Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
They would be imported large numbers of poor quality horses already arrive here from Eastern Europe .
Equine Crisis UK
- Thread starter irish_only
- Start date
They would be imported large numbers of poor quality horses already arrive here from Eastern Europe .
Regandal
Well-Known Member
Do they? I had no idea.
LinzyD
Well-Known Member
Soz, massively long post folks. I have a lot to say about this issue...
It needs a multi-pronged, multi-agency, strategically planned solution that tackles things from the bottom up and the top down at the same time, controlled centrally but involving all organisations and individuals:
- recognition of horses as agricultural animals in the same way as cattle, with movement permissions granted via annual competition/leisure horse licences and/or breed stock licences for those moved to market/sale/other.
- quotas imposed in order to limit the over-breeding of certain breeds whenever there is no market for them.
- central equine database that actually does what it is supposed to, and ONE passport issuing agency with breed societies overstamping rather than issuing passports, and actual enforcement of passporting and microchipping.
- a single agency properly resourced and empowered to prosecute using current legislation. The issue is not that we don't have laws, but that the existing, very good laws are not enforced due to lack of funding and accountability.
- licencing of horse owners, premises where horses are kept, and all breeders, and actual enforcement of this NO MATTER which sector of society is involved, with fines imposed, property seized, horses impounded/culled wherever there is non-compliance.
- inspections of all situations where horses are bred in significant numbers prior to the issuing of annual licences - including going round the mountains/moors if necessary.
- national amnesty for passporting/castration/disposal
- a cull to get numbers under control and to a sustainable level after amnesty
- a range of affordable or cost-free, humane disposal options including: meat trade, re-establishment and better control of local abattoirs (which have all been closed down), pet food, and other routes that some find unpalatable. Dumping of dead and near-dead horses is entirely due to the fact that a horse carcass has absolutely no value whatsoever, and on the contrary the breaking up and disposal of a carcass costs more than non-flesh 'usable' parts skins, bones, etc. are worth. This one really makes me more cross than anything else. It is no wonder that a horse gets dumped on a rubbish tip, still alive and with a broken neck. The law allowed this animal to be bred, but has also created a situation in which it costs too much money to dispose of it in any other way. If the carcass were worth something then at least the ******** responsible might have been prompted to get some cash out of the situation and perhaps seek a more humane disposal route.
- minimum values set for carcasses and live animals whether sold via market or privately, and meaning that 'rescue' buys would be prohibitive and there would be an incentive to take horses for slaughter rather than dump them to die.
- greater restrictions on importing low value horses, for example any without a breeding/competition/stock licence that hasn't already been granted by the UK.
And it would all cost an absolute fortune to implement and the cost of it would have to be borne by law-abiding horse owners paying more for passporting, paying for licences of various types, and paying more for the purchase of horses in the first place. Despite that I'd say that I'd be in favour of a whole raft of these measures even if it cost me more personally. It would bring us closer to some of the models in mainland Europe where, in some countries, fewer low value, indiscriminately bred animals come in to existence, because the regulations about competing, etc. mean that there is no market for horses without a four-generation pedigree. I'm not saying that is the whole solution - we have a far greater range of horse-related activities in this country for all sorts of non-pedigree horses - but it's an element of a multi-part solution.
And the authorities, government and some of the general public have completely double standards when it comes to upholding traditional ways of life. So hunting with hounds was banned for reasons of animal welfare, despite destroying rural communities, traditional ways of life, jobs, etc., but those same authorities won't tackle the issue of indiscriminate over-breeding in some quarters because they claim to recognise that horse breeding is part of a traditional way of life... Legitimate breeders of some of the absolutely fantastic traditionally bred horses produced in this sector would have nothing to fear from licencing and inspections IMO and those that do have something to fear are not actually upholding tradition at all, merely exploiting horses and a gullible public who buy in order to 'rescue'.
It would take everything that we've all suggested, and more besides, to tackle the situation and bring about a situation where welfare cases are few and far between rather than an everyday occurrence. Anything less is just scratching at the surface.
It needs a multi-pronged, multi-agency, strategically planned solution that tackles things from the bottom up and the top down at the same time, controlled centrally but involving all organisations and individuals:
- recognition of horses as agricultural animals in the same way as cattle, with movement permissions granted via annual competition/leisure horse licences and/or breed stock licences for those moved to market/sale/other.
- quotas imposed in order to limit the over-breeding of certain breeds whenever there is no market for them.
- central equine database that actually does what it is supposed to, and ONE passport issuing agency with breed societies overstamping rather than issuing passports, and actual enforcement of passporting and microchipping.
- a single agency properly resourced and empowered to prosecute using current legislation. The issue is not that we don't have laws, but that the existing, very good laws are not enforced due to lack of funding and accountability.
- licencing of horse owners, premises where horses are kept, and all breeders, and actual enforcement of this NO MATTER which sector of society is involved, with fines imposed, property seized, horses impounded/culled wherever there is non-compliance.
- inspections of all situations where horses are bred in significant numbers prior to the issuing of annual licences - including going round the mountains/moors if necessary.
- national amnesty for passporting/castration/disposal
- a cull to get numbers under control and to a sustainable level after amnesty
- a range of affordable or cost-free, humane disposal options including: meat trade, re-establishment and better control of local abattoirs (which have all been closed down), pet food, and other routes that some find unpalatable. Dumping of dead and near-dead horses is entirely due to the fact that a horse carcass has absolutely no value whatsoever, and on the contrary the breaking up and disposal of a carcass costs more than non-flesh 'usable' parts skins, bones, etc. are worth. This one really makes me more cross than anything else. It is no wonder that a horse gets dumped on a rubbish tip, still alive and with a broken neck. The law allowed this animal to be bred, but has also created a situation in which it costs too much money to dispose of it in any other way. If the carcass were worth something then at least the ******** responsible might have been prompted to get some cash out of the situation and perhaps seek a more humane disposal route.
- minimum values set for carcasses and live animals whether sold via market or privately, and meaning that 'rescue' buys would be prohibitive and there would be an incentive to take horses for slaughter rather than dump them to die.
- greater restrictions on importing low value horses, for example any without a breeding/competition/stock licence that hasn't already been granted by the UK.
And it would all cost an absolute fortune to implement and the cost of it would have to be borne by law-abiding horse owners paying more for passporting, paying for licences of various types, and paying more for the purchase of horses in the first place. Despite that I'd say that I'd be in favour of a whole raft of these measures even if it cost me more personally. It would bring us closer to some of the models in mainland Europe where, in some countries, fewer low value, indiscriminately bred animals come in to existence, because the regulations about competing, etc. mean that there is no market for horses without a four-generation pedigree. I'm not saying that is the whole solution - we have a far greater range of horse-related activities in this country for all sorts of non-pedigree horses - but it's an element of a multi-part solution.
And the authorities, government and some of the general public have completely double standards when it comes to upholding traditional ways of life. So hunting with hounds was banned for reasons of animal welfare, despite destroying rural communities, traditional ways of life, jobs, etc., but those same authorities won't tackle the issue of indiscriminate over-breeding in some quarters because they claim to recognise that horse breeding is part of a traditional way of life... Legitimate breeders of some of the absolutely fantastic traditionally bred horses produced in this sector would have nothing to fear from licencing and inspections IMO and those that do have something to fear are not actually upholding tradition at all, merely exploiting horses and a gullible public who buy in order to 'rescue'.
It would take everything that we've all suggested, and more besides, to tackle the situation and bring about a situation where welfare cases are few and far between rather than an everyday occurrence. Anything less is just scratching at the surface.
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cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
Nope.....really don't want to live in your world!
LinzyD
Well-Known Member
I don't think many would, Cobgoblin. As you say, it'd be the good owners/breeders effectively being punished for the bad, who would still find ways to evade. I actually think a lot could be achieved by better use of the laws we already have.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
This is about the most comprehensive and realistic post I've seen on this topic. I used to write equally lengthy and thought out posts about this but quickly realised that sadly, too many people find it easier to bury their heads than accept what we, as humans have done.
Well written, well thought and thank goodness for some sense.
None of us do. We don't have a choice though. One of the things I find most upsetting about the human race is our ability to create problems on one hand and refuse to accept how we need to take responsibility on the other.
The equine welfare crisis isn't new. We all understand the mechanics of it, but not so many people are able to recognise their own role in how it is able to carry on so badly.
There's a lot that makes me not want to live in this world as it is, without the harsh realities of how we might have to correct our failings. It's not a choice we should be able to make though.
If we bury our heads in the sand, we let down every animal that needs us.
Cobbytype
Well-Known Member
Perhaps a simple solution to part of the problem would be to offer free castration for a limited time... say a year. It seems ironic that fillies are valued and colts are not, when the demand for geldings is arguably higher than for mares.
We cannot knock the gypsy horses too much, some of them are superb and my horse of a lifetime, a lovely coloured maxi cob, was purchased from a traveller. If a castration service were offered it would give those with an abundance of colts/stallions a chance to gain control of their breeding and to keep those colts/stallions entire which have the best conformation/bloodlines/temperaments.
We cannot knock the gypsy horses too much, some of them are superb and my horse of a lifetime, a lovely coloured maxi cob, was purchased from a traveller. If a castration service were offered it would give those with an abundance of colts/stallions a chance to gain control of their breeding and to keep those colts/stallions entire which have the best conformation/bloodlines/temperaments.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
The demand for geldings is higher in the higher levels of the industry. At the bottom of the pile, mares are the ones who can churn out foal after foal and they are far more useful and valuable to these breeders than a colt.
Nobody is knocking gypsy horses. In fact, the market for them is huge now and well put together, responsibly reared vanners and cobs are fetching more money than many imported warmbloods because there's a whole new sub industry now of owners who just want something to enjoy and be safe on.
As for free castration, although not entirely free, the BHS has been running a scheme, very successfully and targeted at the communities of travellers that need it most for some time now. They are doing what they can at this time to tackle the problem at the roots and this is one of the ways they are doing it.
Roly Owers, the Chief Executive of World Horse Welfare is doing some fantastic work behind the scenes to make advances in tackling the problem. It's not that these things aren't happening, we just have everything ar$e backwards in this country and papers and online media groups prefer to cover the failings, not the accomplishments of those in the industry.
LinzyD
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your comments GG. I was afraid I'd rather gone on... I too have been involved with a very effective equine charity for a long time. I share your view of humanity.
To others, be aware that some of the best bred gypsy cobs change hands for literally hundreds of thousands of pounds. Seriously. I know this first hand. I think this sector represents both the best and the worst of horse breeding values, and it's true that many welfare cases fall in to the lower end gypsy cob type, but the welfare problem we have cuts across all breeds, all types and all sectors of horse owners.
To others, be aware that some of the best bred gypsy cobs change hands for literally hundreds of thousands of pounds. Seriously. I know this first hand. I think this sector represents both the best and the worst of horse breeding values, and it's true that many welfare cases fall in to the lower end gypsy cob type, but the welfare problem we have cuts across all breeds, all types and all sectors of horse owners.
Cobbytype
Well-Known Member
Very informative GG (no I'm not being sarcastic). I guess it is just a matter of plugging away.
I live near a town which has one of the largest traveller communities in the UK. There has been a recent clamp down on fly grazing, particularly where horses have been tethered near to roads and the problem has been reduced somewhat by a proactive stance taken by the authorities. Generally there doesn't seem to be as many horses around as there were years ago, but perhaps they are just tethered in more isolated locations? I see a few for sale but they are usually healthy driving cobs with a decent price tag attached. I imagine the closure of the local horse auction saw the bottom fall out of the market for the poorer quality horses around here?
_GG_
Well-Known Member
I didn't read it as sarcasm, lol. Little disappointed though, love a little (read *a lot*) of sarcasm me
If a local auction house has closed, those who can't transport horses longer distances will have little to gain by still breeding them.
Personally, I think there needs to be a minimum value put on horses sold to private or commercial, non-slaughter buyers. If you set that limit at £500 for example, it will eliminate the vast majority of private buyers and dealers that are either out to make a quick buck or want to "rescue" a horse or pony from the meat man. Let the low end auctions be just for the meat trade. Not all horses that go to the meat man go into the food chain. The number of things made using horse by-products is huge and there are ways to promote the use of horse meat, fit for human consumption or not.
At least by doing that, the horses at that level of an auction are taken out of the cycle. They meet a humane end (something that would be better regulated with more support) and they don't live with the very very real risk of ending up back at the sales again and again, left in a field or flung into the low value market of being passed from pillar to post.
Do I like that idea? No. Just like I don't like the idea of a cull...but I would support both, just as I would support seeing horse meat in our butchers for human consumption. It's about being realistic and managing the industry in a way that protects the welfare of the horses first.
There are however, many reasons that won't work. LinzyD's post shares most of my thoughts so no need to repeat, but it's not something that will ever happen unless the vast majority of humans, not just horse people, open their eyes and start to realise that we have a large number of huge messes to clear up and doing it won't be pretty or comfortable, but will be right.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Gosh...some of the ranches in America are bonkers. The money that changes hands for certain bloodlines is astonishing. Same with Welshies and lots of UK Native breeds. They love them.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I didn't read it as sarcasm, lol. Little disappointed though, love a little (read *a lot*) of sarcasm me
If a local auction house has closed, those who can't transport horses longer distances will have little to gain by still breeding them.
Personally, I think there needs to be a minimum value put on horses sold to private or commercial, non-slaughter buyers. If you set that limit at £500 for example, it will eliminate the vast majority of private buyers and dealers that are either out to make a quick buck or want to "rescue" a horse or pony from the meat man. Let the low end auctions be just for the meat trade. Not all horses that go to the meat man go into the food chain. The number of things made using horse by-products is huge and there are ways to promote the use of horse meat, fit for human consumption or not.
At least by doing that, the horses at that level of an auction are taken out of the cycle. They meet a humane end (something that would be better regulated with more support) and they don't live with the very very real risk of ending up back at the sales again and again, left in a field or flung into the low value market of being passed from pillar to post.
Do I like that idea? No. Just like I don't like the idea of a cull...but I would support both, just as I would support seeing horse meat in our butchers for human consumption. It's about being realistic and managing the industry in a way that protects the welfare of the horses first.
There are however, many reasons that won't work. LinzyD's post shares most of my thoughts so no need to repeat, but it's not something that will ever happen unless the vast majority of humans, not just horse people, open their eyes and start to realise that we have a large number of huge messes to clear up and doing it won't be pretty or comfortable, but will be right.
Sorry but by setting a minimum price all you do is take away peoples choice whether to breed or not and who he hell is going to police it.
The auction prices will eventually bring about the change you want ,who can carry on producing colts that sell for a fiver and be happy it cost a hell of a lot more to get them into the sale by the time their chipped and passported. I am sorry but these people who say breeding for the meatman show very little understanding of their glib comments. No body breeds to sell at a loss however any breeding will have its own supply of animals that need disposing of for various reasons even those breeding high end TBs or sports horses and since the near ban on these horses getting into the food chain these waste horses to me have become more of an issue than the travellers horses as they have been bought up by people lower down the levels who wouldnt know a good horse if it kicked them in the head ,however it has names on its passport theyve heard of so it must be good. What I cannot understand why oh why can I get rid of a fully grown 800kg cow carcass for £80 yet a horse will be £200 min they both end up in a skip for the power station . Bringing down the cost of disposal would help greatly and its an area that needs looking at
On the whole the travelling community are cutting back big time on horses especially amongst the younger ones,to the older ones it is a way of life but like lots of communities over the years their priorities change. I have worked with one group on the Cambs /norfolk border and for the last two seasons no foals have been born. I am afraid for time immortal colts have always been a byproduct of traveller breeding and in days gone by most were consumed within their own groups.
DD
Well-Known Member
the problem shouldn't be that owners have to pay for disposal. Its like saying its not fair that owners need to pay for food and livery. its part of ownership. What is the problem is that passporting isn't policed. Trading standards should be allowed to enter any premises and scan horses. those not chipped should be destroyed immediately. Any straying or illegally grazed horses not claimed after a week should be destroyed. The Gov could pay for this. after a year or two the problem would be solved. All natives should be chipped and all foals too. the legislation needs tightening up. And tethering should be banned
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Trading standards can !! they choose not to ! most straying or illegally grazed horses are indeed destroyed! Nothing needs tightening up its just enforcement and thats a question for those that do it.
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
It's not just America, it's here as well.
I have a cob by a very famous gypsy stallion, from a very famous bloodline....he is a gelding, which isn't surprising as the stallion's owner has only allowed one of his colts to remain entire....and he was sold abroad...I dread to think what his price tag was.
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
I agree with this. Education is the way forwards. A cull only works once and the backlash would prevent a second, whereas education lasts a long time. Unfortunately the excess and poor 'high end' horses are being bred by people who should already have this education....so one could say that these are more of a problem in the long term.
I think if the British were going to take to eating horsemeat it would have happened before now. I certainly wouldn't want to see horsemeat in the butchers...just as I wouldn't want to see dog or cat meat...and there are plenty of unwanted dogs and cats.
tristar
Well-Known Member
having witnessed and had to pick up the pieces several times, i would say that travellers for the most part should be outlawed and banned from having animals of any kind.
the word culture implies civilisation, there is no culture in starving animals, and when i say starving i mean STARVING.
driving yearlings on the road at full pelt with shoes on is not CULTURED, neither is beating them with metal poles, leaving a yearling tied to a trailer for 36 hours with no food and water until it is so tangled it can`t move is not CULTURED.
the number of times i have seen animals left with NO FOOD and i mean no food and NO WATER and when i say left i mean for weeks leaves me no alternative but to say if you changed the word to CULTURE to BARBARIC it would be a more accurate description of the live of many travellers horses
the word culture implies civilisation, there is no culture in starving animals, and when i say starving i mean STARVING.
driving yearlings on the road at full pelt with shoes on is not CULTURED, neither is beating them with metal poles, leaving a yearling tied to a trailer for 36 hours with no food and water until it is so tangled it can`t move is not CULTURED.
the number of times i have seen animals left with NO FOOD and i mean no food and NO WATER and when i say left i mean for weeks leaves me no alternative but to say if you changed the word to CULTURE to BARBARIC it would be a more accurate description of the live of many travellers horses
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
seriously, lets not go there again!
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
yes, great post-am so sick of people fannying around the subject about who is breeding these low end cobs found abandoned all over the place and selling foals for pittance.
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
And do you seriously think banning them would make any difference? Of course it wouldn't. The animals would just be shifted around to another family member.
Education in all forms is the answer. If you only mix with others that do the same, if you are barely literate or not literate at all...then you carry on making the same mistakes as those before you despite the fact that the world is changing.
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tristar
Well-Known Member
banned and implemented, for once make a law and enforce it
clevergirl
New User
I know the slaughtered horses cannot enter the human food chain... but what about pet food and meat for zoo animals? Or is that currently the done thing anyway?
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Have you ever actually made the effort to come from the other side ! its a big eye opener but talking to them does make a difference they have never been shown another way . They are aware they have a problem but need help dealing with it.
LinzyD
Well-Known Member
Education is part of a multi-part solution, Cobgoblin. Education alone won't work any more than any one of the suggestions people have put forward. Our society is the product of over two thousand years of 'education' and at least a century of the impact of Victorian philanthropy and dissemination of education, and yet here we are with child abuse allegations in the headlines, terrorist threats in public places, and murder in our streets. No-one is a greater advocate of education than me - it's my life - but it's a long drawn process and can only succeed with an openness to be educated, and even then there are some who will remain beyond reach. It's always the case that those who benefit most from any form of education are those who are best able to access it, and those who need it the most remain unreachable. Yes, education has its place, but sadly it's not the whole solution.
D66
Well-Known Member
this ^^^^^
The laws we already have should be enforced, but a single passporting agency would help.
If you can breed a foal for free and fly-graze it for free, the £10 you might get for it at auction is profit.
Horse shows should also have random chip/passport checks.
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Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
They were doing this locally to me a few years back. The problem was they were charging something like £75 in an area where colt castration was being done by vets for £100. They did get a reasonable uptake though. However that reasonable uptake of 10 colts, still left hundreds tethered within a square mile, it was literally a drop in the ocean.
LinzyD
Well-Known Member
And to those who say that a cull wouldn't work. Again, you're right if it was just a cull on its own. A cull too would be one strand of a multi-strand approach. A one-off to bring numbers to a sustainable level.
Liken it to a health problem in your horse. Let's say ulcers, as those are a common theme on the forum. Your horse has ulcers. If you only treat the current acute problem, with medication only, as a short, sharp remedy, of course you are going to get a recurrence. To get the best result you treat the immediate, acute problem with a short-term remedy of medication (amnesty, cull, etc) and you change your whole management routine to prevent recurrence (strengthening and enforcement of legislation) and if necessary in order to achieve all of this you get advice on how to go about it (education).
Liken it to a health problem in your horse. Let's say ulcers, as those are a common theme on the forum. Your horse has ulcers. If you only treat the current acute problem, with medication only, as a short, sharp remedy, of course you are going to get a recurrence. To get the best result you treat the immediate, acute problem with a short-term remedy of medication (amnesty, cull, etc) and you change your whole management routine to prevent recurrence (strengthening and enforcement of legislation) and if necessary in order to achieve all of this you get advice on how to go about it (education).
Cortez
Tough but Fair
A cull does indeed work, but only if it is ongoing and continues to remove the unwanted animals and does not reward those that produce them.
tristar
Well-Known Member
i was talking to rescue people about this and of course education is a huge part of helping the horses i suggested, but illiteracy is no reason or excuse for starving animals, indeed a friend of mine cannot read and takes wonderful care of his animals, and he is a first time horse owner, i`m thinking of buying a violin for when the next pathetic excuse comes up so i can play a sad tune.
what kind of tests are undertaken before breeding from the better cobs? radio protocol? genetic disorders? are they tested for performance in any way? are they vetted before bred from? too many questions are unanswered.
back to the culture thing, those horses are left tethered, most of them 24 7, barely able to move, years ago when travellers had horses they moved from place to place the horses had long periods of of excersize
it is a fundamental right of horses under eu law to have freedom of movement
what kind of tests are undertaken before breeding from the better cobs? radio protocol? genetic disorders? are they tested for performance in any way? are they vetted before bred from? too many questions are unanswered.
back to the culture thing, those horses are left tethered, most of them 24 7, barely able to move, years ago when travellers had horses they moved from place to place the horses had long periods of of excersize
it is a fundamental right of horses under eu law to have freedom of movement