Equine dentist North Yorks

pony_mad_pat

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Can any one recommend one in north yorks area, i have a parrot mouthed horse that needs a kind person to do his teeth as he's easily upset
 

moorse

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Paul Waudby is fabulous! He spends lots of time making sure horses are comfortable with him, the gag and his equipment before he even thinks about doing any rasping. 3 of ours have had to be sedated to be done in the past and he did them all with no problems at all!
 

pony_mad_pat

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thanks for that i have heard of some horror stories of people passing themselves off as EDT and using power tools when they are not qualified to do so,
and getting ripped off in the process, horses being misdiagnosed and being treated without adequate pain relief the list goes on
 

EQUISCENE

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thanks for that i have heard of some horror stories of people passing themselves off as EDT and using power tools when they are not qualified to do so,
and getting ripped off in the process, horses being misdiagnosed and being treated without adequate pain relief the list goes on

I understood that power tools/ iv sedation were only allowed to be used by qualified vets, if so Julian Rishworth at Minster is your man!
 

Ludi-doodi

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Sally Kingsley - www.s4edt.com On the plus side she's a qualified vet and can sedate if necessary without the expense of another vet in attendance. Very good and thorough. Prefers to come for more than one horse, but it's not a deal breaker you might just have to pay a bit more
 

ponydentist

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you see there is very much confusion here.. For instance, one poster believes that only vets can use power operated instruments and so recommends a vet..but it just so happens that the vet she recomends has not been examined and tested on the use of such equipment and MAY have only undertaken minimal training (two day courses are all that is currently available on this subject and is largly theoretical and involves the use of dead horses heads and not live animals) for vets in the UK. So, you see where the confusion lies and what a bit of a tangled web the whole thing is. Veterinary surgeons in the UK are "qualfied" i Equine Dentistry only in a "carte blanche" manner, i.e it is covered in one module of a six year degree course and this coverage training isvery theoretical with very little practical aspect. Therefore any further training in the subject is undertaken post graduately. This issue is componded further by the problem that any such postgraduate training is only offered in one or two day duration courses.Modern Equine Dentistry is a Science

Unfortunately, for the horse, not all practitioners involved in horsecare, e.g. vets, dentists, farriers, chiropactors, etc etc etc, posess good, sound, proper horsemanship skills and are able to effectively communicate with horses. This is very saddening.

From a professional point of view, there are different professional associations which have been established, in the main, to ensure that there is a uniformed standard of treatment, care and professional conduct undertaken by the members of these associations. For instance, all registered farriers must have done an appropriate length of training and undertaken exams which test their ability to provide the recognised UK standard of foot care for horses. If they dont pass the exam..e.g. their knowledge and skill is inadequate they can't register. Other associations are the same.

There are two such associations conected with the provission of Equine Dentistry here in the UK

The British Association of Equine Dental Technicians is one of them. To become a member one must pass the Industry standard level exam for Equine Dental proceedures in the UK. No exam pass...no membership allowed. Once you become a member you are bound by strict code of practice provisions and to renew membership you have to have undertaken a large ammount of Continual Professional Development training...e.g...attend courses and other means of updating yourself on current methods, development and scientific research within equine dentistry....and you also have to carry adequate public liability and medical malpractice insurance and if you dont meet these requirements...you cant retain membership. So, mebership benifits are twofold....benifit for the practitioner...and benifit for their clients and all the horse owning public in that horse owners can be assured that if a member..they will be aware of exactly what is current, ethical and correct with regard to equine dental treatments. Membership is open to veterinary and non- vet dental practitioners ...PROVIDING...they have passed the required exam which tests their knowledge of subject...use of appropriate equipment...skill in carrying out treatment...etc etc etc....on LIVE horses. Veterinary equine dental providers are not allowed to become members purely on the basis that they are Vets and have covered equine dentistry briefly in their training to become vets. The exam required for membership of this association is run by the BRITISH EQUINE VETERNARY ASSOCIATON and the BRITISH VETERINRY DENTAL ASSOCIATION. and has examiners who are both vet...and non vet practitioners. Visit www.baedt.com

The other association is the Worldwide Association of Equine dentistry. Membership is open to any equine dental practitioner and exam pass is not required for standard membership of this association. This Associations own internally run Equine Dentistry exam is equal in legal status to the BAEDT exam and the standard of knowledge of subject, skill of use of equipment and current standard practice treatments are equal to that of the BAEDT exam. To attain LEVEL TWO membership status, one must have passed their exam. The same applies here...no exam pass...no level two membership...irrespective of wether you are VET or NON VET practitioner and you cannot gain level two membership purely on the basis that you are a vet. visit www.wwaed.org

Both these organisations are self regulatory and have strict codes and standards of conduct and as such, if you the horse owning public has any problem with an individual practitioner who is a mamber of either association....then you have a course of redress and a means via which to persue complaints about anything associated to your experience with such an individual, should you so wish and both associations have complaints proceedures and all complaints are investigated. However, if you employ and individual who is not registered with either...then you are out on a limb on your own over such matters.

Currently in the UK there are no other exams available to test the skill and knowledge of equine dental providers either in Veterinary circles....or non vet circles.

So, to clear a point.....the use of power operated equipment is not illegat for use by ANY practitioner...vet...or non vet. However, you, the horse owner can be very safely assured that anyone (vet...or non-vet) who is providing an equine dental service WITH or WITHOUT the use of modern power operated instrumentation AND who is either a member of the BAEDT or a LEVEL TWO member of the WWAED is very competant and has been thoroughly examined and is very "up to date" on current equine dental proceedures, ethics and treatments. This system was put in place primarilly to protect and safeguard your horses and yourselves.

As you will see by visiting and educating yourselves on the organisations that there are several Veterinary dental providers who have "gone the whole mile" and undertaken the very much higher level of training and commitment required to pass these "industry standard" examinations as a demonstration of commitment to their clients. But, as you will also discover, there are many, particularly here in the north...who, sadly have not. Remember..attendance at a one or two day duration course, does not test or examine your competance or skill in a particular subject..or your ability to skillfully, correctly and safely use certain instrumentation on the living tissue (teeth are very much living structures containing sesvral living tissues within a complicated body anatomy) of horses. Only EXAMINATION does that.

So, that said, there are some practitioners around who may still be very very skilled and knowledgable and may still have been examined but who are not members of either association because they simply do not wish to be bound by the rules and ethics of the associations through personal choice or other circumstances...and equally, there are some who have been examined at some point and were members...but who did not keep up the required standards and did not update their practices sufficiently and who subsequently were refused membership...or who were "struck off" due to incompetence or other reasons....or there maybe others who sat the exam but failed. As I said before...the system is in place to safeguard you and your horses. There are also practitioners out there who are very good and who have the required skill, knowledge etc, and who are very"upto the level" but who are simply awaiting sitting the exam as there are only one sitting per year of the BAEDT exam....and less frequently with the WWAED exam. Therfore indepth internal knowledge of the industry here is required. I can give that info to anyone who requires it and so do feel free to contact me for info on any practitioner and i will advise as accurately as I can.

With regard to Horsemanship..not everyone who is a "GOOD" (ie qualified competant knowlwgeable and skilled and tested by by their peers and by those above them in the profession) are "good" and knowledgable in the art of horsemanship. There are those who's lack of this ability to communicate effectively with horses leads them to fall back on other methods of ensuring they are able to do their job...e.g. get sedation. Many Vets sedate horses for routine dental proceedures because "they legally can"..its easier to do that than struggle with a confused animal with which they cannot comminicate.The same may be said of those non vet practitioners who say they "need" a horse sedating. Horses which come across as difficult to treat..are merely confused and afraid of what is being done to them by these humans. I have proved this to clients on numerous occasions. I prefer to comunicate with them rather than have them "chemically restrained"...others dont. It's a matter of choice...but there again...I do dentistry firstly for the horses, secondly to earn a living. Please note, I am refering here only to the sedation of animals in order to effect what is termed "routine" dental proceedures, eg, examination and general maintainace treatments. Where more "complicated proceedures are required to perform total effective treatment..eg. gum disease treatments, restorative work (fillings etc) and more scuptural or larger reductions or reshaping of individual teeth, or extractions etc (wolf teeth included) then sedation and analgesia will be required and I will not hesitate to require its use in these instances.

It is my belief that if you "ask" a horse or pony in the correct manner, and you never "take more than the horse is prepared to give" ANY horse can recieve routine dental treatments and proceedures in a safe, calm, understanding and confident manner without reverting to the need for chemical restraint. Horses are NEVER EVER wrong..they do everyting they do for a reason.
 

Slave2Magic

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Well my mare and 2 others were supposed to have a dentist visit last Tuesday but he never turned up! I waited for 2 hours and was not happy. I did try to contact him via text and call but have heard nothing:(
 

alsiola

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Ponydentist: The use of motorised tools on a horse's teeth is, by the letter of the law, illegal if performed by a non-veterinary surgeon. The RCVS, in conjunction with BEVA/BVDA, has however stated that it would not be in the public interest to uphold this law, when the guidelines laid out in the joint BEVA/BVDA statement are met, as quoted here:

The use of motorised dental instruments where these are used to reduce overgrowths and remove sharp enamel points only, in horses sedated appropriately.

If you are using motorised instruments in unsedated horses then you are not within these guidelines, and I believe would be acting illegally.

More worryingly...
ponydentist said:
eg. gum disease treatments, restorative work (fillings etc)
are not treatments that an EDT should be carrying out with or without sedation. Again, to quote the BEVA/BVDA statement:
Alongside the advances in motorised instruments for overgrowth reduction, there have been new motorised instruments developed for the treatment of periodontal disease, dental decay (“caries”) and pulpal disease (“endodontics”). These include compressed air powered instruments similar to human or small animal dental stations. The complex surgical nature of the procedures these instruments are designed to treat and the high risks of damaging teeth and adjacent soft tissues dictate that these procedures should only carried out by veterinary surgeons with considerable expertise in this field. It is therefore our view that to minimise serious complications that affect horse welfare, it would not be acceptable to deregulate the use of this type of motorised instrument to EDTs under any circumstances, and that the use of motorised dental instruments by suitably qualified EDTs should be specifically for the reduction of dental overgrowths and to remove sharp enamel points only.

The full statement can be found on the RCVS website (http://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/beva-bvda-position-statement/)
 

VictoriaEDT

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Alsiola. just to clarify the current legislations taken from BEVA and the BAEDT:

"A further group of procedures has been deemed suitable to be performed by Equine Dental Technicians that have passed a Defra approved examination such as the British Equine Veterinary Association (BEVA) / British Veterinary Dental Association (BVDA) exam. (In order to join the BAEDT, this exam must be passed). At the present time, the BAEDT is the only association for equine dental technicians that the British Equine Veterinary Association (BEVA) endorses, and encourages its members to support. These further procedures are designated as Category 2 procedures and are listed below:

Category 2 Equine Dental Procedures:
These are additional procedures that are suitable for delegation to an EDT who has trained and passed an examination approved by DEFRA:

Examination, evaluation and recording of dental abnormalities
The extraction of teeth or dental fragments with negligible periodontal attachment.
The removal of erupted, non-displaced wolf teeth in the upper or lower jaw.
Palliative rasping of fractured and adjacent teeth
The use of motorised dental instruments where these are used to reduce dental overgrowths and remove sharp enamel points only. Horses should be sedated unless it is deemed safe to undertake any proposed procedure without sedation, with full informed consent of the owner."
 

alsiola

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The range of motorised instrumentation and the scientific understanding of the associated risks have evolved considerably in the last 10 years, such that it is possible to remove considerable dental tissue in a very short time.
However, these instruments have the possibility to damage dental tissues, bone and soft-tissue, especially if used inappropriately. In addition, should the horse panic in response to mechanical or electric instruments during such procedures, they have the potential to inflict serious injury to both horse and operator. We therefore consider that motorised instruments should be used in horses appropriately sedated for the procedure.
Alongside the advances in motorised instruments for overgrowth reduction, there have been new motorised instruments developed for the treatment of periodontal disease, dental decay (“caries”) and pulpal disease (“endodontics”). These include compressed air powered instruments similar to human or small animal dental stations. The complex surgical nature of the procedures these instruments are designed to treat and the high risks of damaging teeth and adjacent soft tissues dictate that these procedures should only carried out by veterinary surgeons with considerable expertise in this field. It is therefore our view that to minimise serious complications that affect horse welfare, it would not be acceptable to deregulate the use of this type of motorised instrument to EDTs under any circumstances, and that the use of motorised dental instruments by suitably qualified EDTs should be specifically for the reduction of dental overgrowths and to remove sharp enamel points only.
Revised statement:
‘The use of motorised dental instruments where they are used to reduce focal overgrowths and remove sharp enamel points only, in horses sedated appropriately.’

That is from the RCVS website as it stands today. I guess it is a matter of interpretation as to whether "sedated appropriately" implies must be sedated, or whether appropriate sedation may be no sedation. The majority of leading equine vets with specialisation in dentistry recommend that no powertool goes anywhere near an unsedated horse.
 

EQUISCENE

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That is from the RCVS website as it stands today. I guess it is a matter of interpretation as to whether "sedated appropriately" implies must be sedated, or whether appropriate sedation may be no sedation. The majority of leading equine vets with specialisation in dentistry recommend that no powertool goes anywhere near an unsedated horse.

The thought of anyone using power tools on an unsedated horse makes me shudder..

A few years back my 28 yr old needed hooks/ramps sorted and Julian Rishworth sedated him and did a fantastic job guiding me through the work showing me the problem, letting me feel the difference after he worked on him. I credit his work with giving my boy an extended life due to his thoroughness and will always recommend him. He is a well qualified, experienced equine specialist vet with his own eventers whether or not he is on the dentists register is irrelevant because in IMHO he did a good job!
 

VictoriaEDT

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"power instrumentation" is incredibly broad spectrum and yes the exert you have refers to category 3 procedures such as pulp burring/capping and diastema widening etc and cannot be legallly performed by an EDT anyway regardless of whether it is sedated or not.

However, power instrumentation (a completely different set of burrs to the above) used for routine dentistry and reduction of overgrowths is common practice with 99% of qualified EDTs and BVDA qualified vets. We complete our exam using them corrrectly and safely and have to do so to an extremely high standard otherwise we would fail it. If you went to the few leading dental specialist vets in the country and watched them perform dentistry, it would be done using power instrumentation.
 

alsiola

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‘The use of motorised dental instruments where they are used to reduce focal overgrowths and remove sharp enamel points only, in horses sedated appropriately.’

This statement is saying what IS allowed to be performed by EDTs. I'm not trying to imply that EDTs shouldn't be using powertools, just that they shouldn't (as vets shouldn't) be using them on unsedated horses. The point I was making about dental specialists was not whether or not they would use power, but whether or not they recommend sedation. AFAIK they are unanimous in recommending sedation whenever powertools are used. This recommendation is most definitely not followed by the EDTs in my area, hence when a vet does the responsible thing and sedates to use powertools, they are seen as overly expensive and not able to do the job unsedated. It doesn't seem like a level playing field when EDTs seem free to ignore leading veterinary advice, whereas vets have some obligation to follow it.
 

ponydentist

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This is exactly my point. There is a vast lack of "horsemanship" and knowledge of equine psycology and behavioral understanding in the "horseworld" generally, but in particular within the equine health care world. It may be agued that the advise issued by the RCVS regarding sedation..(CHEMICAL RESTRAINT) for all horses for the use of power dentistry is on the grounds of welfare and safety....but IN MY OPINION....it is on the grounds that "IT IS EASIER" and therefore preferable to sedate and also more cost effective (to the vet...not the client) to sedate a horse which is confused, frightened and not understanding what is being asked of it...rather than to take control of the situation by recalling on your unnderstanding of horse behaviour and recognision of what is happening in the given scenario and what the HUMAN is doing WRONG. The use of "chemical restraint is a "two dimensional" approach to "getting the job done". The majority of horse owners love their horses as they would their children and I believe that, whist they fully understand there is a need in certain instances for such practices, they would "prefer" and be in favour of an alternative which demonstrated a clear understaning of the situation from their beloved animals point of view. Many EDTs using power instruments on unsedated horses are doing so because they are specialists at what they do and have learned horsemanship principles because they dont have the alternative of sedation.On the other hand many vets dont have horsemanship skills and they use sedation as an alternative because they can.

And then of course, there is the issue of costs. I am sure the vast majority of horse owners would much prefer a situation wherby if a dental practitioner felt the need to use chemical restraint to effect a proceedure PURELY on the grounds that what he / she was doing was leading to confusion and fear for the horse (which is what happens in all such cases.....as I have proven on numerous occasions) they didnt charge the client for the restraint....i.e. the client shouldnt pay for the practitioners lack of horsemanship skills.It is the practitioners responsibility to improve those skills as a commitment to the client and more importantly..... TO THE HORSE. The use of power instrumentation has little releavance in MY opinion in this discussion as, from MY experience far more horses are sedated for ROUTINE dental proceedures EVEN when using hand rasps etc....when being carried out by Veterinary practitioners.....than by EDT,s. I BELIEVE this is due to the practitioners experience in handling horses in this particular scenario. It is not an "EGO" thing at all......it is MY OPINION that whilst there are elements of safety and welfare to the argument, it is overall....an ethical and moral issue of wether to charge for sedation and I certainly included the issue of "value for money" to the client in my decission to improve my horsemanship skills as part of my continal professional development training regime.

On the issue of safety....I have built into my risk assesement the fact that I have had considerable training and gained considerable experience in horsemanship skills to minimise (as we all know we cannot fully 100% prevent certain events with live horses...even under sedation) most hazards assiciated with routine dental proceedures on my horses. and for the same reasons, I belive that my conscience is totally clear as well on the welfare issue surrounding this matter in discussion.

There are in EXTREEM cases exceptions....and the issue of more COMPLICATED DENTAL PROCEEDURES e.g. restorations and other catagory three proceedures do not fall within the issue being dicussed for obvious reasons.Mainly due to the fact that these proceedures are not carried out "at home" but rater in a clinical environment. I will not hesitate after drawing up a thorough treatment plan and in discussion with the supervising vet, to require sedations when carring out these treatments at veterinary surgeries under the direct supervision of the various vets where such proceedures are carried out. So...for the record....I do not carry out catagory three dental proceedures on my own ...but rather as part of a "team" of qualified veterinary personell as is within the remit of the relavent law on this subject.

If you accept that you are lacking in horsemanship ability, and dont have the ability to sufficiently subdue a horses emotional and reactive fears, then fine ...accept it and sedate but....... dont charge for it...If you want to improve your horsemanship skills....go out and do it. I did so that i could help more horses to understand. I dont charge owneres where....on the very rare occasions I require their assistance ( place a hand or two on certain parts of the horse as "reassurance" ) to hep their horses. Sedation to me is viewed as an "instrument" to be applied or used ONLY as an a NECESSARY aid to effecting thorough treatment. Not as a substitute for poor horsemanship skills. This is a personal viewpoint.

Nearly ALL Modern dental instrumentation has been developed by non veterinary practicing equine dental practitioners and has been tested and proven to be safe for use as intended. The majority of motorised equipment used by 99% of qualifed equine dental practitioners is perfectly safe to use on unsedated horses....PROVIDED you are experienced and skilled enough to do so. It is not the equpment itself which is hazardous in certain instaces....but the way in which it is being used by the person using it. The power instruments which I and many others use is extreemely well guarded and it is very hard to cause any kind of soft tissue trauma to the oral enviroment when used as you were trained and examined to do so. My particular choice of instrumentation is battery operated and fully portable and has no trailing wires (snakes to horses) and allows me to be comletely mobile and move anywhwere with (in unison with the horse so that MY movement does not become a "Persuit") the horse. As I said...choice of instrument is an important issue and should be for the horse...as much as for the person.

Luckily for some horses and their owners I can treat animals which have for years been sedated through their lack of understanding of what has been asked of them ...both for dentistry and for clipping (the same principles apply here) and the animals in question are not frightened of the proceedure its self....but rather by the human trying to do it.
 

VictoriaEDT

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Agree completely P - people need to understand that we do this on a daily basis 40-50 horses a week in my case and I certainly wouldnt use power instrumentation on unsedated horses if I didnt believe it was safe to do so. We as BAEDT EDTs are not stupid or human guinea pigs; our safety, the owners safety and horses safety is of upmost importance.
 

Horseman

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Agree completely P - people need to understand that we do this on a daily basis 40-50 horses a week in my case and I certainly wouldnt use power instrumentation on unsedated horses if I didnt believe it was safe to do so. We as BAEDT EDTs are not stupid or human guinea pigs; our safety, the owners safety and horses safety is of upmost importance.

Can i ask what you charge
 

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Alongside the advances in motorised instruments for overgrowth reduction, there have been new motorised instruments developed for the treatment of periodontal disease, dental decay (“caries”) and pulpal disease (“endodontics”). These include compressed air powered instruments similar to human or small animal dental stations. The complex surgical nature of the procedures these instruments are designed to treat and the high risks of damaging teeth and adjacent soft tissues dictate that these procedures should only carried out by veterinary surgeons with considerable expertise in this field. It is therefore our view that to minimise serious complications that affect horse welfare, it would not be acceptable to deregulate the use of this type of motorised instrument to EDTs under any circumstances, and that the use of motorised dental instruments by suitably qualified EDTs should be specifically for the reduction of dental overgrowths and to remove sharp enamel points only.

Try finding one ;)


ponydentist - succinct as ever! :D

VictoriaEDT - thanks for the clarification :)

Mind you, in the light of this much needed and very healthy competition, vets are indeed upping their game. Some even employ fully qualified EDT's alongside their practises I believe. Reason? They simply don't have the time required to acquire the considerable skills and qualifications/ongoing CPD that the EDT's do.
 
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Indy

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I use Paul Waudby. He is very good with Shetlands. Well he is very good with big horses too. I think he has relocated to North Yorkshire - I'm pretty sure I saw an advert in the Yorkshire Post
 

JenHunt

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Paul Waudby is great!

Mine are both good to do, but I went on a recommendation, and I'm really glad I did, he has a lovely way with the horses.
My neighbour then booked the slot after me on the same recommendation and had warned him that she had no idea how her horse would react. The horse is CB who can't be ridden or driven due to a spinal problem (don't know the details really) and who has a big load of trust issues as a result of someone trying to break him in, him freaking out because of this issue and him going over backwards and breaking his withers. The result of Paul's visit was that he managed to treat this very very frightened horse without any sedation, just by taking his time and letting the little lad get used to it all one step at a time. I couldn't have been more pleased for the horse, the neighbour or Paul when they all finished the treatment successfully and in one piece.
 
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