European way of feeding - I cant get my head around it

Stinkbomb

Stinkbomb

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I went to a horse show this weekend. There were some horses over from France and Belgium to do the show. They won everything and there is no doubt there horses looked fantastic. We stayed over for a few days and most of the horses were stabled at the Arena and we had a good chat to them about how they condition and train their horses. This is the bit i cant get my head around. Their show horses have NO grazing. They are kept in a show barn for 23 hours a day. About 8 hours of that they are tied up, no hay but access to water. The other hour they are lunged, round penned or put on a walker in two stints. They NEVER see hay or grass but get two huge bucket fulls of alfalfa, mix and beet twice a day. Thats it.

We looked in their stables at night and the horses were muzzled over night. they told us this was to stop them eating the shavings.

Now i dont give hay. Mine are out 24/7, yes on limited grazing but they have enough grass to pick on. They are fed two big feeds a day but like i said are free to graze the rest of the time.

This is how the Americans condition their show horses too. They all were famtastic animals and looked extreemly fit, but is it worth your horses health for a rosette?? I just could get my head around the way they do things. Any comments??

BTW im talking about miniature horses here :)
 
doesn't sound like a fab lifestyle to me... I don't show, but certainly wouldn't want my horses kept like that for such a reason. I think purposely restricting feed for 8hrs also sounds odd??
 
Sounds bloody awful and not the way I'd keep horses. It actually goes on in this country too, I have heard it's common among some of the old school welsh breeders - In fact the welsh inhand showing scene leaves me cold....
 
My god that literally sounds like hell! Need I say no more.

Would I do this, NO. OP I would go to your yard NOW and tell your two just how lucky they have it.. lol Seriously though to me, this is like trying to 'create' the perfect show horse, forgetting for a moment it's an actual animal - Like polishing an object and then putting it away without the sun to bleach it, fine it's an abject, but they are treating it like it's not a living animal with needs.

To be honest i know nothing about showing but the more I learn of the more horrified i am, and this has just added more to it! Jeese, what is coming of these poor horses.

They may 'look' good but not really. Surely they have a host of behaviour problems and gastric ulcers etc

What a horried existance for them.
 
Which is why so many of these European horses are complete and uttter nutcases good for competing and nothing else.

I was speaking to my vet the other day about my horse in Cyprus....he is 18 now still going strong, hacking out every day and still competing high end Dressage and winning. He was stunned he was still doing this at 18 as in Holland a lot horses only make it to about age 10 as by that time they are usually knackered, broken or bats and it is really unusual to have horses still being actively competed in the higher levels past age 15.

Scary stuff and the reason I moved my Dressage horse to a Western riding stal so he gets 24 hour turnout with a herd in the summer on lush grass paddocks, 8 hour turnout a day in sand paddocks in the winter....took him some getting used to but I have never seen him happier now.
 
Very sad indeed, but not horses to them though, just items they show, otherwise they wouldn't keep them like that, fair enough they do feed differently over there, no problems with that, but how they are kept, no excuse.

It's same with certain breeds of show dogs, Yorkshire Terriers for example, many breeders keep them cadged 24/7 stacked onto top of each other with hair rolled up, only come out to feed to put on grass to do the jobs.

Thats showing taken too far in my opinion and gives the rest of the folk/breeders a bad name.
 
I worked in Italy years ago. You have to bear in mind that it gets so hot that the grass scorches and doesn't grow in summer - so grazing is poor, and so is hay - hence the alfalfa and more hard feed. Ours were still turned out (yard was English run, and half English owners..) I went back to visit years later, and they had a german trainer. The horses were not turned out ever or allowed to hack out (which was a shame, as the steep terraces taught the event horses balance and how to think on their feet) The riding school clients were only allowed off the lunge (and given reins) when they could canter without stirrups. They had lovely deep seatrs, but looked bored to death. The competition horses went onto national team level (but again they had no life quality). The horse is something of a machine to them.
 
Honey, very much think the non turn out thing it is a Dutch and German thing!....I have been on yards in Holland where people do not want their horses turned out because they are too expensieve madness!

I lived in Greece for a few years and there horses were turned out on sand paddocks 24/7 with stables for wet weather and heat but never ever used (sutpid beasts) and fed all their calorific needs in hard feed and fed straw as fodder.

Horses only ever saw grass for a few months a year and then it was a treat you fed by hand in very very small amounts.

Have to say fittest, healthiest horses I have ever known! My ex racer only had vet out for jabs and farrier once every 8 weeks for a trim fior the 5 years I owned him.
 
QR The very fact that they had to be muzzled to stop them eating the shavings clearly shows how starved/bored/unhappy these poor animals are! I really don't care how good it makes them look!
 
Nothing really new in this as not so long ago in this country when the horse was king there were loads of horses in towns and cities that never had access to grazing lived on the meanest of diets and worked for years and years. Not recommending it as there were also hundreds of ill treated horses as well, we look at horses completely differently in this country now compared to 70years ago when they were worked 8 to 10 hour days, now they are more or less pets and have in general pretty easy lives.
 
Please don't tar all of us who live abroad with the same brush.
All the horses on our yard are turned out. Some admittedly more than others.
There are a mixture of horses on the yard from small ponies to very expensive competing dressage horses.
Holland is a very small country and land is a premium here so we don't have as much grazing land as the UK and this has to be managed very carefully. They are not able to go out in the winter as they would destroy what grazing we have for the summer but all are turned out regularly in one of the maneges and are walked out in hand, or ridden or lunged. They most certainly do not lack exercise. They are also fed 5/6 times a day in the winter. 2/3 times hard feed depending upon their requirements and 3 x a day with hay (by the YO) and also ad lib hay by their owners.
I try to turn out my 3 as long as possible while trying not to overgraze their fields yet they stand and wait from 5pm onwards to come in. If they are left too long they get stressed and start pacing backwards and forwards.
 
I live in France and people think I'm the weird one with my horses!! They have about 3 acres between the 2 of them - 1 16.1hh TB and 1 small pony - and have very large roomy stables. I turn them out every day in winter and in summer they don't come in at all unless it's very hot. They are fed a hard feed as well and the TB is rugged in winter ( local reponse to that was " is he ill"?). A lot of horses here are kept on tiny bits of land with no grazing on it at all, but of course I can only speak for my region and not the whole of France. People don't believe it when I tell them my big one is 19 years of age now. 13 is classed as ready for the knackerman! they also think it's strange i muck out every day, unlike my neighbour who keeps her 3 horses in her back garden ( including 1 stallion), and not even the whole of it. She's taped off a bit no bigger than 5 by 15 meters, not a lot for 3 horses all year round! no need to say not a blade of grass in sight, and nowhere to shelter from either the rain and snow or the blazing sun...
 
Jokadoka, I do so agree with your observations!
You could add, fly bonnets, fly masks,even horseshoes are hung"the wrong way round!", takes a bit of getting used to.
JC
 
My worry would be that although these horses look OK, they may well be riddled with gastric ulcers, or developing them.

This is, in my mind anyway, a totally unnatural way to keep a horse; horses have evolved as grazing animals with the fight or flight reaction, and keeping them in like this, without grazing or the ability to pick at feed, is unnatural bordering on cruel. Yes I have heard what's being said about land in Holland and places being at a premium, etc etc., but if that's the case then don't keep horses! Full stop! End of story! Have a budgie or a cat instead.
 
jokadoka said:
I live in France and people think I'm the weird one with my horses!! They have about 3 acres between the 2 of them - 1 16.1hh TB and 1 small pony - and have very large roomy stables. I turn them out every day in winter and in summer they don't come in at all unless it's very hot. They are fed a hard feed as well and the TB is rugged in winter ( local reponse to that was " is he ill"?). A lot of horses here are kept on tiny bits of land with no grazing on it at all, but of course I can only speak for my region and not the whole of France. People don't believe it when I tell them my big one is 19 years of age now. 13 is classed as ready for the knackerman! they also think it's strange i muck out every day, unlike my neighbour who keeps her 3 horses in her back garden ( including 1 stallion), and not even the whole of it. She's taped off a bit no bigger than 5 by 15 meters, not a lot for 3 horses all year round! no need to say not a blade of grass in sight, and nowhere to shelter from either the rain and snow or the blazing sun...
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Blimey, I thought those days were long gone. I am French but haven't lived there for the best part of 20 years.

I used to do a lot of show jumping as a teenager. The yard I rode out of had no turnout at all. In fact, to set up a riding school in France, you didn't need any land at all - just stabling, a yard and a manege/indoor school - this is the Paris subburbs I am talking about.

The horses were stabled all the time they weren't working - which was between 3 and 5 hours a day. They were fed hard feed twice a day and had a couple of slices of hay each day - very little hay in fact - and never saw grass. They very seldom went out hacking, mostly just schooled and jumped.

The new youngsters came in at just 3 in January/February, just backed and went on to the 3 year old showjumping circuit by the summer of that year. A twelve year old horse was good for retirement and in fact very many of them had broken down by that time.

I didn't know any better then and thought that was the way it was done. Living in England and a bit of age-imparted wisdom opened my eyes to a much better way of doing things - my horses are out 24/7 with a shelter unless there is a foot of snow on the ground and even then they still go out during the day - all happy, sane and most of all ***Touch wood*** I have not had a colic or even a sniffle in 10 years!!! Speaks for itself, I think :)
 
Stinkbomb said:
I went to a horse show this weekend. There were some horses over from France and Belgium to do the show. They won everything and there is no doubt there horses looked fantastic. We stayed over for a few days and most of the horses were stabled at the Arena and we had a good chat to them about how they condition and train their horses. This is the bit i cant get my head around. Their show horses have NO grazing. They are kept in a show barn for 23 hours a day. About 8 hours of that they are tied up, no hay but access to water. The other hour they are lunged, round penned or put on a walker in two stints. They NEVER see hay or grass but get two huge bucket fulls of alfalfa, mix and beet twice a day. Thats it.

We looked in their stables at night and the horses were muzzled over night. they told us this was to stop them eating the shavings.

Now i dont give hay. Mine are out 24/7, yes on limited grazing but they have enough grass to pick on. They are fed two big feeds a day but like i said are free to graze the rest of the time.

This is how the Americans condition their show horses too. They all were famtastic animals and looked extreemly fit, but is it worth your horses health for a rosette?? I just could get my head around the way they do things. Any comments??

BTW im talking about miniature horses here :)
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Feeding aside, the emotional and physical stress of being tied up for 8 hours and kept indoors 24/7 amounts to pure cruelty. :(
 
I wonder how many horses go to an early "grave" due to colic? Horses are, afterall, grazers and graze, as nature intended, around 18 hours a day. Not on lush pastures of course, but just wandering around picking at hedges and bits of grass.

My friends in France have a couple of Polish WB's who live out (Eastern France) all year round. However, when I last visited I noticed the vast amounts of ragwort in their field - did mention it, but they had been to see the lady at the Pharmacie and she had said it was OK!? My friends said that their horses ate it during the winter months...!!!!!
 
JCWHITE said:
Jokadoka, I do so agree with your observations!
You could add, fly bonnets, fly masks,even horseshoes are hung"the wrong way round!", takes a bit of getting used to.
JC
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I know!!! Are you "overhere" as well? I must say, apart from the rather "unusual" way they keep their horses, the locals have welcomed us with open arms, and have shown us nothing but kindness, they just can't get their heads around my way of keeping horses, just goes to show doesn't it...
 
GinnieRedwings said:
Blimey, I thought those days were long gone. I am French but haven't lived there for the best part of 20 years.

I used to do a lot of show jumping as a teenager. The yard I rode out of had no turnout at all. In fact, to set up a riding school in France, you didn't need any land at all - just stabling, a yard and a manege/indoor school - this is the Paris subburbs I am talking about.

The horses were stabled all the time they weren't working - which was between 3 and 5 hours a day. They were fed hard feed twice a day and had a couple of slices of hay each day - very little hay in fact - and never saw grass. They very seldom went out hacking, mostly just schooled and jumped.

The new youngsters came in at just 3 in January/February, just backed and went on to the 3 year old showjumping circuit by the summer of that year. A twelve year old horse was good for retirement and in fact very many of them had broken down by that time.

I didn't know any better then and thought that was the way it was done. Living in England and a bit of age-imparted wisdom opened my eyes to a much better way of doing things - my horses are out 24/7 with a shelter unless there is a foot of snow on the ground and even then they still go out during the day - all happy, sane and most of all ***Touch wood*** I have not had a colic or even a sniffle in 10 years!!! Speaks for itself, I think :)
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It certainly does!
To complicate it a bit more, I am actually Dutch-born, but haven't lived there for many years either, I moved with my english husband to the UK shortly after we were married. I do go back to visit family a lot tho and the Dutch are just as bad. The enormous amounts of horses on tiny bits of barren land is totally ridiculous. I suppose they are the lucky ones tho, as the rest of them are stabled 24/7!
As for here in Alsace, the lack of land isn't an issue, there is loads! I guess it's just the way people are used to doing things.
On the flip side, and i think it's a positive one, the way people do things here might not be right in our minds but it does confirm that we don't need absolutely EVERY available supplement/lotion/potion/feed supplement/spray or ointment to keep our horses healthy and happy. I found out the hard way( or rather my horses did ) as you just can't get that stuff over here, and they're a picture of health!
 
Depending upon their location, American show barns often follow this model, too, even if they have pastures. From what I can gather, in places like Virginia and Kentucky, turnout is plentiful and follows the UK model. But I need a place within an hour of NYC, and since resuming riding a year ago, I have struggled to find a facility within this distance that offers what I consider proper turnout ie not a half-acre sand paddock for a few hours a day. While I don't have my own horse, my intention was to half-lease, see if I like a place and take things from there.

Finally, quite by chance, I've found a place this week. It is farther away, but I figure it will be worth it. About 50 of their 100 acres is used for grazing. Unlike most places, herd turnout is an option. Private liveries are on 24/7 turnout or all-day turnout, and even the dozen or so lesson horses are out for between 6 and 8 hours a day (unheard of elsewhere).

Most recently I took a lesson at a place convenient to NYC. They have one grass pasture of about an acre and six sand paddocks. There must be upwards of 60 horses there, including some world-class dressage and jumping horses. My lesson horse was very capable, but defiant in many ways (stopped dead; mini rears; pinned his ears a lot). When I took him back to his stable, I noticed he'd chewed most of the wood off the frame. And he was one of the "lucky" ones, living in an English-style shed stable, so at least he could look out. Some of the horses the indoor barn, while kept in immaculate conditions, had no view at all. Suffice to say I will not be going back.
 
Chavhorse said:
Honey, very much think the non turn out thing it is a Dutch and German thing!....I have been on yards in Holland where people do not want their horses turned out because they are too expensieve madness!
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I really do feel sorry for comp horses in these countries, they are just not allowed to be horses - no turn-out, little (if any) physical contact with other horses, FGS, they're not even allowed to breed naturally! I would not surprise me if they started snatching them away from their mothers the minuet they're born!

This is one of the reasons I think continental breeds are dim - any horse with a brain just wouldn't tollerate that way of life.
 
marmalade76 said:
I really do feel sorry for comp horses in these countries, they are just not allowed to be horses - no turn-out, little (if any) physical contact with other horses, FGS, they're not even allowed to breed naturally! I would not surprise me if they started snatching them away from their mothers the minuet they're born!

This is one of the reasons I think continental breeds are dim - any horse with a brain just wouldn't tollerate that way of life.
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He wasn't a Continental breed, but the Appy I rode in that lesson made a big impression. He was a smart horse, with decent dressage and a nice Western jog/lope. I thought to myself, I bet he wouldn't do the whole planting/mini rear thing if he had time to be a horse. He was clearly a bit cheesed off with his lot.
 
GinnieRedwings said:
Blimey, I thought those days were long gone. I am French but haven't lived there for the best part of 20 years.

I used to do a lot of show jumping as a teenager. The yard I rode out of had no turnout at all. In fact, to set up a riding school in France, you didn't need any land at all - just stabling, a yard and a manege/indoor school - this is the Paris subburbs I am talking about.

The horses were stabled all the time they weren't working - which was between 3 and 5 hours a day. They were fed hard feed twice a day and had a couple of slices of hay each day - very little hay in fact - and never saw grass. They very seldom went out hacking, mostly just schooled and jumped.

The new youngsters came in at just 3 in January/February, just backed and went on to the 3 year old showjumping circuit by the summer of that year. A twelve year old horse was good for retirement and in fact very many of them had broken down by that time.

I didn't know any better then and thought that was the way it was done. Living in England and a bit of age-imparted wisdom opened my eyes to a much better way of doing things - my horses are out 24/7 with a shelter unless there is a foot of snow on the ground and even then they still go out during the day - all happy, sane and most of all ***Touch wood*** I have not had a colic or even a sniffle in 10 years!!! Speaks for itself, I think :)
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This is why I now have a horse with arthritis in both hocks, bu**ered hind suspensories and problems with her sacroiliac :( Take note, horse at 3/4/5 should not be jumping 1.10+ tracks!

Sorry bit of a mini rant.
 
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