Equine Manners

I completely agree with you AA, but I'm only 22 so probably part of the generation who are largely at fault. However I do agree with the poster who mentioned the difficulty with trying to re-train older horses. We bought a very badly handled 10 y/o Welsh D nearly 8 years ago, when we got him, he couldn't be tied, couldn't be bridled, would drag and barge everyone, wouldn't hack alone, wouldn't be stabled, couldn't be caught, was bad for the farrier, vet everyone. After seeing photos from when he was 4 (backed in using a Pelham) then abandoned for 6 years it became apparent why he was the way he was.

Now he ties sensibly although we do pick practical places, is fine to bridle, hacks alone, is stabled and is much better for the farrier (no longer rears on the farrier but pee's on him instead), he's nowhere near as bargy. But we know he'll never be able to be in a paddock or barn alone. And that 1 in 100 times he'll try and take off with someone in hand or won't be caught. We accept these things because of how far he's come, and with age and consistency he's still getting better.

On the other hand my 7y/o TB has had a good start and we've continued with it. He moves over when asked, is good to lead, picks up all feet with a tap on the leg, is perfect for the farrier, vet, dentist, clippers etc. He even knows not to leave the stable until asked, even if the door is wide open and I've walked off to get something. So much so that I've accidentally left his door wide open with his feed next to said open door, been distracted and come back 10mins later to find him still standing inside his stable.
And as another poster has mentioned, a well mannered horse should always sell. People don't want the hassle of bad manners.
 
dibbin said:
I can't stand ill-mannered horses. It's so easy to correct with a bit of consistency, there's really no excuse for it. An animal that weighs more than half a ton and has metal on its feet should not be allowed to think it can push its weight around!
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I agree with the above - a friend had issues with her horse she was new to horse ownership & was unsure what to do so took advise & now has a well mannered horse - you need to take the time & be consistent to sort issues out , unfortunately not everyone can be bothered
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. I think the point OP was making is that some people do not know or do not bother to 'stop them'. You and I obviously do know how to and regularly do so. IME there are VERY few horses that won't take advantage of people who don't stop them but even when they have been allowed to do as they please in a previous home, consistency and clear direction with rewards for doing the right thing can and does change their behaviour for the better.
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I agree with this ,say this morning when new horse had a little barge because he was a bit uptight if I had either got scared or gone there there dear it would I think take long before he started to push the boundarys but he accepted the correction and was very well behaved for the rest of day .
He did not want to stand at the mounting block properly it took five minutes to get what I wanted when we came out in the second saddle ( saddler was here ) he stood first time if you correct everytime they quickly learn to concerntrate on you and try to work out what you want then it's habit to do that then the ridden training becomes much easier because they are always engaged with working out want you want .
In almost all the horses I have known rude bad mannered horses on the ground are rude and bad mannered in their ridden training .
 
I cannot abide bad mannered dogs, children or horses and I strive very sure that mine aren't.

My 2 year old filly was handled as a foal, turned out and handled only for farrier and daily checks until this Spring. She came into a stable for the first time without her mother in April, spent 5 weeks in during the day, out at night, learnt to Lucy ge and long rein and be leant across, turned back out. I recently had to bring her in with an abcess in her foot, she left her 2 field mates, stayed in for 5 days, was an a gel for the farrier, stood like a rock to be polticed, didn't mind wearing a stable bandage and was happy for me to muck out round her. I didn't expect anything else. She has been disciplined from birth, always treated fairly and never abused, consequently she is a doddle. She has never been allowed to get away with anything she didn't want to do, she accepts that when I want her to do something, I mean it.

Older horses are harder but I start from day one as I mean to go on and they work it out in the end.

My daughter is also 2, she behaves in public and is generally polite. At home? Not so good!

My terrier, also 2, epic fail!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. I think the point OP was making is that some people do not know or do not bother to 'stop them'. You and I obviously do know how to and regularly do so. IME there are VERY few horses that won't take advantage of people who don't stop them but even when they have been allowed to do as they please in a previous home, consistency and clear direction with rewards for doing the right thing can and does change their behaviour for the better.
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I completely agree you can improve them, and make then MORE mannerful, but I think turning an older horse that has been let do as it pleases into a model citizen for everyone who handles it is unrealistic. Not that it can't be done, and not that vast improvements in behaviour cannot be seen, and most importantly not that we should;t try, but that we cannot remodel every horse. There is nothing nasty in either of mine, but there are things that I can only manage, or slightly improve, not fix - and even the things I fix won't necessarily stay that way when, for example, my younger sister handles them.

However I do entirely agree, as I said in my first post, that far too many people don't do it right from the start, when it matters, and we can produce model citizens, and that many behaviour problems both in hand and under saddle are caused by the handler/rider rather than anything else.

Also, Goldenstar - I have known a few, not very many, but certainly five or six, horses in my time that have been bar stewards to handle, but absolutely bombproof to ride. My last horse was a classic example - absolute schoolmaster, safe as houses, totally looked after the rider (did RDA and everything) however was a menace to handle. I managed it, I never left him tied alone, always left him in the trailer at shows and bridled him in the trailer, I used a chain to lead him - that and persistence added up to a horse that was perfect for ME to handle. However even the day before he died he dragged my sister into a ditch and crushed her against a stable wall and broke her Blackberry. However neither him nor the others I knew had necessarily been let 'get away', it was more they had reacted to bad handling - and learning to run/barge in self defence is much harder to sort as punishing doesn't work.
 
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Manners are so important.

K sometimes fidgets a lot on the yard, but it is easier to just get on with things around her and she settles eventually. Telling her off or trying to stop her only makes it worse. If you ask her to move, she will move, but sometimes she needs a little nudge of encouragement.

She is very polite though, I can open a gate, lead her through and then she will stand, and on the command "wait", she doesn't move till asked again. If I say "come on then", she will walk over to where I am, and then wait next to me to see where we are off to. If I am walking and stop dead, she does too, if I quicken the pace, so does she.

In the school if we are doing loose work, she will follow like a dog, but the moment you say "off you go" she moves away, but will come back when called.

It is so nice to feel safe that the horse isn't going to trample you because they respect you.the key to it though is quality and consistency.
 
While I wholeheartedly agree that good ground manners are essential (and sadly lacking in some horses these days), I'm curious how you "fix" an insecure horse who shouts when stabled alone?

Kal is a doddle to do most things with . . . he steps back when you walk into his stable, waits patiently for headcollar to be put on/taken off, leads like a lamb, moves over at a gesture/word/nudge, picks up all four feet, stands to be mounted/dismounted, practically loads himself, waits for his feed to be put down (although he does put his ears back) . . . however, he is an insecure little soul and will call if he is first to be brought in - particularly for the mare next door. He isn't being naughty . . . he is genuinely anxious . . . and he will walk in his box too until she or the other two come in. I don't believe this needs "fixing" . . . I see it as a perfectly natural behaviour for an insecure animal and I am not sure how, other than making sure he is safe/turning on the radio in the barn/letting him get on with it, I could somehow sort him out.

Ditto tying up on the yard . . . most of the time he will tie up beautifully, especially if given a trug of hay or haylage . . . but when he knows he is going hunting or out to a competition, he does get a little antsy . . . can't say I blame him - he's excited - and he ties by the lorry beautifully when we get the other end. I tend to ignore him and only reprimand him if he forgets himself and won't stand still for me to put travel boots on, etc.

Do we really expect our horses to be robots/suppress all emotion/natural instinct 100 percent of the time?

P
 
I agree completely. As mine are all out, I don't have the stable manners issue, but they are caught in 12 acres, and led across a little footbridge. There isn't room to turn the horse on the bridge to close the gate, so all have been taught that as the lead rope is thrown over their wither they are to cross the bridge and wait at the other side for their leader to close the gate and catch up. I also like to train a 'handbrake', so you can walk away from horse to sort something out without him going walkabout.

Best manners I ever saw were on my friend's welsh cob. She liked a clean trailer, and a clean stable, so among his other saintly qualities, he would 'knock' gently to be allowed out to go to the toilet, rather than make a mess.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Recently there have been many posts and questions revolving around problems with leading, stabling or turning out alone, thug youngsters, pair bonds etc.

I actively teach my horses, including the youngstock to accept being alone in a stable or paddock should the need arise for them to do so. For instance my 2 year old filly has been inside since Sunday evening through injury. She can see one horse in an adjoining paddock, but because she has been taught to cope with being alone occasionally she has settled immediately in a row of 5 boxes with no neighbours. I take the view that teaching them to be independent early in their lives will set them up for the future. I cannot be doing with screaming clingy horses. I also expect them to back off the door as I approach and to move over with a verbal command, to lead without pulling or hanging back and to turn in gateways without being asked or shoved and to stand quietly.

This to me, is the most basic of training, yet so many horses do not seem to have this basic grounding and present their owners with real problems. Have standards changed ? am I a rarity in my insistence of manners regardless of the age of the horse. I had two visiting horses in a while ago, both of whom flattened me in the doorway, normal behaviour their owners told me and explained how they had never seen horses step back as the door was opened.

Interested to hear your thoughts on equine manners.
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Totally agree AA , my horses are all taught respect, they give me my space, if i enter the stable they step back ( even if i have a feed bucket they will wait till i put it down), a small gesture moves them over to where i want them, both will stay in the stable and field alone without creating a fuss. Manners are essential!

it doesnt matter if you have them from a youngster or older every horse can me taught manners, my current lad is a big 15.3 cob and when i got him he had no respect whatsoever he would walk over me, drag me, stand on me, barge me etc. I worked him in a dually headcollar and did lots of groundwork and now he has lovely manners (apart from the odd clumsy moment hasnt stood on me in ages haha)

He was also bad with the farrier but with patience and firmness he is now good as gold, i admit on occasions he has had a good slap but has done him no harm !! he is now lovely to handle and if he has the odd cheeky moment a growl is enough to correct him, manners cost nothing :)

he is one of the most loving horses i have ever owned and genuinely wants to be with me all the time. i think this is a bond we have from all the ground work we did :)
 
Shavings said:
I'm sorry I haven't read all the posts (phone being silly and will not load page 2 of posts!)

I just through I would ask any one give advice of how to train good manners in to your horse?
I have heard from some people just a firm hand,others say rewards (how ever will they not always look for them?) and one lady told me clicker training?
Also the OP mentioned training horses to settle on there own could to let me know how you go about this?

And do the same training methods work on older horses as well as young stock?

Sorry for all the questions I two do not like rude horses but would like to know what the best ways are for correcting them as I will be looking after a couple in January and don't wish to be stepped or jumped on!! Either do I want to be dragged through mud!!
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You are in a tricky spot really. You will have no idea of how the two you will be looking after in January have been brought up or how they are handled now. My advice would be to handle with caution until you can assess what they are. It is a dreadfully rude thing for me to say, but by looking at the owners and the equipment will often tell you a lot ! It is also a good idea to put a hat and gloves on whilst you are sussing out what you have. Ignore any sarcastic comments from others. I had a sweet mare in recently, she was a bit stressed but didn't look difficult. I put my hat on to turn her out for the first time, reached up to put head collar on in the stable and she swung her head at me like a fighting giraffe and hit me clean on the temple. Skull cap took the lot.

The best way to teach manners. I don't know to be honest, there are many differing views. All I do is keep is clear and simple and never accept rudeness. With the babies I just calmly insist that they step back, turn wait etc I don't reward basic good behaviour, why would we reward what is expected ? I will reward the out of the ordinary, for instance my filly standing to have her wound dressed and IV jab, that earned a carrot. I did not reward the 2 yr old gelding for accepting the breaking roller and attempting his first wobbly lunge around me the other day. He had a 'good boy' and a rub. It is very easy to teach them to mug your pockets and be more concentrated on titbits than what you are trying to teach them.

As for older horses, a lot depends on what they have been let get away with, how ingrained it is and how dangerous the habits are. Two examples with mine. 17.2 hunter bought 10 years ago age 10, the most beautifully mannered and trained horse, he moved his quarters as I mucked out around him, he never approached me unless asked to and he won first time out. I found him a bit soul less to be honest. His flaw was very dangerous, he would rip away from me on the way to being turned out. This could be on the yard and he would jump the gate into his paddock or he would walk across several paddocks before doing it. He broke my fingers twice and no head wear stopped him, I tried everything and in the end resorted to handfuls of carrots to distract him and accepted defeat.

The other one a tank of a cob bought in 2012, well I must have been invisible because she certainly did not bother to go around me and had no concept of moving away from pressure, her shoulder was a weapon and leading her anywhere resembled Penelope and Kipper for any of you old enough to remember the cartoon. I am afraid there was no discussion to be done with this horse and with a dually or rope halter on at all times together with my trusty blue pipe it did not take long for her to understand it was far easier to be polite. As horrid as it was to be hard on her a few times she is a happier horse knowing her boundaries and has turned into a really pleasant horse to have around.

Settling on their own can be a huge problem and needs teaching at a young age in the ideal world. For an older horse used to company 24/7 it may even be unfair to try to change him. I try to leave them alone for short periods of time at first and then lengthen the time gradually, always ensuring the horse is in a safe environment when left.
 
pennyturner said:
I agree completely. As mine are all out, I don't have the stable manners issue, but they are caught in 12 acres, and led across a little footbridge. There isn't room to turn the horse on the bridge to close the gate, so all have been taught that as the lead rope is thrown over their wither they are to cross the bridge and wait at the other side for their leader to close the gate and catch up. I also like to train a 'handbrake', so you can walk away from horse to sort something out without him going walkabout.

Best manners I ever saw were on my friend's welsh cob. She liked a clean trailer, and a clean stable, so among his other saintly qualities, he would 'knock' gently to be allowed out to go to the toilet, rather than make a mess.
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My lad also does the go through gate and wait at the other side hehe, whenever i go on a hack when i get back to yard i undo the gate then lead him though hook his reins on his run up stirrup just incase and tell him stand, he then waits patiently while i close the gate, he has never yet walked off, he then will follow me to stable yard without me holding him (just walks beside me, if i stop so does he lol) and he will go park himself at his tie up spot bless him, its a brilliant thing to teach :) xx
 
If ever a thread needed a 'like' button it is this one.

I frequently find myself snarling at the screen when I read all "Oh my horse won't ..... " as if he is special. He's not special, he's bad mannered, and has you right where he wants you!

"What do you do when your horse bites you/turns his arse/barges/won't stand still/won't tie up?" threads have me sitting on my hands or being very forthright on the subject, which has got me banned from more than one Forum ;)

Is it people beyond a certain age who insist upon, and expect manners I wonder?
 
PolarSkye said:
While I wholeheartedly agree that good ground manners are essential (and sadly lacking in some horses these days), I'm curious how you "fix" an insecure horse who shouts when stabled alone?


Do we really expect our horses to be robots/suppress all emotion/natural instinct 100 percent of the time?

P
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No of course we dont if you meet my horses you will see real individuals full of character and spirt.
But they are expected to be aware of humans all the time if we are interacting but they do have horse time everyday.
I don't spend time with my horses in the field that's their time to be horses if I am doing something in the field and they come fine but otherwise they left alone the only exception except new horses who I will get to come over to gate and pat and leave while they are in isolation .
It's not bad manners to be excited when the lorry starts but it is no excuse to say drag a human about the yard.
Whatever is happening my horses are corrected if they are ignoring a human.
If you don't have good manners when nothing 'extra ' happens you have not a prayer when something more is going on.
 
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Completey agree - manners, stable alone and turnout alone is essential in my opinion. I bought a 7mth old colt and hes been with us 3 weeks and has already learnt to back away from the door and being stabled alone. I always bring my horse in first so he gets used to be in the field for a matter of minutes, he's slowly getting there. I also make sure he doesnt eat his food unless i say so and now he waits patiently for me to drop my stance and back away for him to eat. Manners i think is important especially as my little fella is currently standing at 14.2 bum and 13.3 withers at 7 months so hes going to be a big boy.........
 
Thing is OP, you have them from a young age so its much easier to teach things like this when they're young. But a lot of us get horses when they're of riding age which is far more difficult to then go back and try to reset these things like being fine on their own etc. as many breeders don't bother with this. Having had a Welsh D who was already very clingy when I bought him as a 3yo, its then very difficult to teach them to remain calm when left on their own!
 
Enfys said:
Is it people beyond a certain age who insist upon, and expect manners I wonder?
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Is 30 beyond a certain age? :) I've always insisted on manners, for me it was how I was brought up. I was expected to have manners and in turn I have always expected my animals to have manners. If everyone knows where they stand, life is much easier all round I find.
 
When people say they "insist on and expect" good behaviour, I assume they (also) mean they take the time to teach the horse to behave well (like it goes without saying)?
 
fburton said:
When people say they "insist on and expect" good behaviour, I assume they (also) mean they take the time to teach the horse to behave well (like it goes without saying)?
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Yes to the above, I don't expect my horse to understand what I want without taking the time to teach him. It's a continuous process of being consistent with him and reinforcement.
 
I am beyond a certain age (beyond most ages, actually), I suppose I must therefore be old school. If my horses misbehave they get a clout; my horses very, very seldom misbehave. They know where the boundaries are, and what awaits if they cross them. They are not petted, slobbered over, anthropomorphosised, overfed or all the other things that seem to get so many people in trouble with their horses these days. They are also well loved.

I have friends whose horses are downright dangerous to be around, but these are pets, not working horses.
 
MagicMelon said:
Thing is OP, you have them from a young age so its much easier to teach things like this when they're young. But a lot of us get horses when they're of riding age which is far more difficult to then go back and try to reset these things like being fine on their own etc. as many breeders don't bother with this. Having had a Welsh D who was already very clingy when I bought him as a 3yo, its then very difficult to teach them to remain calm when left on their own!
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I agree with you, the two I have had the most trouble with are older bought in horses mentioned in a previous post. Many people seem to breed stuff and not handle them, what happens if they are injured, no vet should be expected to get his/her kicked off trying tend a wild youngster. Like kids I suppose, the formative lessons and boundaries are crucial for the future.
 
MagicMelon said:
Thing is OP, you have them from a young age so its much easier to teach things like this when they're young. But a lot of us get horses when they're of riding age which is far more difficult to then go back and try to reset these things like being fine on their own etc. as many breeders don't bother with this. Having had a Welsh D who was already very clingy when I bought him as a 3yo, its then very difficult to teach them to remain calm when left on their own!
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This. There is so much improvement on manners you can do with an older horse, but being left alone/left tied etc when they have never been taught and get upset about it is very difficult... however people should be doing it with their babies!!
 
Just like to thank AA for the heads up!

I've recently brought two weaned foals inside and it is so easy to let one out in the round pen and keep the other inside while I fill hay nets. Initially, there was a lot of shouting but they soon calmed down. I'll be making the separations a bit longer each day.

It is just the sort of training I like to do! No effort or special sessions involved and something I can slip into the routine without any major changes. It also means I can give each a bit of individual attention while I'm about it!
 
Dry Rot said:
Just like to thank AA for the heads up!

I've recently brought two weaned foals inside and it is so easy to let one out in the round pen and keep the other inside while I fill hay nets. Initially, there was a lot of shouting but they soon calmed down. I'll be making the separations a bit longer each day.

It is just the sort of training I like to do! No effort or special sessions involved and something I can slip into the routine without any major changes. It also means I can give each a bit of individual attention while I'm about it!
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At last I have done something useful !

I have had to smile this evening, I got out of my car to the sound of door banging this evening, no problems it will be that visiting horse - no it was blooming Alice, making it quite clear that 4 days in the stable with her injured fetlock is now peeing her off. Manners Alice manners !
 
Another who insist on good manners, and I do believe an older horse can be reformed too. Like with any training it will take time and patience. I expect it from both of mine and I am always suprised when others have to handle them and they remark on how easy and well behaved they are. Not like the others it's said. Well the others should behave the same I my opinion. I had neither of mine from youngsters, my old boy was bargy and rude. I shudder to think the hours we spent going in and out of the stable, in and out of the field until the pair of us was bored silly. But as soon as he walked in wherever calmly and quietly then he was released and left to his own thing. Any mischief, and nope start again.
The little mare scared of her own shadow and clingy as hell to the old boy. Time and ground work, in fact lol we have had to do a little remedial training this week as she had taken to jogging to the field rather than a nice calm walk. But we are back to normal again.
A lot comment on the yard, as to why I never bring them in together, it would save time, less distance to walk etc. I explain mare is clingy, it does her good to have some time alone. She always comes in first she knows old boy will arrive at some point so settles and has her tea.
Turn out she goes out first, I have trained her to realise that the gelding will join her at some point. If she moves fields ie summer or winter and she is likely to be unsettled I strip graze, so If i want to ride she gets some fresh grass while she waits for the gelding.
I did older if I would have problems with her last winter as for the first time they had to be stabled for a few days because the ground was so bad. Again routine worked. Hay each first, mare goes out for a walk in hand has a bit of grass by the verge. Put back in stable, gelding comes out we do the same, we did this twice a day. Buy the end of day two no shouts no stress.
Sorry it's all a bit long winded but manners are soooo important!
 
Having experienced owners(some lessons and knew it all) who thought it was funny for thier 8month old sec d colt to put his front feet on thier shoulders and who thought it was sweet for him to decided where he wants to go (and there is more) and then wonder some years down the line why they cant handle him is it any wonder so many have no manners. I despair sometimes :(
 
fburton said:
When people say they "insist on and expect" good behaviour, I assume they (also) mean they take the time to teach the horse to behave well (like it goes without saying)?
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It is important that handlers do take time to teach the horse how to behave. For instance, I like my horses to step back when I enter the stable, so I teach them during everyday handling about stepping back to a touch on the chest, and then transfer it to the stable.

However, not everyone thinks to teach their horse these basic skills, but then get cross when the horse doesn't understand what they ask. I know of a young horse who was loaded into a trailer for the first time, he went in fine. Then the handler tried to back him out, but she had never taught him to back up! The horse got more and more upset, and didn't understand what to do, but she kept on trying for 45 minutes to back him out, despite the trailer having a front ramp! The handler had the BHSII.
 
fburton said:
When people say they "insist on and expect" good behaviour, I assume they (also) mean they take the time to teach the horse to behave well (like it goes without saying)?
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That's the thing, isn't it?

I really think some people expect their horses to know how they are expected to behave, without being taught, which is completely unrealistic.
I maintain though that it is really the handlers who need the training. Even a normally well-mannered horse will start to take advantage of a handler who ignores minor transgressions and those transgressions will turn into major ones.
I even know someone who eventually sold her horse because it was too much for her - she bought the mare as a yearling and spoiled it rotten. She even said , 'Oh she's like a delicate piece of china.' Then when the mare was 4, she started saying to it,' you should know this by now, you are 4'. How the heck did she think the horse would know, if she hadn't bothered to teach it?
 
Yes, it is unrealistic to expect horses to know how they're expected to behave. Terribly unfair, in fact. Of course, good handlers teach and reinforce good manners continually, as an ongoing process, whether in a deliberate, considered way or unconsciously and intuitively. It can done in sessions intended to teach specific behaviours, but a huge amount of learning goes on in day to day handling too. Either way, it takes time.

Some people appear to assume that horses always know what is wanted (and can tell 'right' from 'wrong'!) or how to respond to verbal instruction. These people need to be educated, as you say, because ultimately it is the horse that suffers from their ignorance. I know this happens because I have seen it with my own eyes many times over the decades. I'm not sure if it's getting more or less common though.

Cortez said:
If my horses misbehave they get a clout; my horses very, very seldom misbehave. They know where the boundaries are, and what awaits if they cross them.
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I know you are keen on declaring your "no nonsense, give 'em a smack, it never did them any harm" stance, and recognize a little bit of tongue-in-cheek there. ;) But do you really mean that your response to any misbehaviour is a clout? What sort of things does 'misbehave' include in your book? Okay, for something like biting or threatening to bite, I can see that a clout could be effective, even appropriate. But what about not standing still to be mounted or drifting to one side while being led or not stepping back when asked (things I would consider to be an integral part of 'manners')? Would you consider clouting to be an effective response for those lapses too? Or do you train these behaviours without clouting, and only clout the horse when it deviates from its previous training?
 
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