European showjumping team named

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madgirl

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David MchPherson and Pilgrim II
Ellen Whitaker and Locano
John Whitaker and peppermill
Micheal Whitaker and Suncal Portofino
Tim stockdale and freshly direct corlato

No idea who the reserves are
 
He jumped her this weekend just gone at the CSI**** (coruna), Corlato seemed be jumping well but no major placings.

Thought Nick Skelton might get a look in, Russel jumped well at hickstead on friday and Arko had his big win recently, I suppose there just not seen as consistent enough.
 
No surprises for me in the first four names there. I am surprised that Nick hasn't been named as the fifth rider though. Even with Russell he was our best score over two rounds at Hickstead and has more experience than anyone other than John and Michael.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a late substitution nearer the time (as was the case for Hickstead AND WEG last year) bringing Nick's name into the frame. A major championships without Arko just doesn't seem right does it
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it does when he has been stopping al the time, every major championship he has been to, or world cup final he stops or has a cricket score. he is very unpredictable and that is why he is not on the team, you cant keep people on teams for nostalgia! thats why we dont win any thing major. russel is good but if he is feeling cheeky he can also slam on the brakes... both have done a huge amount in a short time.
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it does when he has been stopping al the time, every major championship he has been to, or world cup final he stops or has a cricket score. he is very unpredictable and that is why he is not on the team, you cant keep people on teams for nostalgia! thats why we dont win any thing major. russel is good but if he is feeling cheeky he can also slam on the brakes... both have done a huge amount in a short time.
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I agree hecan be a bit unpredictable...but he's also won more than the rest of the team put together
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He also appears to be coming back into form as witnessed in Estoril just the other week.

I still think we have a decent team without him mind you
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I think the reason Nick Skelton wasnt named as part of the team with Arko was because he told the selectors he didnt want to compete Arko at the Europeans (it was written up in the national newspaper at the weekend) apparently he's decided that jumping solidly for several days might damage Arko since he is only just back on form after his injury - he said he was saving him for the olympics
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I think the reason Nick Skelton wasnt named as part of the team with Arko was because he told the selectors he didnt want to compete Arko at the Europeans (it was written up in the national newspaper at the weekend) apparently he's decided that jumping solidly for several days might damage Arko since he is only just back on form after his injury - he said he was saving him for the olympics
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That could backfire if they don't qualify..... he is due an olympic medal, especially if Nick doesn't turn green again in the last round
 
Ooh Rambo isnt that just what is wrong with British showjumping though. Its always the same old 2s 6p (for all the oldies like me) When did we ever try something different.
I believe in the old saying " If you dont do anything different dont be surprised when nothing changes" & on that note I ask what have we really achieved in Senior Team British showjumping lately?
 
LOL! Well this could turn into a very long and protracted debate but what the heck...

To my mind the main problem with British Showjumping is the money....or rather the lack of it in this country. Without the financial incentives the world class horses simply are not bought into or retained over here. How many truly world classs horses do we have in the hands of British riders at the moment ? As i see it there's Arko (obviously), Peppermill, Portofino, Locarno and Pilgrim. You then have a fair few 'good' horses that would be considered by our foreign contempories as a useful backup but realistically they wouldn't be first choice for any of them in a major championships. Of the five truly world class horses mentioned, four have been selected and the other, from what has been mentioned above, is being saved for Hong Kong.

As for the team never changing, well, I agree the backbone of the team has been fairly constant for many years...but until some new faces come along and mount a serious challenge to their dominance, as evidenced in the FEI World Rankings, then I think we have to accept that they are our best hope of success
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That said, both Ellen and David McPherson are new faces on the squad this year, and indeed Tim Gredley gave the youth a chance at WEG last year.

I hope that London 2012 will provide the spur to drive some serious investment in the sport over the coming years, but unless that momentum is maintained then it will merely be a blip on the radar and we will pale into insignificance again soon afterwards.

I was looking at the results for RIHS the other day, and noted that our most prestigious SJ'ing class...the King George V Gold Cup carries a first prize of just £15k. Compare that to the £67k that Arko won in Estoril the week before as part of a series of eight rounds of similar value and you start to appreciate why the new investment isn't being made in horses in this country.

As often is the case our Pony, Junior and YR teams have done brilliantly again this year with an impressive medal tally. Perhaps we need to lift their formula and transplant it into the senior structure
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Good one Rambo!!

A couple of years ago I was round at a riders house and the snooker was on and he said that he knew Stephen Hendry and he couldn't beleive what the prize money was after all the costs involved with horses, when all he had to do was pick up a cue. This rider said that he was earning more in prize money 10 yeras ago then he is now and now has to spend all his time abroad, where the prize money is. Also more prize money means more points, more invites, more experience and higher rankings and that is why we have the same riders in the teams.

I was at the Quainton show yesterday, which I have to say was very well done and one of the best shows I have been to for years for spectators to watch (even the portable toilets were posh!) and attracted a very good field of riders. They had also attracted new sponsors like Royal Bank of Scotland Business banking. These are the types of shows we need more of and goes to show with a bit of thought and effort what can be achieved.

I also work in the Direct Marketing industry and therefore know what budgets are like and the sponsorship of classes would be short change for companies if the shows could be marketed better and attract more spectators.
 
The debate about the state of showjumping is an interesting one, I agree with Rambo in that there aren't a lot of tempting big money prizes over here and for an owner in this country, recouping the costs of initial outlay and being on the circuit would have to be secondary to enjoying the sport and horse as an interest / hobby.

Other problems lay closer to home in that it seems to be a bit of a closed shop , there are a lot of talented riders out their who don't have access to top quality horses to take them to grand prix / international level so at the moment you are reliant on the few who have rich parents / supporters or those whose family is steeped in tradition in the sport who are offered top rides. There doesn't visibly seem to be a system of selecting top potential riders and seeing who gets the best tune out of a horse selected from a pool of top horses. ( we all know horses perform according to who is riding them )

The world is becoming a smaller place and it is substantially cheaper to have a horse produced on the continent with arguably more successful riders, even taking into account the cost of a monthly easy jet ticket to see the horse.

In my experience there is still a way to go in terms of professional integrity when dealing with paying owners and I for one would not again become involved with a ' professional' again, I use the term losely as professional denotes a certain standard of morals, ethics and affiliation to a regconised body with teeth, we have all read poor publicity stories in H & H about when it goes wrong and owners have to resort to legal action to get anyone to listen. There needs to be a recognised independant arbitration system to resolve issues , protecting the rights of rider and owner and letting common sense prevail.
Even the girls on the BSJA stand at a recent event said they were hoping the younger generation of riders would 'clean up' the image of the sport.

Showjumping will always be a minority sport because of the sheer costs involved and as such it won't attract large sponsorship or funding because it is not an accessable sport to the majority. If you are given a million you might buy a good horse, look how far that same million would go in footie or athletics etc.

Showjumping is a great sport but IMO it needs to be run more as a business, these days its not enough to be a good rider you also need a good business brain and know how to look after your sponsors, owners etc in fact anyone who is going to financially invest in you.
 
LHS, you make some interesting points there particularly about the value of a million pounds in both football and athletics terms. In fact your choice of those two sports as an example is a good one. Football is indeed a booming industry buoyed by Sky television money and huge participation globally. Athletics on the other hand is another sport in decline. Very poor financial backing and very little air time these days. Both sports are 'cheap' to participate in but both with very different support bases.

Another example of a sport that is far from freely accessible to the masses is motor racing. There are few sports that compare in terms of cost and yet F1 has a huge fan base and massive investment in terms of sponsorship. So what makes it that much different to equestrian sport ? Perhaps we should get Bernie Ecclestone involved in horses
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I think the popularity problem with showjumping and other equestrian sports, is that is just not accessible to the general public.

There is great potential for interest, but traditionally people believe horses are just for posh people and snobs, and theres not enough done to change that image.

Likewise, people don't necessarily understand it, and if you don't get it, it loses interest.

Horse racing and formula 1 are both very popular, and neither are as visually interesting as sj/eventing etc. However they are simple and easy to understand, and it is easier for people to feel involved then.

I just think the image of sj/eventing needs to be changed, and it should be made easier for non horsey people to understand and get excited about. After all, unlike most other sports, in SJ and Eventing, England is among the top in the world.
 
The voice is quite right with the biggest problem.
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Also more prize money means more points, more invites, more experience and higher rankings and that is why we have the same riders in the teams.

You would not believe how difficult it is to get authorisation from the BSJA to go to a show abroad even when you get an invite. This has happened to me on several occasions, most recently last week. Approx 2 weeks ago we applied to go to a 3* in France that runs a Derby. After the success in the Hickstead Derby we thought it would be a good opportunity, we also got an invite to move down to Holland for 2 weekends showjumping at only 2* level. So on the basis of we have paid to get the waggon & 3 horses abroad in the first place make it a 3 week trip & get in some good shows & gain valuable experience. We fund the whole thing ourself, so not asking for any help whatsoever.
Although due to leave on Tuesday (yesterday) we eventually got authorisation on Monday.!!!!!! Others just go wherever without a problem.
So, my point is, How do you climb up the rankings, get better prize money & valuable experience if the association make it difficult for you to travel abroad. Theres no shortage of younger Whitakers & others with big named trainers going wherever they wish.
Sometimes I feel that doors actually get slammed shut. Lets face it if you dont get the opportunities you will never get chance to shine.
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I always compare showjumping with Speedway which in the 70's was a huge spectator sport (2nd largest after football), during the 90's disapeared and then with the right promotion and sky is now popular again. Showjumping has more participants than this sport so has a base to start with and we know it can be exciting. And here lies the problem, seeing horse after horse doing the same round is dull and boring for spectators and even competitors (that is why the Derby is so popular as you never know what is going to happen). There needs to be more short formated shows/tours/team events to attract viewers and spectators and to generate personalities, interest, sponsors. Also more entertainment whilst a course is built and walked which can take for ever and really drags a day out.

Totally agree about 'talent spotting' for horse and riders. As there are area reps,trainers these should be at shows and they should be able to say this horse, rider, combination are good, then they should be selected for some kind of trial or assesment and then developed.
 
I agree with all thats been said there about spectator interest, even on a local level away from the TV screens, an existing enthusiast finds it terminal hanging around for literally hours before seeing your horse go in the ring at a local show, at least dressage riders are given a time. Another thing that puzzles me is the grading system of a horse, Grade A is deemed to be a good horse that has money on its card but isn't the amount of money ( therefore the resultant grade ) just an indicator of how much time the rider has to spend going round all the shows just hoovering up prize funds when everybody else is at work etc, ( ie the competition is depleted ) is it really the best way of categorising horses.
 
I don't think it's fair to classify grade As as horses ridden by people who "have time to Hoover up prize-money while everyone esle is as work".

They have still got to jump courses of a certain level. And it's quite easy to assess from a horse's competition record whether they have won their money over something worthwhile. After all a 1.40m or 1.50m class is what it says on the tin from a height point of view.
 
Sorry didn't mean to offend anyone and I know there are a lot of hard working riders out there. The thread is about top level competition and IMO am not sure that identifying horses based on monetary winnings is of partcular value in assessing / finding horses who could win nationally / internationally. We have all seen professional producers scoot round on diesel money horses in the week when its generally quieter, so greater activity therefore bringing the chance of greater winnings, doesn't necessarily mean a great horse. Some horses are achieving winnings at 1.40 and no scope to go further and others doing the same but have huge potential to progress and they are both called Grade A's.. Just thinking there might be a different way of assessing things, didn't mean to upset anyone,
 
Once a horse has jumped out of Foxhunter does it really matter what it is graded? Unless it is a very special horse it probably will never jump bigger than a 1.25. The only advantage to grading to the BSJA is that they charge you more money in fees to join. If you were going to buy a horse you wouldn't just go of it's winings you would ask to see its print out so that you can assess its level. And a Diesel Horse still has to beat all the other Diesel horses
 
I agree that money winnings are fairly irrelevant in terms of grading horses...especilly so since the advent of 'Open' classes. A horse can go Grade A these days without ever jumping more than 1m or even less
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There are a few in our area that mop up at 1.05m and 1.10m week in week out. Of greater concern is the fact that entry to certain prestige classes such as Area Trials and the like is restricted to horses in Grade A. Obviously a horse that has only jumped 1m / 1.10m would soon come a cropper at 1.55m but you get my point. The other point about grading is that anyone can pay to upgrade their horse by buying out the difference between a horses notional winnings and the entry point for the next grade
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It would make much more sense to grade horses according to the level at which they are capable of competing...
 
Thank you Rambo, you seem to be someone who understands where i'm coming from, and are open minded enough to accept challenge or change. There is nothing wrong with considering current practices or procedures which may have been appropriate years ago and assessing whether they are relevant and appropriate today. Moving foward is part of any sport / business and the debate has ultimately been about progression in showjumping resulting in a stronger national team.
 
To get back to the main story in this thread (I dont have much knowledge of the British showjumping circuit), it seems a fairly solid team. Nice to see McPherson making Championship teams so soon after switching allegiance.
The Irish Team has also been named:
Cameron Hanley (Hippica- i think)
Marie Burke with Chippison
Jessica Kuten with both the Castle Forbes mares
Marion Hughes with Heritage Transmission

Cian O Connor and Echo Beach are reserves.

Unusual to see an Irish team fielding 3 female riders (though they do deserve their places. I could think of many riders id sooner put inplace of Cameron though....:(
Hopefully Il be proved wrong, I know he gets on quite well on the cntinent - but most of the results hes been getting out there (where hes based on the continent) are not at Top level shows - most of them are equivilant of National Grand Prixs (which is obviously a good level) and there are a fair few Irish riders performing fairly consistently at International Grand Prixs.
 
Reserves will come from the others from the long-list i.e. Nick Skelton & Arko, Robert Smith & Ronaldo, and Will Funnell & Mondriaan.
 
Absolutely agree about the grading - some Grade As would never do a 1.40 or above.
In the dim distant days of my youth, it was easy for the general public to follow the sport because lots of national shows were televised on BBC and ITV (just 2 channels in those times) without actualy having to travel to shows. In he 60s, we used to get for example, Royal Windsor, Cardiff international (in the grounds of th castle), The Royal, Great Yorkshire, Butlins qualifiers for HOYS, British Timken (Olympic Trial) & Ascot (with a big money class sponsored by The News of the World), Harwood Hall etc. as well as Hickstead (4 meetings) on ITV and RIHS & HOYS on BBC.
 
Corlato made her international comeback at Estoril I think. Has been having a fence or 2 down except in the Medium class last Sunday so I was slightly surprised by her inclusion, though before her layoff I had expected her to be included, as she was looking really good on a consistent basis. The waythings are with horses it won't be a surprise if something goes wrong before Mannheim and Nick does end up in the team again. Great that Arko was back to form in Estoril, and it's certainly not fair to say that Nick has done badly with him in the major events. I can see the sense in not really wanting to use him on consecutive days yet. To me Locarno has never looked as good as he did in the run-up to the 2005 Europeans when they were so unfortumate that he became seriously il on the eve of the 1st class. Even so, he was an obvious choice for this year. It's still early days for Davi & Pilgrim, but they have looked impressive so far.
 
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