euthanasia of DANGEROUS horse.....INSURANCE INFO NEEDED!!!

Hi..

I once had a pony that came to us classed as dangerous. It wasn't allowed up to the pc field.. ! Anyway, we effectively cured his ways and I show jumped him to a decent level won a couple of things at Hickstead. A friend had a similar incident and her horse would go beserk rear up and fall over on itself. It was absolutely screwy and had no self preservation. So I've seen it from both sides and if you feel its the safest option then thats a responsible decision. We all love our horses and none of us would take a decision like this lightly. It would be awful if he ended up int he wrong hands/doped and sold on or something.

If it was me I'd want to eliminate a physical problem and you may as well if you are insured?
 
trigger11 said:
Hello.
Please help answer the questions I have on this!

I have a horse (owned for 2years) who I think now is dangerous. I am a competent rider (competed to Intermediate BE, Med BD etc and bred my own comp horses) and I have really brought this horse on.

I think he must have had an 'experience' or been bullied/beaten as a youngster (before I had him). I bought him at 6 - he is now 8.

I did a season BE on him in 2010 at 100 level and he had some fab results (placings etc) and some rotational and other falls also (due to napping and lack of concentration).
I've sympathetically worked on him in terms of water, hacking etc, all of which were/are major issues for him and its all marginally improved, but not at the level Id expect after two years.

In warm up areas particularly he had huge problems with other horses coming towards him.
I went to dressage last week and between my Novice and Elem tests (when back in the warm up area) a horse trotted toward him up the long side and he freaked himself out so much about it - he threw himself on the floor with me on top!
This is when I decided that I think this has all got out of hand!

He acts as though the thing bugging him is driving him so crazy that when he actions it, he doesn't consider himself in the consequences let alone his rider. He just has to get away from whatever it is as fast as possible! (horrible and I really feel for him)

I am wondering where I stand with my insurance?
I think putting him to sleep would be kindest/safest for all involved.
He is insured for what I bought him for (which I still 100% owe to my dad, so I have to get this back).
He has a high level policy (for competing at this level) and is with a reputable company (AIMS I think).

What do you have to do in this situation? And do insurance companies pay out for euthanasia and loss of the horse (insured value) for these reasons???
What tests/vet recommendations need to be done and will the insurance company pay for this?

ANY HELP APPRECIATED!!!!
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I would send him to someone with experience working with difficult horses.
I can recommend Jason Webb who has re-trained many unrideable/unhandleable horses, many of whom are in 'last chance saloon'.
If Jason thinks he has a physical problem or is dangerous he will tell you soon enough.
 
I have a horse who was due to be PTS sleep as he was a danger to humans handling him due to an undiagnosed medical issue, nothing behavioural. When out in the field, he seemed happy as larry, but physical contact caused him pain and they could not work out why. He appeared to be pain free when turned away. With the winter coming we decided to PTS as he is such a poor doer than he was unlikely to survive winter with stabling, handling to rug him etc, and handling him put the person in danger as he would violently strike out.

My vet wrote to the insurance company and said that he was due to be PTS against BEVA guidelines as he was a danger to his handlers. He argued that too keep him alive would be a danger to the people who would be required to handle him and a liabilty claim would almost certainly occur.

The insurance company could chose to pay out his value or chose to go with BEVA guidelines and refuse, but almost certainly have a very high value claim when he injured someone!

Guess what they chose?

They agreed to go against all their own terms and conditions and pay out his value upon PTS and a post mortem would not be required (since it would do no good!)

Fortunately for us, some last minute experimental treatment based on nothing but a stab in the dark cured him and he is still with me today :)

Unfortunately for us, due to vets letter stating he was very dangerous he is now uninsurable!
 
zoon said:
Fortunately for us, some last minute experimental treatment based on nothing but a stab in the dark cured him and he is still with me today :)

Unfortunately for us, due to vets letter stating he was very dangerous he is now uninsurable!
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Can you tell us what the last minute experimental treatment was
 
Humble said:
Can you tell us what the last minute experimental treatment was
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Didn't want to hijack post and explain, but as the post seems to have stopped now, I will explain.

The word experimental was most definately the wrong choice of word. Possibly alternative would have been more appropriate. Or plain weird!

I had booked the date for PTS and had given myself a week. Someone else at my yard suggested I use her "back man". I explained to her that my horse could not be touched and asked if her back man had a death wish? She proceeded to explain that he was rather alternative, wouldn't need to touch the horse and was only £20 so why didn't I just ring him since my horse was a "dead man walking"

So gave him a ring and booked him to come down. The story behind him is this -
As a younger man he was a farrier and one day was out working in a storm and was struck by lightening. He was only lightly injured and was back to work pretty soon. No idea how he realised it, but soon discovered he was "magnetic" since the lightening incident. Not in the sense that spoons stuck to him, but he claims he can now manipulate tissue without physical contact. He explained this over the phone and I thought it was worth the £20 to see how crazy this guy actually was!

So the day comes, only a couple of days before my horse is going to be PTS. He goes into stable and stands at the opposite end from my horse who is merrily munching away at haybar looking as if nothing is wrong with him. I warn the man not to touch him and he says he doesn't need to, stands level with his shoulders, sticks his hands out with palms facing horse and does nothing! I stand there chuckling to myself for a moment at how crazy this man is and how crazy I am for getting him to come out until the hair on my horses shoulds stands up on end. Gobsmacked, I watch as he moves down the stable and the hair on my horse moves with him. The muscles under his hands (horse was about 6ft away) twitch violently and my horse seems a bit peed off to say the least - but he is not touching him. After a while of doing this over my horse, the mucles relax and seem to pulse rhythmically with the man's hands and horse relaxes.

The next day, horse was pretty much back to normal. The day he is due to be PTS, I explain the vet that he is back to normal - totally normal - and will will not require his services! Vet comes up anyway as he cannot believe it, and sure enough horse is not bothered by even the most firm manipulation. When I told vet the story, he said he had heard some things about this man, and it may be him or it may be coincidence, but it worked and my horse is still here today, 2 years on in full work.

Told this story when it first happened and lots of people accused me of being a troll etc or simply lying, but it is true. I am a total sceptic - hence why I got him out in the first place - for my amusement! But my horse is better now and I really done give 2 hoots why. Not sure I belive the lightening story, but there are plenty of things out there we humans don't understand and this little man is certainly one of them!
 
zoon said:
Didn't want to hijack post and explain, but as the post seems to have stopped now, I will explain.

The word experimental was most definately the wrong choice of word. Possibly alternative would have been more appropriate. Or plain weird!

I had booked the date for PTS and had given myself a week. Someone else at my yard suggested I use her "back man". I explained to her that my horse could not be touched and asked if her back man had a death wish? She proceeded to explain that he was rather alternative, wouldn't need to touch the horse and was only £20 so why didn't I just ring him since my horse was a "dead man walking"

So gave him a ring and booked him to come down. The story behind him is this -
As a younger man he was a farrier and one day was out working in a storm and was struck by lightening. He was only lightly injured and was back to work pretty soon. No idea how he realised it, but soon discovered he was "magnetic" since the lightening incident. Not in the sense that spoons stuck to him, but he claims he can now manipulate tissue without physical contact. He explained this over the phone and I thought it was worth the £20 to see how crazy this guy actually was!

So the day comes, only a couple of days before my horse is going to be PTS. He goes into stable and stands at the opposite end from my horse who is merrily munching away at haybar looking as if nothing is wrong with him. I warn the man not to touch him and he says he doesn't need to, stands level with his shoulders, sticks his hands out with palms facing horse and does nothing! I stand there chuckling to myself for a moment at how crazy this man is and how crazy I am for getting him to come out until the hair on my horses shoulds stands up on end. Gobsmacked, I watch as he moves down the stable and the hair on my horse moves with him. The muscles under his hands (horse was about 6ft away) twitch violently and my horse seems a bit peed off to say the least - but he is not touching him. After a while of doing this over my horse, the mucles relax and seem to pulse rhythmically with the man's hands and horse relaxes.

The next day, horse was pretty much back to normal. The day he is due to be PTS, I explain the vet that he is back to normal - totally normal - and will will not require his services! Vet comes up anyway as he cannot believe it, and sure enough horse is not bothered by even the most firm manipulation. When I told vet the story, he said he had heard some things about this man, and it may be him or it may be coincidence, but it worked and my horse is still here today, 2 years on in full work.

Told this story when it first happened and lots of people accused me of being a troll etc or simply lying, but it is true. I am a total sceptic - hence why I got him out in the first place - for my amusement! But my horse is better now and I really done give 2 hoots why. Not sure I belive the lightening story, but there are plenty of things out there we humans don't understand and this little man is certainly one of them!
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That's fascinating, I'm a total doubter but have been amazed by some alternative therapies which seem to do the trick
 
Have you explored all other options? Vet, dentist, physio, alternative therapy etc?
If so if you beileve he is dangerous I would discuss with your vet and see where to go from there. I have been in a similar situation and wouldn't wish it on anyone.
 
Zoon
I know this man (his name is John, otherwise known as magic man!), he is really hard to get hold of but I've seen him do some incredible things so I don't disbelieve your story for one second!
 
I hadn't heard of this one, but I have used a healer, with success. I was standing in the stable with my horse and wondering why I was wasting £30 when he didn't "do" anything other than hold his hands over her. And then she had a most amazing reaction, her eyes just rolled showing the whites, so there obviusly was something going on. This man has also saved several horses from PTS as a last resort and has had some success with getting good racehorses that have lost their form and getting them going again. I haven't heard much about him lately, but I know the local vets were willing to give him a try when they were baffled. He was able to pinpoint sources of pain and trouble, which were confirmed with scans and so on.
 
Glad other people have heard of John. He did my Dad's back too - he has a bad back and COPD and the back is bit better but he can also breate a bit easier as the muscle around his back and chest are now relaxed. Amazing little guy
 
ORANGEHORSE said:
I had a mare who was "funny" in a collecting ring and I think she must have been knocked over at one stage as she couldn't bear a strange horse anywhere near her and would doge out of the way and kick out. She also had a hatred of grey horses! Still, her oddness was containable and she didn't do anything to put the rider in danger. Yours sounds a much more difficult problem.
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I had exactly the same with my mare, even down to the hatred of grey horses!

OP, I do feel for you, I had a horse who I tried so hard with, kept excusing him because of a bad start in life but I eventually came to realise that he was plain dangerous to me, himself and others and pts was the kindest thing. He wasn't insured so I never had that problem to worry about.
 
Have you checked whether he is in pain? I am surprised you haven't even thought about it.. most horses are misunderstood he is trying to tell you something! Putting him down isn't the answer
 
zoon said:
Didn't want to hijack post and explain, but as the post seems to have stopped now, I will explain.

The word experimental was most definately the wrong choice of word. Possibly alternative would have been more appropriate. Or plain weird!

I had booked the date for PTS and had given myself a week. Someone else at my yard suggested I use her "back man". I explained to her that my horse could not be touched and asked if her back man had a death wish? She proceeded to explain that he was rather alternative, wouldn't need to touch the horse and was only £20 so why didn't I just ring him since my horse was a "dead man walking"

So gave him a ring and booked him to come down. The story behind him is this -
As a younger man he was a farrier and one day was out working in a storm and was struck by lightening. He was only lightly injured and was back to work pretty soon. No idea how he realised it, but soon discovered he was "magnetic" since the lightening incident. Not in the sense that spoons stuck to him, but he claims he can now manipulate tissue without physical contact. He explained this over the phone and I thought it was worth the £20 to see how crazy this guy actually was!

So the day comes, only a couple of days before my horse is going to be PTS. He goes into stable and stands at the opposite end from my horse who is merrily munching away at haybar looking as if nothing is wrong with him. I warn the man not to touch him and he says he doesn't need to, stands level with his shoulders, sticks his hands out with palms facing horse and does nothing! I stand there chuckling to myself for a moment at how crazy this man is and how crazy I am for getting him to come out until the hair on my horses shoulds stands up on end. Gobsmacked, I watch as he moves down the stable and the hair on my horse moves with him. The muscles under his hands (horse was about 6ft away) twitch violently and my horse seems a bit peed off to say the least - but he is not touching him. After a while of doing this over my horse, the mucles relax and seem to pulse rhythmically with the man's hands and horse relaxes.

The next day, horse was pretty much back to normal. The day he is due to be PTS, I explain the vet that he is back to normal - totally normal - and will will not require his services! Vet comes up anyway as he cannot believe it, and sure enough horse is not bothered by even the most firm manipulation. When I told vet the story, he said he had heard some things about this man, and it may be him or it may be coincidence, but it worked and my horse is still here today, 2 years on in full work.

Told this story when it first happened and lots of people accused me of being a troll etc or simply lying, but it is true. I am a total sceptic - hence why I got him out in the first place - for my amusement! But my horse is better now and I really done give 2 hoots why. Not sure I belive the lightening story, but there are plenty of things out there we humans don't understand and this little man is certainly one of them!
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Is this John by any chance? amazing man, use him for my horses and you can see it working but people don't like anything different so quick to slate it.
 
oh to add john is only difficult to get hold of because he has 2 phones but only ever has one on at a time so it depends which number you have and what phone he has on at the time lmao!
 
Ooh I like the sound of the 'magic man'! Maybe worth a shot for this horse? In respect of the original insurance question though - no you cannot claim for death if the horse is PTS due to behavioural issues. The only way you could claim for this is if the behavioural issues where due to something else (ie a brain tumour). I don't think your horse is particularly unusual though - i know a friend whose previous eventer was quite similar - fine one minute and then would just flip out and throw itself all over the place.

Maybe these horses just aren't meant for competition work or where they feel their personal space is being invaded by other horses. I know my pony cannot stand being in close proximity of other horses and he used to be very difficult in a warm up arena as he would panic if a horse came towards him or fast behind him. Not to the same extent as yours but I basically had to just make sure I was very aware of where others were and to avoid a claustrophobic type situation. It sounds like a sort of panic attack in some ways.
 
Hey
I can kind of see where your coming from. I have a horse who react excessively violent of unsure with other horse to the point of being very dangerous. Last show he landed on my leg and hit me against a lorry. I stopped taking to competitions completely and still he isn't a safe horse day to day rideing on his on! But still I could never get rid of him because of his character. I think mostly his problem, is he was a late starter, claustraphobia and confidence. Because he was perfect natured as a foal till I sent him to be broke. I now do all my own breaking. I don't think will pay out what you need. But what is his temperment like outside of shows? Is there a possibilty of honestly selling on to a non competitive home?
 
Is there any chance of Magic John's tel no? I would love him to look at my boy (see KS/tendon/ligament injury in veterinary). I have him permanently on Danilon at the moment - also anyone know how to geth hold of Roy Coles. Think similar to John ! Thanks
 
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