ET clone covers mares
- Thread starter dannydunne
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AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
E.T.CRYOZOOTECH-STALLION becomes stallion at the onset of his third year. After performing fertility tests and after being approved as a stallion by Zangersheide Studbook followed shortly thereafter by the AES studbook, he will serve a few priviledged mares in 2009 in the French region of Normandy
E.T.CRYOZOOTECH-STALLION, 30 months old, becomes a stallion. He will be the first recognised cloned stallion in the area of show jumping.
The first sport horse to be cloned,, E.T. FRH was the world best show jumper of years 1995 à 2000 ridden by Hugo Simon. Showing an exceptionnal agility,He won the highest jumping competition always with tremendous speed.
E.T.CRYOZOOTECH-STALLION was born in june 2006 in Texas, following a collaboration between CRYOZOOTECH and TEXAS A&M UNIVERSITY.
In January 2009 E.T.CRYOZOOTECH-STALLION semen was collected for the first time. In spite of his young age,his semen proved fertile and a first mare was bred as an assesment. She is now pregnant of 40 days.
More recently he received stallion approval by studbook Zangersheide which allows him insemination with registration of his offspring. AES studbook followed rapidly and also approved him as a stallion. Other studbooks might follow later . The rule in Europe is that a horse can be registered in only one studbook, which defines his breed affiliation, but a horse can be approved as a stallion by several studbooks which want to introduce his genes is the blood lines of the breed.
According to geneticists, it is important to keep the generation interval as short as possible and the performance of his model already qualified is genes. This is why he should be used as a stallion as soon as possible and not participate in competition. This decision is an evidence that the target of Crozootech is genetics rather than producing phenotypic copy of champions.
ET CRYOZOOTECH STALLION has now all the technical and legal requirements to become a stallion in Europe.
In order to prevent overuse and fatigue of this very young stallion, only a small number of mares will be inseminated on the farm where he will be accomodated: the Horse Embryo Trransfer facility of AMELIS-EQUITECHNIC at CORBON (F14340). He will be under technical responsability of Marc SPALART, (Tel +33 2 33 67 80 70, GSM +33 6 14 17 11 90, email spalart@equitechnic.com). He is too young to have a stock of frozen semen and in order to save his semen insemination will be performed immediatly, without transport.
A small number of high quality mares will be selected in addition to those of share owners in order to see a good sample of his offspring as soon as his first generation.
E.T.CRYOZOOTECH-STALLION, 30 months old, becomes a stallion. He will be the first recognised cloned stallion in the area of show jumping.
The first sport horse to be cloned,, E.T. FRH was the world best show jumper of years 1995 à 2000 ridden by Hugo Simon. Showing an exceptionnal agility,He won the highest jumping competition always with tremendous speed.
E.T.CRYOZOOTECH-STALLION was born in june 2006 in Texas, following a collaboration between CRYOZOOTECH and TEXAS A&M UNIVERSITY.
In January 2009 E.T.CRYOZOOTECH-STALLION semen was collected for the first time. In spite of his young age,his semen proved fertile and a first mare was bred as an assesment. She is now pregnant of 40 days.
More recently he received stallion approval by studbook Zangersheide which allows him insemination with registration of his offspring. AES studbook followed rapidly and also approved him as a stallion. Other studbooks might follow later . The rule in Europe is that a horse can be registered in only one studbook, which defines his breed affiliation, but a horse can be approved as a stallion by several studbooks which want to introduce his genes is the blood lines of the breed.
According to geneticists, it is important to keep the generation interval as short as possible and the performance of his model already qualified is genes. This is why he should be used as a stallion as soon as possible and not participate in competition. This decision is an evidence that the target of Crozootech is genetics rather than producing phenotypic copy of champions.
ET CRYOZOOTECH STALLION has now all the technical and legal requirements to become a stallion in Europe.
In order to prevent overuse and fatigue of this very young stallion, only a small number of mares will be inseminated on the farm where he will be accomodated: the Horse Embryo Trransfer facility of AMELIS-EQUITECHNIC at CORBON (F14340). He will be under technical responsability of Marc SPALART, (Tel +33 2 33 67 80 70, GSM +33 6 14 17 11 90, email spalart@equitechnic.com). He is too young to have a stock of frozen semen and in order to save his semen insemination will be performed immediatly, without transport.
A small number of high quality mares will be selected in addition to those of share owners in order to see a good sample of his offspring as soon as his first generation.
firm
Well-Known Member
Very interesting. So did he go to a stallion grading & did anyone see him at it? Any videos?
nomis
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting. So did he go to a stallion grading & did anyone see him at it? Any videos?
[/ QUOTE ]
I would think that would have been unlikely. Probably more a "who you know" scenario, although I would like to be proved wrong.
Also have you seen the picture they are showing of the stallion on the CRYOZOOTECH website, am sorry but it looks like a gelding that has just been dragged out a field for a picture! To me it has no stallion qualities at all from the picture alone, and from the news on the CRYOZOOTECH website they are more interested in the breeding lines than it proving itself in sport. To me just because it is a clone of ET does not make is that desirable as a sire, also as ET was a gelding who is to say he would not have sired donkeys.
I also think that if the clones are Approved or Licensed by Zangersheide or AES without going in front of the public eye, then does this not make a mockery of the format of stallion gradings, where other stallion owners (with none cloned horses) have to jump through the hoops to get the same.
Very interesting. So did he go to a stallion grading & did anyone see him at it? Any videos?
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I would think that would have been unlikely. Probably more a "who you know" scenario, although I would like to be proved wrong.
Also have you seen the picture they are showing of the stallion on the CRYOZOOTECH website, am sorry but it looks like a gelding that has just been dragged out a field for a picture! To me it has no stallion qualities at all from the picture alone, and from the news on the CRYOZOOTECH website they are more interested in the breeding lines than it proving itself in sport. To me just because it is a clone of ET does not make is that desirable as a sire, also as ET was a gelding who is to say he would not have sired donkeys.
I also think that if the clones are Approved or Licensed by Zangersheide or AES without going in front of the public eye, then does this not make a mockery of the format of stallion gradings, where other stallion owners (with none cloned horses) have to jump through the hoops to get the same.
eventrider23
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with you Nomis that the stallions MUST be put before the public eye exactly like any other stallion that has to prove itself...
Kate260881
Well-Known Member
This interests me. See, why would you want to see the clone in the flesh. When you buy a covering by a certain stallion all you are buying is genetic data. The clone as the exact genetic data as the original so no matter which of them (if you original wasn't gelded) covered the mare the genetic material you are buying would be the same. So therefore, if you liked the original enough from his records/seeing him etc why would you need to see the clone.
(this is really not a dig at anybody as I know diddly squat about breeding I just find the whole cloning thing very interesting)
(this is really not a dig at anybody as I know diddly squat about breeding I just find the whole cloning thing very interesting)
nomis
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
This interests me. See, why would you want to see the clone in the flesh. When you buy a covering by a certain stallion all you are buying is genetic data. The clone as the exact genetic data as the original so no matter which of them (if you original wasn't gelded) covered the mare the genetic material you are buying would be the same. So therefore, if you liked the original enough from his records/seeing him etc why would you need to see the clone.
(this is really not a dig at anybody as I know diddly squat about breeding I just find the whole cloning thing very interesting)
[/ QUOTE ]
I am not speaking about seeing the clone. What I am saying is that a clone (as a stallion) should have to go through the same selection process as any other stallion. Just because they are a clone of a showjumping gelding who is to say that it has any stallion qualities.
If that was the case then we would all be breeding from any stallion just on bloodlines alone. The original ET competed at the highest level in competition, but who is to say the clone will do this because the making of a horse does not go just on bloodlines alone, it goes on their development as a youngster and the rider who is on their back. Horses do not just become International sporthorses because of bloodlines only, that is only one part of the jigsaw.
This interests me. See, why would you want to see the clone in the flesh. When you buy a covering by a certain stallion all you are buying is genetic data. The clone as the exact genetic data as the original so no matter which of them (if you original wasn't gelded) covered the mare the genetic material you are buying would be the same. So therefore, if you liked the original enough from his records/seeing him etc why would you need to see the clone.
(this is really not a dig at anybody as I know diddly squat about breeding I just find the whole cloning thing very interesting)
[/ QUOTE ]
I am not speaking about seeing the clone. What I am saying is that a clone (as a stallion) should have to go through the same selection process as any other stallion. Just because they are a clone of a showjumping gelding who is to say that it has any stallion qualities.
If that was the case then we would all be breeding from any stallion just on bloodlines alone. The original ET competed at the highest level in competition, but who is to say the clone will do this because the making of a horse does not go just on bloodlines alone, it goes on their development as a youngster and the rider who is on their back. Horses do not just become International sporthorses because of bloodlines only, that is only one part of the jigsaw.
Kate260881
Well-Known Member
I see what you're saying but my point was that if the original had been chosen as a stallion because it had been proved in competition then you would use it. But its a gelding.... but you still want that bloodline for you foals so you use the clone getting the exact same genetic data. Taking this into account why would the clone have to prove anything in grading and/or competition if this had already been done by the original?
Thefuture
Well-Known Member
Fully agree with you KP - the clone need only produce the semen for the gene pool - the original has done the rest. The cloning idea is all very interesting but as yet not an avenue for my breeding programme!
Ciss
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The original ET competed at the highest level in competition, but who is to say the clone will do this because the making of a horse does not go just on bloodlines alone, it goes on their development as a youngster and the rider who is on their back. Horses do not just become International sporthorses because of bloodlines only, that is only one part of the jigsaw.
[/ QUOTE ]
And of course there are those who argue (and I do have to say that I am one of them) that ET must have presumably not been thought to have been of stallion quality anyway (or perhaps was not out of mare that was highly graded enough to be allowed to be a stallion mother), which is why he was gelded and became such a successful competition horse. Also, there is also the consideration that he achieved what he achieved precisely BECAUSE he was a gelding and perhaps might not have been able to compete so successfully and so conistently at such a high level if he had been left entire. There is a benefit to gelding male horses for competition and who can tell exactly how much of a benefit it is, especially when FEI rules ban this colt from ever competing (just in case you didn't know that).
The original ET competed at the highest level in competition, but who is to say the clone will do this because the making of a horse does not go just on bloodlines alone, it goes on their development as a youngster and the rider who is on their back. Horses do not just become International sporthorses because of bloodlines only, that is only one part of the jigsaw.
[/ QUOTE ]
And of course there are those who argue (and I do have to say that I am one of them) that ET must have presumably not been thought to have been of stallion quality anyway (or perhaps was not out of mare that was highly graded enough to be allowed to be a stallion mother), which is why he was gelded and became such a successful competition horse. Also, there is also the consideration that he achieved what he achieved precisely BECAUSE he was a gelding and perhaps might not have been able to compete so successfully and so conistently at such a high level if he had been left entire. There is a benefit to gelding male horses for competition and who can tell exactly how much of a benefit it is, especially when FEI rules ban this colt from ever competing (just in case you didn't know that).
firm
Well-Known Member
But in this case the original didn't as he was never graded & didn't compete as a stallion so is it fair to other stallions to give this horse approval based on its genes.
It also just feels a little bit cosy that the owner of the Z studbook who Approved this stallion also is deeply involved with the Cloning company. I have to be cynical & wonder will reliable, proper information on the sucesses or not of these clones be released.
Quote from the Clone website
"The WBFSH advises breeding organisations which would select them to consider those clones as brand new individuals to test and to disregard their models performances. "
What happened to Paris Texas the Quidam clone? He is four this year but I couldn' t find any pics of him.
Why clone Poetin? Don't answer that by saying "cos we can"
KP - if outside influences change the clones so they are not physically the same as the originals eg white markings how do scientists know what others differences there maybe which can't be physically be seen or quantified?
From what I have read the cloned horses in America have different heights, conformation and performance?? so is it really that simple just to say these cloned horses have the same capacity to produce the offpring that their models did or would have done?
There are interesting articles on The Horse .com
It also just feels a little bit cosy that the owner of the Z studbook who Approved this stallion also is deeply involved with the Cloning company. I have to be cynical & wonder will reliable, proper information on the sucesses or not of these clones be released.
Quote from the Clone website
"The WBFSH advises breeding organisations which would select them to consider those clones as brand new individuals to test and to disregard their models performances. "
What happened to Paris Texas the Quidam clone? He is four this year but I couldn' t find any pics of him.
Why clone Poetin? Don't answer that by saying "cos we can"
KP - if outside influences change the clones so they are not physically the same as the originals eg white markings how do scientists know what others differences there maybe which can't be physically be seen or quantified?
From what I have read the cloned horses in America have different heights, conformation and performance?? so is it really that simple just to say these cloned horses have the same capacity to produce the offpring that their models did or would have done?
There are interesting articles on The Horse .com
shirleyno2
Well-Known Member
So if clone is showing tremendous talent over a loose jump, [and his flashy elevated paces I presume] would we all have seen a video by now? Or am I being cynical?
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
But the clone doesn't need to show -any- performance... that's what the original ET did. The sole purpose of this stallion is to allow the sharing of the original gelding's genetics...
We have no idea if he is a "good" sire, but he had the genetics for performance. This is unknown territory, but I'm sure within a few years (3-5) we will see whether these gelded animals had good "breeding" genes as well as good "performance" genes, although I'm pretty sure that there's a hell of a lot of crossover.
We have no idea if he is a "good" sire, but he had the genetics for performance. This is unknown territory, but I'm sure within a few years (3-5) we will see whether these gelded animals had good "breeding" genes as well as good "performance" genes, although I'm pretty sure that there's a hell of a lot of crossover.
eventrider23
Well-Known Member
Regardless of talent....ET wasn't a stallion for a reason and the clones should at the very least go through the same stallion grading procedures that any other stallion would be required to do....or at the very least make publis some more decent footage of him!!!
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
Well, for me the grading is a separate issue. I don't know what he had to go through to be Z-approved. If the usual approval system was circumvented in any way, then more fool the studbook that allows/allowed that to happen.
My post is in response to those above who question what the clone actually has to give. I don't think a clone of a gelding can be written off as worthless just because he performed "as a gelding". We must wait and see.
My post is in response to those above who question what the clone actually has to give. I don't think a clone of a gelding can be written off as worthless just because he performed "as a gelding". We must wait and see.
eventrider23
Well-Known Member
Well he is now Z and AES approved...without having appeared at a grading....having been to a Z grading, the procedure is usually done over 2 days....obviously full X-rays, etc need to be presented....over the two days they are then assessed over jumps and over the flat and the public are welcome to the show....he never did any of this as far as I know.
I am all for cloning....within reason of course...however I do think that whilst of course they are technically 'proven' in terms of competition, that they are not proven as stallions and from that assessment POV, all the usual steps should be followed.
I am all for cloning....within reason of course...however I do think that whilst of course they are technically 'proven' in terms of competition, that they are not proven as stallions and from that assessment POV, all the usual steps should be followed.
Thefuture
Well-Known Member
So whats the problem here - is it that this stallion is not on public view so we can all make comments about his ability and compare him to the original?
I for one have not interest in using him but am I to assume some of you are interested - or you just want to see the stallion graded cause you feel its "fair". I dont believe anyone is being forced to use him on their mares so does it actually matter whether he has gone through the correct procedure for stallion status. At least they have not been turned away and then set up their own Society when they dont get their own way and call it something like CES!
I fully agree with the comments from Ciss and would ET have been as good if he was left entire? A question we will never have answered, but as AP points out its the genetics they are looking to bring into the breeding pool not this Clones jumping ability.
I for one have not interest in using him but am I to assume some of you are interested - or you just want to see the stallion graded cause you feel its "fair". I dont believe anyone is being forced to use him on their mares so does it actually matter whether he has gone through the correct procedure for stallion status. At least they have not been turned away and then set up their own Society when they dont get their own way and call it something like CES!
I fully agree with the comments from Ciss and would ET have been as good if he was left entire? A question we will never have answered, but as AP points out its the genetics they are looking to bring into the breeding pool not this Clones jumping ability.
firm
Well-Known Member
Unlikely that any of us can use him anyhow.
"A small number of high quality mares will be selected in addition to those of share owners in order to see a good sample of his offspring as soon as his first generation"
TheFuture it is important to consider how these clones will gain approval. The integrity of a studbook is surely that it keeps Approval processes transparent, it is a new issue and it might turn the whole Approval process on its head let along the whole breeding thing. It is still experimental.
"In all cloned animals, defects appear to be more common than among the naturally conceived. Cloned foals are likelier to be weak or have crooked legs, Hinrichs said."
"George Seidel, a cloning expert at Colorado State University, says three factors make us who we are. The first two are genetics and the environment. The third is what's called epigenetics, which combines aspects of the other two.
The term epigenetics refers to proteins and other chemicals that attach to DNA and act as markers, determining how the code is read - hiding some stretches and exposing others - like the marks of a censor's pen. Those marks tell cells whether to act like skin or heart or fertilized egg.
That's why even identical twins are slightly different - there's some randomness in the way the epigenetic markers stick to the DNA throughout the body. In a horse, that might make the difference between a great racer and a good one.
Epigenetics may also explain the defects seen in clones. Normally, sperm and eggs get their epigenetic codes "reset," allowing them to start anew when they come together. Cloning mimics that process, albeit imperfectly. "
This bit above makes me want to stick to just using original horses however imagine in 15 years time instead of looking at stallion catalogues for semen for AI, looking at a catalogue of mares , geldings & stallions for cloning. I read in USA that they thought it could be brought down to 16000 dollars per clone. Imagine cloning a stallion/gelding for that price , bringing it home, wait a couple of years then throw it out with 5/10 of your own mares. Insurance wouldn't be that expensive so no need do AI and he would just have to stay breeding sound anyhow. Automatic EU aproval with top studbooks so no grading costs there , no competetion costs & not even vetting costs
We could all have a top class stallions in our backyards
or am I just getting carried away
Would it be a good thing anyhow
"A small number of high quality mares will be selected in addition to those of share owners in order to see a good sample of his offspring as soon as his first generation"
TheFuture it is important to consider how these clones will gain approval. The integrity of a studbook is surely that it keeps Approval processes transparent, it is a new issue and it might turn the whole Approval process on its head let along the whole breeding thing. It is still experimental.
"In all cloned animals, defects appear to be more common than among the naturally conceived. Cloned foals are likelier to be weak or have crooked legs, Hinrichs said."
"George Seidel, a cloning expert at Colorado State University, says three factors make us who we are. The first two are genetics and the environment. The third is what's called epigenetics, which combines aspects of the other two.
The term epigenetics refers to proteins and other chemicals that attach to DNA and act as markers, determining how the code is read - hiding some stretches and exposing others - like the marks of a censor's pen. Those marks tell cells whether to act like skin or heart or fertilized egg.
That's why even identical twins are slightly different - there's some randomness in the way the epigenetic markers stick to the DNA throughout the body. In a horse, that might make the difference between a great racer and a good one.
Epigenetics may also explain the defects seen in clones. Normally, sperm and eggs get their epigenetic codes "reset," allowing them to start anew when they come together. Cloning mimics that process, albeit imperfectly. "
This bit above makes me want to stick to just using original horses however imagine in 15 years time instead of looking at stallion catalogues for semen for AI, looking at a catalogue of mares , geldings & stallions for cloning. I read in USA that they thought it could be brought down to 16000 dollars per clone. Imagine cloning a stallion/gelding for that price , bringing it home, wait a couple of years then throw it out with 5/10 of your own mares. Insurance wouldn't be that expensive so no need do AI and he would just have to stay breeding sound anyhow. Automatic EU aproval with top studbooks so no grading costs there , no competetion costs & not even vetting costs
andysmaga
New User
[ QUOTE ]
I read in USA that they thought it could be brought down to 16000 dollars per clone. Imagine cloning a stallion/gelding for that price , bringing it home, wait a couple of years then throw it out with 5/10 of your own mares. Insurance wouldn't be that expensive so no need do AI and he would just have to stay breeding sound anyhow. Automatic EU aproval with top studbooks so no grading costs there , no competetion costs & not even vetting costs
We could all have a top class stallions in our backyards
[/ QUOTE ]
Huge advantage because cost of a foal will drop significantly and as a consequence a breeder will, finally be able to turn a profit
Seriously, a clone of a champion need to be tested through his offspring, having a 3 y/o doing free jumps or trotting in front of the crowd, doesn't mean anything.
We need to confirm that a clone is capable of transmitting the qualities (gene pool) of the original, as it's scientifically expected.
And no breeder is forced to use a clone...
I read in USA that they thought it could be brought down to 16000 dollars per clone. Imagine cloning a stallion/gelding for that price , bringing it home, wait a couple of years then throw it out with 5/10 of your own mares. Insurance wouldn't be that expensive so no need do AI and he would just have to stay breeding sound anyhow. Automatic EU aproval with top studbooks so no grading costs there , no competetion costs & not even vetting costs
[/ QUOTE ]
Huge advantage because cost of a foal will drop significantly and as a consequence a breeder will, finally be able to turn a profit
Seriously, a clone of a champion need to be tested through his offspring, having a 3 y/o doing free jumps or trotting in front of the crowd, doesn't mean anything.
We need to confirm that a clone is capable of transmitting the qualities (gene pool) of the original, as it's scientifically expected.
And no breeder is forced to use a clone...