Erratic judging at DB winter champs

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Halfstep

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I spent Thursday and Friday working at the winter championships at Hartpury. Brilliant show, so lucky with the weather, and fantastic stabling (well, for us, we were in permanent stables) and lovely arenas and friendly organisers. Huge thumbs up.

However, I am seriously disillusioned about the judging. How can the same test be placed (for example) 3rd, 6th and 19th by three different judges? How can the same medium trot get an 8, a 7 and a 5? It wasn't just me who was muttering. Some really quality horses who did lovely, flowing, mistake free tests got ridiculous scores because one judge had them 5% (or greater!) lower than the others. The elementary open championship was particularly bad, but it could be seen in a lot of the classes. I know that the judge at the side of the arena can often see other things and I would expect some differences - but such glaring discrepancies are really bad for the sport and make it so, so difficult for riders and trainers to evaluate the quality of their work.
 
I wasn't at Hartpury this week but I have had the same experience at Regionals before. Admittedly it was only prelim on a little 5yo but 2 judges had me 8th and one judge had me 19th!! There was a huge difference between the scores of the 2 judges who had me higher and the judge who had me lower placed. I forget now where the lower marking judge was, becasue I do understand that judges at different places see different things, but surely not the difference between an 8 and a 5 for one movement?!

I suppose this is what the challenge is in dressage, and at the end of the day it is someone's opinion. We all just have to hope that we are marked fairly by each judge during our test but sadly it is not always the case.
 
It is such a strange and difficult subject and one we will never find the answer to. Yesterday one judge had us 1st and the other judge 9th [came 4th] The horse placed 1st had exactly the same thing one judge put her 1st and the other 9th and the difference in marks was 71% and 62%. The difference between overall scores was just 1% between 1st and 6th. I believe the true scores [ not overall percentages] will be online on Monday. Don't know the answer and pleased with our results but they were strange
 
There will always be huge discrepancies - I am afraid it comes with the sport!
They say a woman's mind is inscrutable, but surely a judge's mind is even more inscrutable :P

If it's any consolation, it really does happen at ALL levels.

These are some of my favourite pictures from the Turin EU championships - in both cases, Elvis.

The first one is a classic, it makes me smile every time I look at it and am so glad I took it. 4, 7, 8, 5, 4 - just WOW!


rs7pc8.jpg


6hrt5z.jpg
 
That's nothing - my friend had two 7's and a 0 for a simple change at the Regionals.....how can two judge's see a movement and like it and the other not at all...the most worrying thing was looking back on the vid she had actually missed it as her horse popped in a sneaky flying change....
 
i really think its such a shame that this happens, the one thing i think that is consistant right across the board is that >at some point, every single one of us competing in bd has felt some kind of inconsistancy!!! It is the nature of the beast unfort!! I really wish that the sport would evolve to be more consistant, and i had hoped it would, but this post confirms to me that it most deffo is NOT!! Imo (and its as corny as you like) you have to know your horse gave you 110% and you put in 110%, smile at the score board and go home> happy in the knowledge you did a good 'consistant' job!!!
 
Did she actually walk? In that case it is not too bad, the two judges just didn't notice the horse had changed, but the third judge had and the 0 was right.

I think with 'quick' movements it is easier to make mistakes, I have another picture of another huge competition where the one tempis had a row of 4s and one single 8! Clearly a mistake in one of the one tempis, which the 8-awarding judge had missed, in an otherwise perfect diagonal.

What really amazes me in the passage picture above, is that there is a whole spectrum of marks and it's such a long movement too. I really cannot figure out what happened.
 
Her score should have been 0 for the simple change because she clearly didn't do it and eventually it was marked as such after a half hour of hoohah, but it does hammer home the subjectivity of what is real and what is perceived......
 
What they see, or don't see, depends where the judge is sitting. I have written for the same test (open & restricted) in 2 different positions & it really does make a difference.
 
I do quite a lot of writing for judges. It is quite an eye opener when you have to sit somewhere other than C as they see lack of straightness etc quite differently when sitting in a different place. It does make sense of the differences in marks.
 
There is always going to be a differing opinion as unfortunately dressage is subjective. This was highlighted I felt last night when I was at a small demo and the judges read out what they would have given for each movement. Mainly all 7's and 8's... however their comments of 'lovely, stayed in complete balance, true harmony between horse and rider etc etc' didn't really reflect why there were no 9's!! And the test really did deserve some too! I just think judges rarely use marks out of the 5-8 range.
Getting back to championships... maybe the reason why they use judges placed at different points around the arena is so that they really do get the best test come out on top! Judges are going to see very different things at times and mark accordingly. Of course it is different if one judge is consistantly marking much lower or higher... but again if the difference is consistant then there will be no bearing on placings.
 
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