Eurodressage being sued by Anky/Sjef

"The walk is regular, free and unconstrained. The trot is free, supple, regular
and active. The canter is united, light and balanced. The hindquarters are
never inactive or sluggish. The horse responds to the slightest indication of
the athlete and thereby gives life and spirit to all the rest of its body.

4. By virtue of a lively impulsion and the suppleness of the joints, free from the
paralysing effects of resistance, the horse obeys willingly and without
hesitation and responds to the various aids calmly and with precision,
displaying a natural and harmonious balance both physically and mentally.

5. In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is
said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched
according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace,
accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The
head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the
vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance
should be offered to the athlete."

From http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fi...GE/Rules/Dre_Rules-09_update2010_Black_DM.pdf - the official FEI rules.

With particular reference to paragraph 5 - where does rollkur or overbending fit with "The
head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the
vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck,"

Wether Rollkur is cruel or not (personaly I don't like it) those who train extensively using the method should not be winning as it DOES (watch the videos, even the non-rollkur ones) lead to the nose behind the vertical and the 3rd vetebrae being the highest rather than the poll. One does not have to go to the extremes of rollkur or LDR to achieve this look though, it is the prevelant one in many diciplines at the moment. Right or wrong on a welfare level the FEI should either change their rules to reflect their judging or change their judging to reflect their rules.
 
Halfstep said:
There was a lot of fuss about it then, and for a lot of people it was the first time the whole idea of Rollkur came onto their radar. For what its worth, that article in St. Georg was far, far more damning than anything Astrid has written. The issue now is that the FEI has said that Rollkur is not allowed, but has not defined it. So to accuse Anky of Rollkur is to say she's breaking the FEI rules, but no one knows what Rollkur is in the eyes of the FEI, so it is a massive great mess (surprise, surprise).
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Thanks, I genuinely could not remember; though I still remember the article very well (I must still have it somewhere). Yes that specific article was more damning, but then again, in my humble opinion A. has been, on occasions, *extremely* unprofessional, I think this issue (the picture and caption) is just the proverbial last straw for AVG & SJ.
 
spaniel said:
Booboos I feel a good starting point would be if you spent some time aquainting yourself with how the horses body works. Until then I dont think we have much common ground so any time spent by me here in stating my case is probably either wasted or lost on you.
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I feel that responding to my ignorance by refusing to enlighten me and insisting I go off and do something else is a bit mean. I may be slow and require a bit of help, but be kind and share your insights.

For what it's worth I have followed up with all the suggestions I have had so far. I have gone off and read Dr H, Anja Beran, Baucher (both editions) and Phillippe Karl, as well as every study that has been brought to my attention so it's not as if I am not trying! Any suggestions on how I can acquaint myself with how the horse's body works? (please keep in mind that a vet degree may just be too tough to pull off).
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Thanks, I genuinely could not remember; though I still remember the article very well (I must still have it somewhere). Yes that specific article was more damning, but then again, in my humble opinion A. has been, on occasions, *extremely* unprofessional, I think this issue (the picture and caption) is just the proverbial last straw for AVG & SJ.
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I suppose the issue with Astrid is that her comments were presented as "reportage" on specific tests, rather than as op ed.

For me, the issue is with the FEI's "new guidelines" which are hopelessly opaque, and I thought it was just a matter of time before a lawsuit resulted in one way or another. But I truly don't see what AVG and SJ have to gain on this one? They have demonstrated their system including LDR in public lots of times. There are photos that were published in Horse and Hound and other publications of Anky riding at the Global Forum in LDR in 2007ish. There are videos all over the internet, and far, far more nasty commentary than Astrid's can be easily found. I know that the Max-Theurer's had a case brought against Heuschmann about a photo of Vici that he used to demonstrate something he considered incorrect - this I can understand more, because he was selling a book and video on the back of it. Not sure what happened there, does anyone remember?
 
have to rush as I have to be somewhere else. Ive C and P'd this from FH...
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Home › Reports › Shows › Anky van Grunsven Sues Eurodressage
Anky van Grunsven Sues Eurodressage

Tue, 08/24/2010 - 23:10

Anky van Grunsven and Salinero at the 2010 CDI-W 's Hertogenbosch
Photo © Astrid AppelsDutch Dressage News
The renowned dressage rider Anky van Grunsven feels defamed by equestrian journalist Astrid Appels of Eurodressage.com. According to Anky images of her horses can not be connected to the controversial rollkur training method. This is a system developed by Anky and her trainer and life partner Sjef Janssen in which the horse is bending its neck in an extreme way.

Following years of research and a conclusion by the International Equestrian Federation (FEI), the Dutch Equestrian Federation (KNHS) has decided in February that, “as of today hyperflexion/rollkur is seen as an aggressive way of a deep moving horse. This is forbidden as well as any head-neck position which is obtained in an aggressive way. The LDR-method, on the other hand, obtains a deep bending of the neck without force and this is allowed.”

Much has been written about this controversial system in combination with animal welfare. And so has journalist Astrid Appels who has paid attention to this topic on her website www.eurodressage.com. Through highly aggressive and intimidating emails Anky van Grunsven and Sjef Janssen have tried to prevent this, but Appels appeals to the freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

In his correspondence Sjef Janssen has sworn at Appels like a sailor. A few quotes:

“You are a tiny miserable figure”
“You’ll be next”
“You’re totally deranged”
“You’re just pathetic”
“You continue to be a super bitch”
“you belong in line with the German journalist mafia”
Appels is shocked by these intimidating and slanderous remarks by the official team trainer of The Netherlands and considers taking necessary legal steps against this.

This court case will start in ’s Hertogenbosch on 8 September 2010.

Appels is represented by Mr. J.A. Weda and Mr. S. Wensing

Related Link
FEI Round Table Conference Resolves Rollkur Controversy
FEI Publishes Diagrams for Stewards Manual on Warm-Up Techniques

EURODRESSAGE on Television concerning Anky case: RTL Boulevard: Over 't Paard Getild

Hope it makes sense.
 
lillith said:
They aren't necesarily a non-bias site as it is obvious that the author has very strong views but http://www.sustainabledressage.net/ has a lot of information on why the author feels rollkur is wrong - it is a little lite on references for the physiological claims though.
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The problem with sites like this one, and with the book by Gerd Heuschmann, and other similar websites, is that there simply isn't any research that demonstrates, using standard scientific principles, that rollkur or any of its cognomens, does cause damage to a horse, physically or psychologically. This does not mean that it doesn't cause damage (nor that it does), just that it has not been proven. And because it has not been proven, most of the commentary comes down to: "it looks awful, I don't like it", v.s. "look at how well x's horse has done, it must be fine to train like that". In other words, a discussion about anecdotal observations, personal preferences with an awful lot of emotion thrown in.
 
Booboos said:
I feel that responding to my ignorance by refusing to enlighten me and insisting I go off and do something else is a bit mean. I may be slow and require a bit of help, but be kind and share your insights.

For what it's worth I have followed up with all the suggestions I have had so far. I have gone off and read Dr H, Anja Beran, Baucher (both editions) and Phillippe Karl, as well as every study that has been brought to my attention so it's not as if I am not trying! Any suggestions on how I can acquaint myself with how the horse's body works? (please keep in mind that a vet degree may just be too tough to pull off).
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Booboos my comment was in no way an attempt to be mean I promise. However what I didnt want to do was prattle on at great length and for it to not make much sense! When I have some time in the next few days I will have a go at explaining what I feel happens to the structures when in a hyperextended state.
 
Sorry for double post but here is some more,

Part 1 http://web.me.com/equinesportsmed/Dr.Gellman/Publications_files/EqNuchalLig1.pdf
Part 2 http://web.mac.com/equinesportsmed/Dr.Gellman/Publications_files/EqNuchalLig2.pdf - some information on the nuchal ligament running down the back purported to be strained by rollkur, found that the ligament is very important in storing energy for locomotion and this use depends on head movement.

http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2007-0918-200827/c2.pdf
Rhodin - a PDF (hope the link works) - Study on the effect of head and neck positions on movement.

http://diss-epsilon.slu.se:8080/archive/00001680/01/Rhodin_2008_1.pdf
Rhodin - study shows that head and neck position do effect the movement of the back, especialy in walk.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1995.tb04883.x/abstract
Just the abstract but conclusions on the effect of head/neck position on airways.

Just a few off google scholar, not saying which side they support but they have some information.

@ Halfstep - I know :) That is my problem with the arguments, intsinctively I don't like Rollkur, however I don't like to spout off too much without a little more backup - hence the above bit of googling. I wont give my opinion as to what the articles back though as that is for people to decide themselves once they have read it. The pics on sustainabledressage get me a little - they come across as a very good argument but I can't find any reference where they got the physiological 'facts' from though.
 
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Spaniel: Many thanks, I look forward to that.

Lillith: thanks for these!
Gelman 1&2: I have to admit I don't understand these two and their implications for rollkur. They are quite technically demanding for me, anyone mind putting it in simpler terms for me?

Rhodin 1: this seems to suggest that hollow (position 5) is the problem which is interesting for the thousands of riders who ride with no contact. On the whole this doesn't seem negative towards rollkur, but have I missed the point?
(As an aside F persists in putting himself in position 3, despite my best efforts to encourage him to lengthen his neck...I have to make him read this article! :) )

Rhodin dissertation: haven't read this one as it's huge, but will make my way to it in the next few days. It might make the implications of Rhodin 1 clearer for me.

Petsche: I have read the full text of this one and it is slightly misleading as it has nothing to do with rollkur. It demonstrates a respiratory problem with what we would call an "on the bit" position with the head on or slightly in front of the vertical as opposed to an extended position - a result that seems significant for race horses. If there is a problem here, then it applies to all dressage horses (or any other horse ridden on what we would all agree is the ideal position). (in terms of Rhodin's diagrams it's position 2 that they find problematic)
 
Lillith, thanks for the links!

Some of the points which stood out for me:

http://diss-epsilon.slu.se:8080/arch...din_2008_1.pdf
'Horses worked regularly in (hyperflexion) develop a straight, flat back line, with inactive trailing hind legs and no noticeable flexion in the haunches during collection or extended movements. The trailing of the hind legs can be explained by the fact that the back fascia connects with the large muscle groups of the hind limbs (Fig. 9).'

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1995.tb04883.x/abstract
'We conclude that during strenuous exercise head and neck extension has little effect on upper airway flow mechanics, but that head and neck flexion causes upper airway obstruction.' Has this got anything to do with rollkur? I can't access the whole link so have just read the synopsis, unfortunately.

http://web.mac.com/equinesportsmed/Dr.Gellman/Publications_files/EqNuchalLig2.pdf
'Other functions of head position at the walk must be recognized. These include such factors as retention of visual fields and vestibular orientation.'

I do have a few queries regarding this study - is the author suggesting that when I ride my horses 'on the bit' (ie. slightly in front of the vertical) I am in fact contributing to skeletal damage by influencing head and neck movements? Perhaps I have interpreted it totally inaccurately, it isn't the first time (!)

The first quote is a direct one from Dr H. It is becoming more evident (to me, at least) that we are unlikely to get a definitive scientific study damning rollkur for some time. It is enough for me to be comforted by general criticism it's use met with from the majority of respected, professional horse people. We can only hope that international judges begin to start rewarding positively ridden and trained horses at the upper levels.
 
lillith said:
"
5. In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit”. A horse is
said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched
according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace,
accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The
head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the
vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance
should be offered to the athlete."

From http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fi...GE/Rules/Dre_Rules-09_update2010_Black_DM.pdf - the official FEI rules.
Click to expand...

I love this!
 
Booboos said:
I'm sorry, I am not explaining myself well here. So this study looks into whether horses have an aversion to being ridden in rollkur, and if they do presumably we will conclude that they shouldn't be ridden in rollkur. If there was a no ridding control group this would check whether horses also have an aversion to being ridden, and by the same logic we should conclude that horses should not be ridden at all.
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If this study was carried out, and it was concluded that horses had a pain and fear response to being ridden, then yes, we should conclude that horses should not be ridden at all. I'm sure that the majority of horse owners would stop riding their horses if they consistently exhibited a pain/fear response to being ridden.

The study showed a pain and fear response to being ridden in rollkur. Perhaps my use of the word 'aversion' was far too open to interpretation.
 
Glad to be of help,

@Booboos - like I said it is for people to decide themselves whether the studies show up for or against (or irelevant to) rollkur, they are simply studies I felt had relevance to the discussion of head position.

From #1 and #2 I got that the nuchal ligament - a ligament running down the spine which may people arguing against rollkur say is damaged by it (see sustainabledressage) is a flexible ligament which has elastic recoil properties which help an animal as big as a horse move with the minimum muscular effort and the movement of the head is vital to this - therefore preventing head movement would be an issue?

the_sophies picked out some good points from the other articles, the one about airway compromising/head position I thought was relevant because of the arguments that rollkur interfers with the breathing, I didn't have time to read it fully but it seems that head position in the less extreme 'on the bit' position effects resistance in the upper airways but not tidal volume so it can affect breathing but not hugely - it would be interesting to see a similar study on rollkur

@Seth - the studies on kinematics and head position indicated that an extremely high head position hollows the back and reduces stride length but I haven't actualy seen a study to show that hollowing the back weakens it, hmmm sill look into that. I got from them that a 'star gazing' position definately isnt good but whether 'on the bit' is genuinely better than relaxed head down I don't know. I have been told that a good western reiner will get it's weight off the forehand and use itself properly with the lower head stuck out position compared the the english ideal for up and on the bit so perhaps it is not required for engagement.
 
lillith said:
@Booboos - like I said it is for people to decide themselves whether the studies show up for or against (or irelevant to) rollkur, they are simply studies I felt had relevance to the discussion of head position.

From #1 and #2 I got that the nuchal ligament - a ligament running down the spine which may people arguing against rollkur say is damaged by it (see sustainabledressage) is a flexible ligament which has elastic recoil properties which help an animal as big as a horse move with the minimum muscular effort and the movement of the head is vital to this - therefore preventing head movement would be an issue?
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Yes, of course, I was not suggesting you held any view, just wondering if any of this clarifies the rollkur debate.

Thanks for this.

QR: As far as I understand the study it seems to suggest that "The neck angle has important effects on the magnitude of strain energy on the NL: the larger the neck angle, the lower the head, and the more the NL is stretched." This supports Dr H's claim that young horses should be started long and low, but not for very long as the NL is stretched in this position (whether many people do 1.5 to 2 years of short long and low sessions though, I don't know).

Again, as far as I can tell, this study doesn't really say anything about rollkur. Dr H's claim about the harm of rollkur is that it "puts enormous tension on the upper neck muscles and ligament system, and the back via the supraspinous ligament" (p.88 Tug of War).
 
Double posting please excuse, and it is a long one, found some more articles I thought were relevant, last one is very interesting.

http://www.narcis.info/publication/RecordID/oai:dspace.library.uu.nl:1874/22858
-Only got access to summary
“In Chapter-2 it was shown that changes in the head-and-neck position influence back kinematics. Lowering the head-and-neck flexes the vertebral column, while it increases range of motion (ROM); by lifting the head-and-neck the column extends and ROM becomes reduced. It was concluded that the low position of the head-and-neck increase vertebral movement. On the other hand, an extremely high head-and-neck position provokes reduced movement and an extended posture of the back.”
- Again no access to definition of ‘low’ or ‘extremely high’ but indicates that stargazing would reduce the range of motion (ROM) of the spine.


http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...bodyId=&membershipNumber=&societyETOCSession=
- Full text.
Perhaps not entirely relevant but interesting that the use of the pessoa and side reins caused no increase in the use of the longissimus dorsi (long muscles running down the back) while lunging. Would perhaps suggest that fixing the head in an on the bit position does not affect the use of this particular muscle though the horses were not ridden and most arguments for on the bit are to do the horse’s ability to carry a rider rather than move without.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2746/042516409X394436/abstract
- Abstract only
“The movements of the horse are significantly different when ridden on loose reins compared to the position used in collected trot. The exact degree of neck flexion is, however, not consistently correlated to the movements of the horse's limbs and trunk at collected trot. An extremely elevated neck position can produce some effects commonly associated with increased degree of collection, but the increased back extension observed with this position may place the horse at risk of injury if ridden in this position for a prolonged period.”

http://www.iceep.org/pdf/iceep3/_1130105534_001.pdf
- Full text (pdf)
Study of the use of the neck muscles of the horse with and without a rider, shows that the muscles are used differently with a rider indicating that they are important in coping with the rider’s weight – whether this is affected by rollkur/head position is not covered though.

http://knmvd.nl/uri/?uri=AMGATE_7364_1_TICH_R41001038475199
- Full text (PDF)
“Workload and stress in horses: comparison in horses ridden deep and round (‘rollkur’) with a draw rein and horses ridden in a natural frame with only light rein contact”
“Workload (as measured by heart rate and blood lactate concentration) was slightly higher when horses were ridden ‘rollkur’ than when they were ridden ‘free’. There were no differences in packed cell volume, or glucose and cortisol concentrations. No signs of uneasiness or stress could be determined when the horses were ridden
‘rollkur’. Subjectively, all horses improved their way of moving during ‘rollkur’ and were more responsive to their rider.”
- Interesting- one that says it may not be so bad.

I can't find anything about the long term affects at the moment though.

@booboos - exactly why I said the site was a good place to read the arguments but very lite on the references, I have no idea where that claim came from and can't find any studies
 
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Thank you to everyone who has made this thread such fascinating and informed debate and I certainly bow to the superior knowledge of other contributors to this forum. But Rollkur always appears to draw attention to the head and neck position, which in many respects is the last thing that should be considered. The horses head should hang lightly, softly and swing from the poll, this is a product of the action of the hind legs and something that simply cannot be achieved by Rollkur.

Any good training method must be suitable for ALL horses and although I have no experience nor would I wish to of Rollkur, I cannot see how this technique would work on anything other than a very strong forward going horse?
 
Mearas said:
Thank you to everyone who has made this thread such fascinating and informed debate and I certainly bow to the superior knowledge of other contributors to this forum. But Rollkur always appears to draw attention to the head and neck position, which in many respects is the last thing that should be considered. The horses head should hang lightly, softly and swing from the poll, this is a product of the action of the hind legs and something that simply cannot be achieved by Rollkur.

Any good training method must be suitable for ALL horses and although I have no experience nor would I wish to of Rollkur, I cannot see how this technique would work on anything other than a very strong forward going horse?
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Out of interest just repeating what AVG said at the BD convention a couple of years ago:
- rollkur is not suitable for all horses, one must use the method which is most suited to that particular horse, its strengths and weaknesses. At the time I believe she said that she did not use it on Painted Black, nor did she ride him in rollkur (although I don't know what she may have done before/since).
- she also repeated very strongly that the back end must be really engaged for rollkur to work and the energy must come from behind. She said the method is open to abuse if not done correctly with a lot of power from behind. The horse she did demonstrate rollkur on (sorry can't remember its name) was, to my eyes, working from behind and seemed very powerful.

I think on these points I do agree with her, one method does not suit all horses/riders and any method can be abused in the wrong hands.
 
Interesting points from both sides in this thread.

Thought I would just link to this video of Anky herself "explaining" this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU&feature=related

As you can tell she doesn't seem to know much about the technical details herself rather than she varies how long she does it to keep things varied in the training. In her own words - time flies when you're having fun!

From seeing this video it is clear she doesn't seem to know the ins and outs herself. She does not know how long she stays hyperflexed for, and her logic is that it doesn't matter anyway because her horses are top sports horses and are just a total different species to other horses.

And as for her throwaway explanation that "if a horse doesn't want to do something, it won't do it", well - that's excellent reasoning Anky, really top class.
 
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For me this is why this system fails on so many levels. Firstly, I love classical dressage, correctly taught it is a system that is suitable and achieves results in ANY horse. One of the problems with a system like Rollkur, it seems to me, that it was designed to achieve results in the Competition Arena? This seems to negate everything for me that dressage is.
Dressage Competition was originally organised to test the way that the training of a horse was progressing, irrespective of its breeding, confirmation etc. It was the quality of the training that was being assessed, eg. the rider not the horse. With the introduction of the Kur, more extravagent, crowd pleasing, movement was desired and it would appear at the expense of the horses training. Some would say this is progress???
 
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