EU commission urges France to comply with EU rules on Identification of Horses

[GinnieRedwings]

The problem with France is that they arbitrarily restrict competition to horses with recognised stud book papers. Dressage, SJ, etc. are tests of skill not tests of purity of breeding and while well bred horses are more likely to do better in competition it is entirely counter productive to exclude talented horses of unknown origin.

You will note in my previous positing that I do not defend the French on this, and indeed the situation is starting to change.

Very glad to hear that. I showjumped to Class C in France until my early 20s and had to keep very talented horses out of "affiliated" competitions because they were OI - a waste if you ask me, since some breeders are quite sloppy with registration...

 

[Booboos]

You will note in my previous positing that I do not defend the French on this, and indeed the situation is starting to change.

Sorry I wasn't addressing my post to you! It was QR (which I assume a post to be unless it quotes another post). There were and still appear to be people on the post who confuse being able to register a pedigree horse in France with not being able to compete a non-breed horse in France.

Glad to hear there is light in the end of the tunnel!

 

[tristar]

my earlier reference to competing horses having reg breeding papers, was really directed at the british breeders as of course this is already the case on the continent.

sport horses uk has intimated that in the future this will be a distinct possibility in gb, and as ginnie points out can lead to oi horses being unable to compete, however as it is new to gb maybe it can be incorporated, if it does happen, in a more open ended way.

sport horse gb and other stud books have said that france is the only country that are 'difficult' when it comes to complying with exsistant eu rules, it has been suggested to me more than once that this is protectionism, but france can be slow to change but is changing they now recognise part bred arab horses and anglo-arab crosses, about a hundred years after the arab horse society of gb, oh well better late than never.

 

[Ciss]

I think things might finally eb moving on this but I will give everyone an update as soon as I have it

 

[Rollin]

Actually it will be SIX YEARS in February since I raised this issue with DEFRA, BHS, BEF and many UK breed societies etc. I was personally villified and subjected to very unpleasant emails and abuse on both UK and French Equestrian Forums.

Finally DEFRA took up the case.

When the first CB Filly foal was born in France in 2009 we were told an EU Decision was 'imminent'.

It is finally being addressed because my husband wrote to Bernard van Goethen, in January 2011 and then at the request of the EU Commission, we provided a comprehensive dossier on the case of Littel Dorrit.

However, Mr. van Goethen wrote back and pointed out that under EU Law, if a passport is issued by a PIO in another member state the PIO must notify the member state in which the horse resides, in order that that equine can be registered on the National Database in the case of France , SIRE.

In spite of writing TWICE to CBHS informing them of this legal requirement, we have not had the courtesy of a reply.

Whilst Little D remains unregistered, I cannot breed from her compete with her and any French vet has a right to put her to sleep.

Meanwhile, stud books all over Europe solve this problem by coming to an agreement with the only PIO in France, e.g. AES, Dales, Shagya, Freisans, KWPN, Zangersheide, etc.

France issues the passport, with the mother stud book logo, in accordance with rules of mother stud book, registration with mother stud book is done automatically as is the case with my Shagya Arabs.

In the case of my part-bred CB, having given up on CBHS I put her into the AES stud book as a sport horse.

DEFRA have recommended TWICE in the last year that CBHS enter into an agreement with French authorities. There is still no agreement in place and so I have no option but to put pure-bred foals into the AES stud book.

Also please remember that ALL horses who reside in France must be registered with SIRE. Brits are amongst the worst offenders in failing to comply when they move to France with their horses. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I have no doubt the French will use this to support their case.

France will argue and this could go on for years.

Meanwhile I sit here with 1% of the World Population of CB's with the same problems I faced 6 years ago.

 

[Rollin]

Hi Ciss

Just wondered if you have you heard any more about this ?

Steve - ask my husband. He can brief you on his communications with Commission. Whilst CBHS Council agreed to write to Commission in February 2011 and did not manage a letter until August 2011, mu husband wrote in January, 2011, received a speedy reply and supplied a comprehensive file in August 2011.

Ciss, the only problem we encounter is where breeds are not recognised. Although it took three years in the case of the CB, in the end I did that myself.

There is the problem of registration costs currently 120 euros per horse. After you met with Xavier Guibert, Director of Intl Relations at HN in Apeldoorn - I seem to remember you telling me not to complain about the 120 euro fee.

Do you know why it costs more to register an imported horse on SIRE than a French bred horse Ciss?

 

[rvb99]

Sorry to hear of the ongoing problem. I clearly do not know all the details, but it seems to me that the problem here is really part down to defra itself. Defra are in fact the overal custodians of the PIOs. They could quite easily come to an arrangement with the French ministry such that all defra authorised PIOs are recognised by SIRE. This is not a defence of the French position, but also if the CB PIO can not be bothered to make their case for the breed , then I guess SIRE don't take them seriously. TBH we have seen with some other uk breed stud books a reluctance to recognise some lines created outside the UK. There was a problem with Shetlands a while back, which seems to be resolved now.

BTW not only do all horses have to be registered with SIRE, but now in order to assist in welfare control ALL keepers of horses much register their premises, even if only for a single horse or pony.

 

[ReggieP]

SIRE recheck the vet papers for a foreign horse, so I guess this is reflected in the price. Personally I see this as a good thing, as it is much easier to cross botders and transport in to france without proper checks. Remember that France registration is for life, enabling participation in all competitions. Perhaps not for non-affiliated competers but the uk is by comparison very expensive with a yearly registration for EACH. discipline

 

[Rollin]

SIRE recheck the vet papers for a foreign horse, so I guess this is reflected in the price. Personally I see this as a good thing, as it is much easier to cross botders and transport in to france without proper checks. Remember that France registration is for life, enabling participation in all competitions. Perhaps not for non-affiliated competers but the uk is by comparison very expensive with a yearly registration for EACH. discipline

I had a meeting with the Director of Hn here at our farm. The reason it cost more to register an imported horse on SIRE is that when a horse is born in France, the sire and dam are already on SIRE. When a horse imported the pedigree details have to be entered by a clerk.

You are quite correct about the lack of border controls, that is why since June 2011 French vets can pts horses with no SIRE number in the passport. I know for example that there are frequent EVA alerts usually emanating from horses brought in from Eastern europe.

 

[Ciss]

Ciss, the only problem we encounter is where breeds are not recognised. Although it took three years in the case of the CB, in the end I did that myself.

About 2 years ago the BEF/ Brititsh Breeding and DEFRA set up a meeting with XG and invited all the studbook PIOs to come to it to see if they could sort out a recognition procedure. About 20 came and a draft agreement was put forward by the FN and I think some of them signed this and are now recognised by the FN. Sadly not all did sign it and these are the ones that are still having problems.

There is the problem of registration costs currently 120 euros per horse. After you met with Xavier Guibert, Director of Intl Relations at HN in Apeldoorn - I seem to remember you telling me not to complain about the 120 euro fee.

Although he was at the WBFSH meeting at Apeldoorn (he is on the Board and goes every year to the General Assembly anyway) the subject was not discussed there, but only at the meeting the BEF arranged later on. And on neither occassion was any regsitration fee discussed as far as I remember so it cannot have been me who told you not to complain about the fee. I may have suggested that you leave getting recognition for CBs in France to the CBHS in the hope that they would do something themselves (which sadly they didn't but I don't think I can be blamed for that ) but as I did not know about the fee rates I could not have suggested you did anythng (or indeed nothing) about them.

Hope that clarifies things a little.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

fact 5,000 2 year old trotters are slaughtered every year, source - veterinaire francaise.

the french system encourages overbreeding.

Over breeding is when we have a surplus of horses with no use for them. Putting the equine failures to good use, by eating them, is not over breeding, it's common sense.

Alec.

 

[Rollin]

About 2 years ago the BEF/ Brititsh Breeding and DEFRA set up a meeting with XG and invited all the studbook PIOs to come to it to see if they could sort out a recognition procedure. About 20 came and a draft agreement was put forward by the FN and I think some of them signed this and are now recognised by the FN. Sadly not all did sign it and these are the ones that are still having problems.



Although he was at the WBFSH meeting at Apeldoorn (he is on the Board and goes every year to the General Assembly anyway) the subject was not discussed there, but only at the meeting the BEF arranged later on. And on neither occassion was any regsitration fee discussed as far as I remember so it cannot have been me who told you not to complain about the fee. I may have suggested that you leave getting recognition for CBs in France to the CBHS in the hope that they would do something themselves (which sadly they didn't but I don't think I can be blamed for that ) but as I did not know about the fee rates I could not have suggested you did anythng (or indeed nothing) about them.

Hope that clarifies things a little.

Actually Ciss you spoke to me from your mobile phone. Your attitude to me was that the registration fee was not important. It was small beer relative to the cost of importing the horse.

Prior to the Stoneleigh meeting, I sent a list of questions to DEFRA and CBHS which included why does France charge 42 euros for a French passport and (at that time) 110 euros to overstamp the passport of an imported horse. The question was NOT asked.

This is why I invited Xavier Guibert to come and meet us, when I knew he would be at Lion D'Anger three day event in 2009. He and Caroline Teyssier head of SIRE came to dinner, we had a very pleasant meeting with them and have enjoyed cordial relations ever since.

He answered all the questions, which I had already submitted.

I am about to start another thread.