ESS people

[AceAmara]

Hoping people with ESS’s can enlighten me, thanks in advance

A couple of questions.. are they as sensitive as I’ve been told? Having had working collies we much prefer a harder dog to a ‘soft’ dog that shuts off if you look at them in the wrong way. I think generally spaniels are more sensitive as breed but are their harder ones so to speak? We would be looking as a general family pet but to also do some beating I think.

Secondly, as with cockers are their 2 distinct types, show & working? I prefer the lighter, smaller type and assume this would be working bred? Oh and quick third question.. do liver and white dominate nowadays and are black and whites harder to come by?

 

[Thistle]

I have an 8 month liver and white ESS, he is quite sensitive which makes him easy to train. He would dissolve into a wobbly mess if you were harsh to him. However I've met lots who are much 'harder'

Liver is more common but there are plenty of black and whites around, even a few tricolours, with tan eyebrows and cheeks in both colours.

Cockers come in 2 varieties, working and show and are possibly more highly driven and harder to train than a ESS

ESS also have show and working lines. Generally the show dogs are bigger, chunkier and have a lot more hair!

 

[druid]

There's harder and softer lines - just the same as most working breeds. There are two types, showing and working and within working another two divergent lines; trialling and keepers dogs. Trialling dogs tend to be harder, smaller, hotter and a skill to handle while keepers/working dogs tend to be a bit heavier and easier to work with less flash but more substance. There is of course cross over within the working types and they're not completely distinct - I've got a few here, one a massive Badgercourt brute who is hard headed, hard going and a great worker but doesn't have the flash or pace for trialling. His polar oppisite is a Kindais/Buccleuch/Freecrow dog who is smaller, much more flashy and racy and doing very well in tests and likely to run a trial on his first season working.... very different dogs.

Black and white pups are less common but not too hard to find.

I'd watch videos of tests and trials and look at ads. Work out the type of dog you want and then find out which lines you like the look of. Accost every owner of a suitable looking dog and ask it's breeding and breeder!

 

[Alec Swan]

As druid, and I'd add that you take the pup that you fancy with parental and bloodline selection being vital. I have a ChxCh bred Cocker bitch here who's as kind and gentle as any Cocker ever born. She lacks the drive and the IQ for trialling. I put her to Will Clulee's Championship winning dog, Griffon. I'm still in touch with those who bought the pups, and every one of them is soft and shy, despite having happy and positive early weeks.

Like you OP, I don't want soft dogs, pushing a piece of string doesn't work! Also like you, I want a dog that I have to stop, collies included! I used to believe that it was often to do with the early input, but now I'm not so sure. The hard hunting bitches tend to replicate themselves and vice-versa, and regardless of the dog used. As the Irish will tell us; 'Tis all in the mammy.

Why colour should make such a difference I don't know, but it does, and I've yet to see a B/W Springer that I'd want. I'm sure that they exist, but I've yet to see one. It's the same with Labs. The Yellows never seem to me to be as those which are Black.

One anomaly, have you considered a Sprocker? Again, I've yet to see one which I didn't like! Hard going and biddable, every one of them! Can't explain that one!

Alec.

 

[AceAmara]

thank you so much for 3 such informative replies Lots to think about now.

 

[Clodagh]

Thinking about Alec's reply - it makes no sense that a mongrel should be consistent in its temperament but I wonder if the sort of lab breeder who crosses with a spaniel prefers the spaniel way of working and so has a labrador that is hard and commited? That is just a musing.
Also agree that the bitch seems to have a lot more to do with the pups attitude than the dog, maybe that is nature or nuture as with horses.

 

[Alec Swan]

Clodagh, out-crossing is an interesting subject but one with pitfalls! I'd suggest that there needs to be at least a link between the breeds that are used. Crossing a GSD with a Poodle, for instance would most likely produce nothing with purpose. However, crossing a GSD with another 'protection' dog may well do. Considering the various spaniels, then it seems to have some success. Back in the 1800s, several had the bright idea of crossing Retrievers with Pointers in the hope that they'd end up with dogs which would both point and retrieve. What they actually ended up with was dogs that did neither!

It's long been my belief that the Breed Societies really do need to allow a measure of out-crossing and so to permit their dogs to continue to evolve. Consider the Scottish Deerhound; Would the breed not be improved by the inclusion of greyhound? I firmly believe that it would be hugely beneficial. There's no question that Working bred Cockers have had a beneficial injection of related blood installed.

Alec.

 

[AceAmara]

how would you say a working bred cocker and ESS differ Alec? And what do you think the qualities are that make the cross a good one?

 

[Alec Swan]

A good question! Whilst both dogs essentially fill the same roll, they differ in their approach to life, or 'tend' to. With Cockers the bonding with the owner is more fragile in that they will often and easily take offence. Cockers, or so it seems to me, tend to expect more from the handler than Springers. Cockers most certainly have 'expectations', and some which are sometimes difficult to live up to. Working Cockers can be temperamental, to say the least. It's the challenge that appeals to some!

Perhaps the best example is that I've had 3 and more Springers working at the same time and accepting instruction, but wouldn't work two Cockers together, their jealousy is boundless as are their reactions to a lack of attention!

Sprockers? The qualities of the first cross? The best that I can do is to say that all those that I've seen, have combined the best of both breeds. A demand for focus but with a slightly more accepting approach to handler-failure!

The above comments are generalisations, and open to risk I understand!

Alec.