bit insecure in himself and improves his self confidence. He has also learnt very basic targeting. For the click, I use my mouth but it's more of a 'cluck' than the normal 'clicking' noise we make to encourage, so it doesn't cause confusion.

That said, I personally don't think clicker training should be used as a single training method. I also employ the use of a chain in situations where there might be a volatile reaction and always use a chain when re-training ground manners, always. I'm also a big fan of pressure and release which I use constantly.

For example, if a horse won't tolerate a syringe, usually I'd put the chain on and make sure the horse is working well off pressure and release, then incorporate the clicker training. Say when I get to the stage of touching the syringe to the muzzle and they resist, pressure is maintained until they stop reacting, then I remove all pressure while clicking and give a treat. They soon learn the quickest way to get 'rid' of what they don't want to tolerate is to stand quietly and let someone get on with it!

That said, for the last one that needed some sedalin and wouldn't have a syringe near, I had only a heacollar (no rope) to use. So pressure and release was the only tool in my arsenal. Took about 10 mins from dragging me round stable and trying to squash me against the wall to standing still to be syringed with minimal fuss. I was knackered after it though!

 

[Orca]

Thank you all, it's so interesting to hear of how you incorporate clicking into daily life with your horses and with other training methods. We also use pressure/ release (dually rather than a chain for us but a similar concept!) and it's really helpful to see how both can be used together - although we won't need it for worming. The last time I wormed her, she chased me around for the rest of the syringe

...so this morning we worked on anti-mugging via clicker training! She got it within a couple of minutes. This is a task I expected her to find quite difficult, given her usual behaviour