severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Looking at Heidi's pedigree, both parents were A, but her grandfather on the fathers side is a C1 - is that equivelent to a high score under UK hip scoring?
European Hip scoring (again)
- Thread starter severnmiles
- Start date
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
From Wikipedia (and later SKK + its magazine Hundsport) :
The British Veterinary Association uses the following criteria to determine hip score:
1. Norberg Angle
2. Subluxation
3. Cranial Acetabular Edge
4. Dorsal Acetabular Edge
5. Cranial Effective Acetabular Rim
6. Acetabular Fossa
7. Caudal Acetabular Edge
8. Femoral Head/Neck Exostosis
9. Femoral Head Recontouring
The lower the score, the less the degree of dysplasia present. The minimum (best) score for each hip is zero and the maximum (worst) is 53, giving a range for the total of 0 to 106.
The following table compares the scores recognised by Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals (OFI), Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI), the British Veterinary Association (BVA) and Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV).
OFA (USA) <font color="green">E</font> ~ <font color="#666666">G</font> ~ <font color="purple">F</font> ~ <font color="blue">B</font> ~ <font color="brown">M</font> ~ <font color="orange">Mod</font> ~ <font color="red">S</font>
FCI (European) <font color="green">A-1</font> ~ <font color="#666666">A-2</font> ~ <font color="purple">B-1</font> ~ <font color="blue">B-2</font> ~ <font color="brown">C</font> ~ <font color="orange">D</font> ~ <font color="red">E</font>
BVA (UK/Australia) <font color="green">0-4 (no > 3/hip)</font> ~ <font color="#666666">5-10 (no > 6/hip)</font> ~ <font color="purple">11-18</font> ~ <font color="blue">19-25</font> ~ <font color="brown">26-35</font> ~ <font color="orange">36-50</font> ~ <font color="red">51-106</font>
SV (Germany) <font color="green">Normal</font> ~ <font color="#666666">Normal</font> ~ <font color="purple">Normal</font> ~ <font color="blue">Fast Normal</font> ~ <font color="brown">Noch Zugelassen</font> ~ <font color="orange">Mittlere</font> ~ <font color="red">Schwere</font>
In comparison Sweden now almost only uses the Norberg angle in cases where it is difficult to decide between the best grade (A) and the next best grade (B). As I understand it, we have almost stopped using the Norberg angle because the statistic (f. ex. from a in number large breed as Golden Retriever) showed that breeding on dogs with GOOD hip score determined by Norberg angle, produced an increased number of dogs with less good, worse hip scores. So since previous "system" meant that using dogs with good scores improved the number of good result, SKK have decided to minimize the use of the Norberg angle for the time being.
Current grade <font color="green">A</font> ~ <font color="purple">B</font> ~ <font color="blue">C</font> ~ <font color="orange">D</font> ~ <font color="red">E</font>
Old grade <font color="green">u.a. (without note)</font> ~ <font color="purple">u.a. (without note)</font> ~ <font color="blue">grade I</font> ~ <font color="orange">grade II</font> ~ <font color="red">grade III-IV</font>
Explanation <font color="green">Normal hip joint</font> ~ <font color="purple">Almost normal hip joint</font> ~ <font color="blue">Hip joint slight dysplasia</font> ~ <font color="orange">Hip joint moderate dysplasia</font> ~ <font color="red">Hip joint severe dysplasia</font>
Our current grades are defined as follow :
Grade A. The hip joint is an absolute fit and a deep cup (acetabulum) that is at least half of the femur head. Is the cup very deep and fine may, in exceptional cases, a minimal deviation still equal A.
Grade B. Fit between the cup (acetabulum) and the femur head have shortcomings, but the cup is deep enough.
Grade C. Either the fit is worse than that of A- and B-hip or the cups (acetabulum) depth covers less than 50 percent of the femur head.
Grade D. The cups (acetabulum) depth covers femur head to 30-40 percent.
Grade E. Femur head is almost always outside the cup (acetabulum), that is, it has virtually no coverage at all.
As for Heidi's parents being A + A, but grandfather on the fathers side is a C1 (classification used by/no longer used by ? Kennel club/Breed club), HD have a polygene heredity. The concept polygene heredity means the property in question is governed by a number of genes in interaction. Unlike the properties controlled by single genes, the polygenic can not clearly be categorized in two categories - are or are not.
Also due to it being a number of genes interacting, the quality of environmental things such as age, feeding, etc. are more likely to be able to also affect the HD result.
Sorry for the long reply.
The British Veterinary Association uses the following criteria to determine hip score:
1. Norberg Angle
2. Subluxation
3. Cranial Acetabular Edge
4. Dorsal Acetabular Edge
5. Cranial Effective Acetabular Rim
6. Acetabular Fossa
7. Caudal Acetabular Edge
8. Femoral Head/Neck Exostosis
9. Femoral Head Recontouring
The lower the score, the less the degree of dysplasia present. The minimum (best) score for each hip is zero and the maximum (worst) is 53, giving a range for the total of 0 to 106.
The following table compares the scores recognised by Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals (OFI), Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI), the British Veterinary Association (BVA) and Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV).
OFA (USA) <font color="green">E</font> ~ <font color="#666666">G</font> ~ <font color="purple">F</font> ~ <font color="blue">B</font> ~ <font color="brown">M</font> ~ <font color="orange">Mod</font> ~ <font color="red">S</font>
FCI (European) <font color="green">A-1</font> ~ <font color="#666666">A-2</font> ~ <font color="purple">B-1</font> ~ <font color="blue">B-2</font> ~ <font color="brown">C</font> ~ <font color="orange">D</font> ~ <font color="red">E</font>
BVA (UK/Australia) <font color="green">0-4 (no > 3/hip)</font> ~ <font color="#666666">5-10 (no > 6/hip)</font> ~ <font color="purple">11-18</font> ~ <font color="blue">19-25</font> ~ <font color="brown">26-35</font> ~ <font color="orange">36-50</font> ~ <font color="red">51-106</font>
SV (Germany) <font color="green">Normal</font> ~ <font color="#666666">Normal</font> ~ <font color="purple">Normal</font> ~ <font color="blue">Fast Normal</font> ~ <font color="brown">Noch Zugelassen</font> ~ <font color="orange">Mittlere</font> ~ <font color="red">Schwere</font>
In comparison Sweden now almost only uses the Norberg angle in cases where it is difficult to decide between the best grade (A) and the next best grade (B). As I understand it, we have almost stopped using the Norberg angle because the statistic (f. ex. from a in number large breed as Golden Retriever) showed that breeding on dogs with GOOD hip score determined by Norberg angle, produced an increased number of dogs with less good, worse hip scores. So since previous "system" meant that using dogs with good scores improved the number of good result, SKK have decided to minimize the use of the Norberg angle for the time being.
Current grade <font color="green">A</font> ~ <font color="purple">B</font> ~ <font color="blue">C</font> ~ <font color="orange">D</font> ~ <font color="red">E</font>
Old grade <font color="green">u.a. (without note)</font> ~ <font color="purple">u.a. (without note)</font> ~ <font color="blue">grade I</font> ~ <font color="orange">grade II</font> ~ <font color="red">grade III-IV</font>
Explanation <font color="green">Normal hip joint</font> ~ <font color="purple">Almost normal hip joint</font> ~ <font color="blue">Hip joint slight dysplasia</font> ~ <font color="orange">Hip joint moderate dysplasia</font> ~ <font color="red">Hip joint severe dysplasia</font>
Our current grades are defined as follow :
Grade A. The hip joint is an absolute fit and a deep cup (acetabulum) that is at least half of the femur head. Is the cup very deep and fine may, in exceptional cases, a minimal deviation still equal A.
Grade B. Fit between the cup (acetabulum) and the femur head have shortcomings, but the cup is deep enough.
Grade C. Either the fit is worse than that of A- and B-hip or the cups (acetabulum) depth covers less than 50 percent of the femur head.
Grade D. The cups (acetabulum) depth covers femur head to 30-40 percent.
Grade E. Femur head is almost always outside the cup (acetabulum), that is, it has virtually no coverage at all.
As for Heidi's parents being A + A, but grandfather on the fathers side is a C1 (classification used by/no longer used by ? Kennel club/Breed club), HD have a polygene heredity. The concept polygene heredity means the property in question is governed by a number of genes in interaction. Unlike the properties controlled by single genes, the polygenic can not clearly be categorized in two categories - are or are not.
Also due to it being a number of genes interacting, the quality of environmental things such as age, feeding, etc. are more likely to be able to also affect the HD result.
Sorry for the long reply.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Hey thats a really useful table FLH, thanks very much. I have only had experience of the SV A stamp and of course BVA scheme, and have heard of some discrepancies where a dog with A stamp normal has scored fairly high under BVA scheme, but in generally that seems a really good guide. You lose me when you start talking genetics though
SevernMistletoe, as I know you are aware, hip scores in what ever form are only a guide, sounds as if Heidi's parents are good so possible the C1 further back in the pedigree is a blip that the breeders have managed to overcome.
SevernMistletoe, as I know you are aware, hip scores in what ever form are only a guide, sounds as if Heidi's parents are good so possible the C1 further back in the pedigree is a blip that the breeders have managed to overcome.
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
First I want to clarify that the old grade is what SKK used until about the end of year 1999, then they changed to our current grading system year 2000 and then they also started using the Norberg angle as a "tool" to decide the grade.
But some time from late year 2007 to early 2008, SKK decided that the use of the Norberg angle did not improve the breeding, without the statistic rather showed that it somehow actually made more dogs with wrong genes get A-hip grades. So SKK decided that for the time being, the Norberg angle will (almost?) only be used as an aid to decide when it's difficult to decide what grade a hip should get.
However the grading haven't changed again.
MurphysMinder don't know if I can explain it that well, but I will try. I'm rather sure you know the following but have patience with me, if you're breeding horses and have a chestnut coloured mare, she has inherited one recessive chestnut gene from her father and one recessive chestnut gene from her mother.
If you breed your chestnut mare to a stallion of some other colour, the foal doesn't have to become chestnut.
But if you choose a chestnut stallion, that also has to have one recessive chestnut gene from his father and one recessive chestnut gene from his mother, the foal has to become chestnut, because neither parent have any other colour-gene the foal can inherit.
The Chestnut + Chestnut always equal Chestnut foal is an excellent example of where though recessive genes, there can only be one result. It's also an example of a property controlled by single genes, the gene is either there or it's not there.
Unlike that example, Hip dysplasia is a property controlled by polygenes = several genes, and not all has to be there/inherited for the dog to develop HD. If a dog inherits several of those genes it can develop HD, even though environmentally everything is as good as possible, such as no over-feeding, neither to little or to much exercise when to young etc.
If a dog only inherits a few of those genes it can still develop HD, most likely because of environmental things like over-feeding, to little or to much exercise when to young etc.
So a property controlled by polygenes, such as HD, can't be categorized simply into the dog either has the gene or it hasn't. That is why a pedigree full of dogs with good HD-scores/grades can still contain several of these polygenes, and why a dog with less good HD-scores/grades in it's pedigree still doesn't HAVE TO have inherited several of these polygenes.
Hip dysplasia is a jungle and there's (yet) no simple answers.
But some time from late year 2007 to early 2008, SKK decided that the use of the Norberg angle did not improve the breeding, without the statistic rather showed that it somehow actually made more dogs with wrong genes get A-hip grades. So SKK decided that for the time being, the Norberg angle will (almost?) only be used as an aid to decide when it's difficult to decide what grade a hip should get.
However the grading haven't changed again.
MurphysMinder don't know if I can explain it that well, but I will try. I'm rather sure you know the following but have patience with me, if you're breeding horses and have a chestnut coloured mare, she has inherited one recessive chestnut gene from her father and one recessive chestnut gene from her mother.
If you breed your chestnut mare to a stallion of some other colour, the foal doesn't have to become chestnut.
But if you choose a chestnut stallion, that also has to have one recessive chestnut gene from his father and one recessive chestnut gene from his mother, the foal has to become chestnut, because neither parent have any other colour-gene the foal can inherit.
The Chestnut + Chestnut always equal Chestnut foal is an excellent example of where though recessive genes, there can only be one result. It's also an example of a property controlled by single genes, the gene is either there or it's not there.
Unlike that example, Hip dysplasia is a property controlled by polygenes = several genes, and not all has to be there/inherited for the dog to develop HD. If a dog inherits several of those genes it can develop HD, even though environmentally everything is as good as possible, such as no over-feeding, neither to little or to much exercise when to young etc.
If a dog only inherits a few of those genes it can still develop HD, most likely because of environmental things like over-feeding, to little or to much exercise when to young etc.
So a property controlled by polygenes, such as HD, can't be categorized simply into the dog either has the gene or it hasn't. That is why a pedigree full of dogs with good HD-scores/grades can still contain several of these polygenes, and why a dog with less good HD-scores/grades in it's pedigree still doesn't HAVE TO have inherited several of these polygenes.
Hip dysplasia is a jungle and there's (yet) no simple answers.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
You are so right that HD is a jungle, when I look now at how long some people have being x raying and hip scoring in GSDs, and yet still bad hips turn up out of several generations of good
I do understand the basics of genetics (have studied Dr Malcolm Willis' book but most of it goes over my head
).
I don't know if you have a scientific background but your knowledge and ability to explain is great, particularly in what I presume is not your first language.
I wonder if things would be simpler if I started breeding budgies
I don't know if you have a scientific background but your knowledge and ability to explain is great, particularly in what I presume is not your first language.
I wonder if things would be simpler if I started breeding budgies
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
I don't have any scientific background, I'm just interested in both animals and books. Probably don't remember half of what I read though, but very happy to hear you think I explain well
(and you're right, English is not my first language).
When it comes to genetics I can only admit that though I usually understand the basics when I read them, I can get lost when it comes to all the ins and outs details. If I don't get lost there, it's still the part about remembering what was what, how and why and...
I have Dr. Malcolm B. Willis book 'Genetics of the dogs' and understanding f. ex. that 44 cases was examined and in 75% of the cases trauma was absent or minimal, 22 in 44 Shetland Sheepdog, 10 in 44 Collie crosses, population seen at the clinic was 2,7 and 6,7% respectively, all of that is no problem.
It's all the other text and numbers about other case studies, names of people or places and years and not to mention the terminology, that makes it feels as if my brain starts to sing "Lalalalala - I'm not listening." And the fact that after reading 'In respect of tarso-metatarsal subluxation the Glasgow data related to only eight dogs and although three were Collies no real conclusion can be drawn', I can't find any tarso, tarso-metatarsal or metatarsal in my dictionary, doesn't help much either.
I really like the book, but I only read small pieces from it at a time.
Budgerigars haven't been scrutinized as much as dogs, so I don't know if it really is easier or it just seems that way. *whispers* Though years ago, when I had budgies and bred a "clutch",
I did mostly wonder if there would be any babies and what colour they would get. Same as with the Hamsters and the Guinea Pigs.
*stops whispering*
Sorry for hi-jacking your thread SevernMistletoe
, will try and stop now.
When it comes to genetics I can only admit that though I usually understand the basics when I read them, I can get lost when it comes to all the ins and outs details. If I don't get lost there, it's still the part about remembering what was what, how and why and...
I have Dr. Malcolm B. Willis book 'Genetics of the dogs' and understanding f. ex. that 44 cases was examined and in 75% of the cases trauma was absent or minimal, 22 in 44 Shetland Sheepdog, 10 in 44 Collie crosses, population seen at the clinic was 2,7 and 6,7% respectively, all of that is no problem.
It's all the other text and numbers about other case studies, names of people or places and years and not to mention the terminology, that makes it feels as if my brain starts to sing "Lalalalala - I'm not listening." And the fact that after reading 'In respect of tarso-metatarsal subluxation the Glasgow data related to only eight dogs and although three were Collies no real conclusion can be drawn', I can't find any tarso, tarso-metatarsal or metatarsal in my dictionary, doesn't help much either.
I really like the book, but I only read small pieces from it at a time.
Budgerigars haven't been scrutinized as much as dogs, so I don't know if it really is easier or it just seems that way. *whispers* Though years ago, when I had budgies and bred a "clutch",
Sorry for hi-jacking your thread SevernMistletoe
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
FL, thank you!! You've put it in a brilliant way.
Yes, I understand there are many factors that affect the end result, I personally believe feed plays a big part.
Thanks again.
Yes, I understand there are many factors that affect the end result, I personally believe feed plays a big part.
Thanks again.