equine physios/ chiropractors?

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millies

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bit of back ground info first (sorry if this gets long and apologies for incorrect grammer / spelling, im on my phonq !)
so about a year i go a bought mills, ish warmblood big beast, bought unseen (i know slap my wrist) at first i notice that her near hind leg was at a slightly inward angle compared to the other but nothing unusual about paces, not lame or in any obvious discomfort.

fast forward to riding her a couple of months later, shes stumbling a bit and doesnt feel right trotting on one rein and its visibly obvious shes not tracking up with her near hind. quite experienced event rider says this is just how she is, its not fixable and to sell her.

she was brought home and turned out for a month before being brought back into work. starts dragging both hind legs whilst being ridden. a friend who is a qualified equine physiotherapist came to ride her and agreed mills isnt right and is lacking muscle on her near side, advises a few excersises to help even up the muscles. physio never treated her (no vet consent, just asked her as a friend for an opinion)

not long afte other hock begins to fill with fluid, although doesnt seem to be causing any discomfort. a couple of experienced knowledgable riders have a look at her and tell me shell grow out of these problems and to keep working her as normal.

so today farrier comes out to shoe her for the first time and i mention her dragging her toes. he immediatley looks at her from a couple of dif angles and tells me its her back and he reckons shes trapped nerves or moved one of the vertabrea or something like that and i need to get the 'back man' out.

so what is this 'back man', i assume either physio or chiro but im not sure now where to go from here, and google is not proving helpful.
(sorry this is getting long)

so heres what i was hoping some of you may be able to answer..
whats the difference between a physio and chiro?
do i need to get a vet out first?
does it sound like it could be a problem with mills back, or what else should i start looking at ?

choc fudge cake (with smarties!!) for anyone whos actually understood all that .
 
Physios work on muscles, use massage & ultrasound etc.. Chiros work on muscles & bone alignment. I prefer chiro to physio & now use an excellent equine vet who is also an osteopath & I use a mctimony chiro.
 
'Back man' is a generic term that doesn't actually mean anything.

Any therapist/bodyworker/whatever who only looks at the horses back doesn't have a clue what they're doing.

I feel physiotherapy is more holistic than chiropratic (physios look at soft tissue and skeletal alignment too).

Vet needs to give permission in any case - in this instance I would probably want the vet's opinion, before moving on to a therapist to help manage the case, toe dragging is a classic sign of hock issues.
 
I'd plump for an osteopath if you can, if not then a McTimoney chiropractor... You need someone who does the whole musculoskeletal system really and a great osteo has the most "overall" approach IME.
 
Essex.. But I go to Newmarket to Donna Blinman Equine Rehab, equine vet, osteopath, acupuncturist..all in one! At home I use Polly Godsafe Mctimony Chiropractor.
 
Im biased of course but if people struggle to alter the mechanics of a persons bone alignment how can we affect a horses bone alignment?

I prefer physio because personally i think it is more long term and the pull of the muscles can alter how the horse uses themselves.

Op to use a properly reg physio you need a referral from the vet so would advise vet first :).
 
cycle - my first thought was to the vet to have a look, and in hind sight i really shouldnt have listened to these experienced people. so theres possibly problembs in her hocks instead of her back or aswell as ?

also whilst having shoes on her back feet she was clearly unhappy with picking her near hind up anything above a inches of the ground.
 
ok, so will ring vet tomorow.
has anyone else had sucess diagnosing things like this with out ending up having bone scans, nerve blocking and generaly running up a massive vets bill?
 
Yes my mums mare toe dragged, and had stifle issues & arthritus in hocks as well as kissing spine.. Back in full time work because of Donna Blinman, that's why I travel 2 hours to her..
 
Totally impossible for me to say without assessing the horse - and even then I couldn't tell you if there was something like spavins. Could be instead, could be as well as.

Did she start dragging both hinds after she was brought back into work, or were they dragging when she was brought back into work? Small but important distinction!


If a client contacted me in this scenario, especially given the fluid on the hocks and how limited movement is, I would recommend they have the vet check it over first - only a vet can give you a diagnosis.
Physio would help with the inevitable compensation issues elsewhere in the body, but vet first.
 
only_me said:
Im biased of course but if people struggle to alter the mechanics of a persons bone alignment how can we affect a horses bone alignment?

I prefer physio because personally i think it is more long term and the pull of the muscles can alter how the horse uses themselves.

Op to use a properly reg physio you need a referral from the vet so would advise vet first :).
Click to expand...

Exactly!

It makes me smile when someone comments that their horse had their back / pelvis 'put back in' by a chiro - how the heck is someone going to do that then?!

Muscles will pull the body out of alignment - the only way to correct this is by working with the muscles through massage, stretching, strengthening, etc. A physio will help to do this.

In this case, I would want a vet assessment first though as it sounds like there could well be more going on.
 
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only fluid in the off side hock.
i only noticed the toe dragging about 6 weeks after being brought back into work, and she does it more towards the end of a schoo-ing session or hack.
 
m_m... that was my thinking that someone couldnt possibly put bones back into place ! yet some google sources are adament this is possible and now im truely baffled.

wht oh wht cant horses just point to where it hurts. does any one have dr doolittles number? pm if you like !
 
I use an osteopath for my back problem, but would never personally get one for a horse. I even had one tell me that there is no physical way that you could do to a horse what would be neccessary. Their skeleton is not nearly accessable enough and the muscle masses are too large to counteract. As for all this moving of pelvises you hear about, that's just ridiculous. For me it's a physio all the way (and always an ACPAT one, not all are reg.). If it's good enough for the world's most expensive sportsmen/women, it's good enough for me.

A physio will get permission from the vet before working and refer back to the vet if they see anything that needs veterinary investigation. I often start with a physio though as I think it's worth doing before starting a lameness work up/nerve block. (Unless there is an obvious lameness, in which case vet)
 
Even more reason for vet first (I know you've already decided to! :)).

I know multiple McTimoney practitioners who have additionally trained as physios as they didn't feel Mctimoney was holistic enough.
Fairly pointless looking at a skeletal issue if you can't do anything about the surrounding, supporting structures.

Also worth considering is physio is evidence based, chiro and osteo less so.
 
Just to add - there are other options than ACPAT physios, judge each therapist by their own merits - they should be happy to answer any questions about governing bodys/qualifications/insurance etc.
 
But osteopaths especially mine who is also an equine vet treats the whole horse, she uses medicine when necessary, natural supplements where possible focuses on diet & management & works literally from pole to tail.. I've seen it work on 4 different horses, 3 of my own, one that was due for an operation for sticking stifles from my every day vet, my boy who s found to have gut ulcers & our newbie, who now looks the best he's ever looked.. As well as a friends who has lameness issues, hock arthritus but is now competing in dressage..
 
Get the vet out to start with. Explain the problem and say what you would like doing. Ie nerve blocks and X-rays of the hocks.

This can help prevent the vet from coming out to have a look at it trotting up then saying I will come back next week with the X-ray mschine
 
millies said:
m_m... that was my thinking that someone couldnt possibly put bones back into place !
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WHen most (sane!) people say this about a chiro / osteo etc what they mean is 'out of alignment' in exactly the same way the above poster refers to muscles in spasm pulling / holding bones out of the correct alignment. So for example my shoulder is 'out' of proper alignment at the moment because of muscle spasms following a broken bone, I don't mean it's dislocated or the actual bone has moved within the surrounding soft tissue. So don't take 'out' so literally, it's a lazy way of saying 'held out of alignment by surrounding muscles'.

I still agree that if you want a good body / musculoskeletal person, I'd start with an osteo. But also agree wholeheartedly that given you're aware of existing issues, I'd start with a vet if you can. Especially given what you said about reluctance to pick up the foot. If you can find a vet who has the option of working with an osteo on site if that's what you need then that would be great, or if you could go to someone like Donna Blinman who has both sets of approaches then you may get to a resolution more quickly. It may be a collection of smaller issues, often is!
 
lindsayH said:
I use an osteopath for my back problem, but would never personally get one for a horse. I even had one tell me that there is no physical way that you could do to a horse what would be neccessary. Their skeleton is not nearly accessable enough and the muscle masses are too large to counteract.
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Disagree on this one - different osteopaths work in different ways, and a good horse osteopath triggers relaxation in the muscle by contracting it to release the spasm, rather than trying to stretch it or actually move it in that way themselves. Even this can be very physical - not violent or invasive but bloody hard work on some of the larger muscle masses. I think it really really depends on what issue the horse has - my latest came with very complex muscle issues (with a muscle spasm at the poll which meant the actual x ray showed when standing straight she was still holding her atlas 'not straight' or on a tilt (as opposed to 'out' in the unhelpful way of describing it). It wasn't a 'back man' who told me that, it was a vet who showed me on the x ray. She'd had chiros say her pelvis was not straight (it wasn't, but that wasn't the problem it was a compensation and putting it 'back' made no difference) and she'd had (very well regarded) physios work on the muscles which were compensating but they were only really tackling the symptoms. It was an osteo working with a vet who, after half a dozen different people treating it, found the root rather than symptoms, and made a huge difference from the first treatment.

THey do different things. For ongoing muscular work / maintenance, I'd use a physio. For something deeper I'd go to vet & osteo first, then use a physio for mainteance as we rebuilt the work.

But in this instance I think a vet who understands the usefulness of good 'bodyworker' types would be the OP's best bet.
 
millies said:
ok, so will ring vet tomorow.
has anyone else had sucess diagnosing things like this with out ending up having bone scans, nerve blocking and generaly running up a massive vets bill?
Click to expand...

Personally this would be my choice. There are so many things that could be causing the issues you are noticing running the entire range from what a physio could work on to what you really need a vet to treat. In my mind better to have the vet out and then you just know what you are dealing with.

But that's also because I'm speaking as someone with a horse with a few similar symptoms and I had physio work on my guy and it sort of helped. We also thought we actually knew what the issue was. But unfortunately after spending 5 hours at the vet hospital yesterday we now know it is very definitely a veterinary issue. Or you could do both, book in a physio and also a vet appointment just to check all angles.

If you aren't insured you could start off by letting the vets know so they can be as economical as possible with the diagnostics they choose (or even if you do have insurance). Unfortunately though, there is no getting around that fact that bone scans, blocks, scans and xrays are expensive. :(

Fingers crossed!
 
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