EVA Matting and Laminitis... any thoughts?!

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ktw_240

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I just wondered if anyone else has experience with this, as any thoughts and ideas would be so helpful!

My little Welsh X pony who is 14 years old has suffered from lamintis for years and years, for reasons other than food! I thought I was doing the right thing by installing thick EVA mats in his box, thinking they would be kind on his feet and warm in the winter when he suffers from the cold. I installed them in the summer, and he hasnt really been in his stable much, as he is normally 100% out at grass, given careful management.

Recently, probably due to the hard ground and other "issues" he has, he looked a little off colour, so I immediatley began my normal routine of box rest for several days... But, unusually, he is getting worse, not better. The only thing that has changed is the matting and I am concerned it isnt giving him the correct support, does anyone think it could be TOO soft under his bedding?

Vet and farrier also at a bit if a loss, and I am very concerned. He normally spends a couple of days in, before gradually increasing his time out in suitable grounds. Please don't anyone shoot me down for saying he only spends a couple of days in before being allowed out again etc etc, its a very long history and gradually we've found the best way of managing him to suit him! And trust me, we've explored every avenue we know of, and others that didnt exist!!

So grateful for any experience or thoughts, he means the world to me, I foaled him and he has always been with me, so I really need any extra help available for my overgrown pet!
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Huge thank you's in advance!
 
HI
I can't imagine that the mats would make any difference especially as it sounds like he has other bedding aswell.
All I can think is that his 'issues' are getting worse and that his recouperation is going to take longer than it normally would.
I have to say though, and I'm not shooting you down, but a laminitic, whatever the cause, needs longer in box rest than a couple of days to recover amd you may find that he is never really recovering properly and therefore it keeps recurring.
 
Without meaning to sound negative, maybe this time he is worse than previous attacks ? I have a friend who has had laminitis problems with several ponies. 2 years ago she lost two ponies. 1 was only age 7 and ultimately the vet said she had v early cushings which had made her get laminitis, they had not expected this diagnosis. The other was an older pony, with no previous history and he was not even tubby, they thought he had a mild attack, but it just got worse.

Maybe your vet needs to x-ray the pony this time in case he is worse than you suspect.

Good luck.
 
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HI
I can't imagine that the mats would make any difference especially as it sounds like he has other bedding aswell.
All I can think is that his 'issues' are getting worse and that his recouperation is going to take longer than it normally would.
I have to say though, and I'm not shooting you down, but a laminitic, whatever the cause, needs longer in box rest than a couple of days to recover amd you may find that he is never really recovering properly and therefore it keeps recurring.

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No, I completely understand what you mean about the timescales, you are totally correct, and I promise you I understand this is not a normal way of dealing with it...
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When it first began over ten years ago, he spent literally months on strict box rest, and was at the point of being PTS, because we could find the cause as such, or stabilise him very well. We sought advice from everywhere, and many many vets were involved.. but because I am soft on him, I wanted him to have the chance of one or two hours or days with his chums before we did the deed.... Being so soft back then I couldnt bear the thought of him put down having spent months in solitary confinement... the date was set and I turned him out in a small soft turnout area... by the time the vet was due to arrive the difference in him was so great we put it off, and, almost eleven years later he is still here, still naughty and still sound as a pound for over ten months of the year! He has a spell once a year normally, usually around Christmas time but sometimes earlier, and after days (in fairness sometimes weeks, depending on his signs) he is normally out in a wood chip turnout before being re-integrated to his field. We know we stand a possibility of leaving the feet a little weak, but as he is completely retired from any work, the aim is to leave him sound and comfortable enough to lead a good life out with his chums, when he is unable to live like this he will be PTS in fairness to him... I just really hope that time is not now!
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He does have a full bed over tha mats, but the bed does feel spongy when you walk on it, and I was concerned that instead of the bed pushing up and supporting his feet underneath, the mats were letting his feet settle in an unlevel position, ie, heels down, or toes down....??!!
 
I can say without much doubt that without my EVA mats my laminitic hunter would not be with us. He got toxic laminitis 3 years ago when he was posioned and have been dealing with the fall out ever since.

The EVA actually supports the foot whereas rubber / concrete doesn't. You still need bedding but nothing like in the quantities you would without (ie as long as the bed is to the door and there is enough shavings to fill the feet you don't need a foot of bedding in.

If you haven't x-rayed i would suggest you do. It actually sounds like this could well be mechanical laminitis (if indeed you have a very streamlined horse that is not carrying any excess weight at all.) However the issue is, regardless of how the original attack was caused you now have a horse predisposed to laminitis. My hunter wears a grazing muzzle all day when he is turned out, the fluctuations in the grass can be astounding on an hour by hour basis, especially at this time of year.

We also don't manage my horse according to the old fashioned box rest et al. (please note this horse is under veterinary supervision - not all horses have "normal" issues) The blood flow in the feet is compromised during an attack and that is what causes the damage. By turning out the horse (on bare ground) you can ancourage the blood flow through movement. I also use an equissage hand unit on his feet every day and the difference in the feet has been phenomenal.

However, he wear boots and pads over the stones to the field (then boots off) this is generally fine except when the ground has firmed up and as the hoof wall is not strong enough the soles are increasingly sensitive.

I think there is most likely something going on within the feet / blood that is the problem rather than the EVA mats. The balance of the feet can often be very different internally than what the farrier sees and this can cause all sorts of issues. If he has any separation of the white line etc movement in the pedal bone, fluid pockets in the laminae, thin soles (through lack of cirruclation) then all these things can make things flare up.

Hope he is looking better soon, laminitis is a very cruel disease.
 
as long as you have a thick bed of something that can compact into the foot then the mats should make no difference. unfortunately he may be worse because of cumulative damage. Its probably time to re x ray if he hasnt been xrayed recently
 
I totally agree that not all horses are the same and understand your situation usually works for you and your lad.
I agree that maybe its time for some xrays as there may be something else going on.

As for exercise being helpful? according to the laminitis clinic:
Don't make or allow the horse to walk. Exercise was thought to be beneficial by increasing the blood flow to the foot. There is already a tremendous increase in the blood flow to the foot but there is little or no perfusion of the dermal laminae. No amount of exercise will improve this situation and may well mechanically tear the remaining laminae thereby worsening the founder.
 
The laminitis clinic gives the current UK belief as to what is the best form of treatment for laminitis. The issue is in many other parts of the world the last thing they do is box rest (this is in relation to many other injuries not just laminitis)

I would agree not to "make" the horse walk, I am lucky in that my horse self regulates, if he is too sore to come out of his box he doesn't come out, but if he is comforatble he is generally letting himself out! The issue is that yes there is tremendous blood flow to the feet however, it can be argued that this is the blood that contains the toxins and the sooner they are removed from the feet the better.

Trust me we carried out to the letter months of laminitis trust approved management after the first attack (8 months in the box in total) however, subsequent attacks have shown that the feet improve much quicker doing it our way (he was x-rayed every 3 weeks after his last attack - caused by extreme cold pre-equissage) we were constantly monitoring him and he is still improving feet wise now.

I am not for one minute suggesting that people should throw caution to the wind and ignore everything that their vet / laminitis trust say. HOWEVER, the treatment regime has been drawn up using what was deemed "NORMAL". within this normal range that the evidence was drawn fromto reach these conclusions of what was and wasn't right there were outliers. I have one of those outliers (who is funnily enough being used as a veterianry paper all of his own next year (and caused huge arguments between the laminitis trust and the Beaufort labs during the orginal attack!)

We had nothing to lose, conventional treatment did not work and it is looking more and more positive the further down the line we get. The only way treatments evolve is through experimentation. I am happy for my horse to guinea pig this (non-invasive) treatment as quite frankly there was no-where else to go. I have literally dozens of x-rays charting his progress through this.... it is not purely based on heresay etc. and have no qualms about what we are doing. My horse makes his feelings well and truly known and ultimately it is to him I listen!
 
Please don't think I am trying to tell everyone that the rules are hard and fast. There will always be exeptions and as you say experiments need to be made. I too would allow this in your situation.
I guess we have to jiggle a little bit of what we read, with what our vets tell us with what our horses are telling us
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Good luck to all struggling with laminitis
 
It may just be that this attack is a bit more painful than previous ones. My lad was recently diagnosed with mechanical laminitis in one front hoof - all the professionals swore blind it was an abscess so we wasted 3 weeks waiting for this to burst when it was actually laminitis with 12% sideways rotation!
My lad has a field stable so has been on box rest in there - it is a mobile stable so on the ground and I have mats in there with the usual thick bedding of shavings. He is doing very well with this and his foot was improving in so far as the digital pulse could not be found by the vet...but he got very depressed and I have been struggling to get him to eat anything, he started dropping weight at 10kg per week and in the end the vet came back out and told me to section off a tiny area outside his stable where there is no grass so he could go out and stimulate him to eat more before we got further complications. So he potters about on clay earth during the day and is in at night on his matting and shavings...he is still improving on this regime and is eating better now too...he is more like his normal self and happier...which will help him get better in the foot area too.
So to cut a long story short perhaps your horse is a bit fed up and this is hampering his recovery...? I assume you are doing all the usual in terms of feeding soaked hay, low cal, low sugar stuff?
It is so hard with laminitis, you try to get them well and other complications occur and you are left confused and worried that you are doing something else wrong! I hope your horse starts to improve soon, good luck but I am sure the mats cannot be making things worse.
 
Avenger - thank you so much for your information, its positive to know that other people out there are forced away from the 'non- conventional' route with positive results! I am sorry for the situation you are in, and yes, I have enough X-rays to wallpaper the downstairs of my house with (almost ready to begin upstairs...). I have, like you followed the conventional route to the absolute letter, after five months we were ready to PTS. 95% of the time I have a happy chappy, full of his completely normal (cheeky) behaviour. We are not entirely sure how it all came about, as he suffered a rapid onset of hypocalcemia... still for an apparently unknown reason (and every test available was undertaken at the time). When we got him up from this attack, it was immediately apparent that he had laminitis as a result... and the rest is now history.

He has a grazing muzzle a lot of the time, and is certainly better while being ABLE (not forced) to move. Like your horse, he will choose not to leave his box if he doesnt think so, when he is sound and happy he will knock you flat to get out, when he is having an 'episode' you can leave the door open and he will come to the very edge for a look and stay there. We have caused huge dilemmas and conflict between vets, and I can thoroughly understand this, but the fact remains in a large hairy monstrosity
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that still charges around with his chums very happily, years after the main event.

Laminitis seems to carry such a stigma, the first conclusion people often jump to is that it is neglect on the owners part to manage grass / weight / feet . etc etc. I do appreciate why this is, but in my (and seemingly other's) cases you actually end up becoming part of a long term experiment to throw out the main rule book and try and find an alternative way through.

I am glad you also use EVA long term, I thought they would ba a great idea... a friend has just come up woth the idea of removing half of them temporarily and observing if he chooses to move off of them... so I am off to try that now!

Avenger - I am not sure how old your chap is, but we've been honing our routine for over ten years now, and my gelding would be absolutely fit to work for most of the year if I chose to... So good health to your boy and long may it continue!
 
<font color="blue"> The laminitis clinic... </font> (and on)

What a truly fascinating post! I can see where you are coming from and wish all ponies could be afforded the luxury of an individual recovery plan. With something so complex as the laminitis 'syndrome' - I think it is a syndrome - and looking at the changes in treatment and management, a one size fits all approach isn't always the best one.

And it can, as has been pointed out, vary in severity and resolution in each animal with each attack. I have a friend whose pony definitely did used to suffer a touch of laminitis and two days in, with bute and she was right again. Got the rings and everything, just never full-blown laminitis
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