Evaluating a show jumper

[Ladyfresha1]

I only asked about credentials because of what I have been told. I paid an entry fee, I have the right to know who judged my horse! Once again, sorry to have distracted from the discussion. Also if this has been covered in a previous thread that I haven't written. Maybe the BEF should publish a list of judges and their credentials, at least then there will be no rumours. Again sorry if the BEF already do this and I have missed it. On the whole I think everyone involved in the series is doing a great job so I am certainly not slating the judges or anyone else involved!

It is a great way for breeders and people interested in breeding or buying to see what is out there and what is desirable. Also a great oppurtunity to get young horses out and about. Everyone is extremely friendly and approachable as well.

Where is Ken? He has been quiet on the forum in general lately!

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
I only asked about credentials because of what I have been told.

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Hopefully by now you will have corrected the misconceptions of the person who passed on this baseless gossip to you so that they don't do it again

 

[almorton]

i think before people start making judgements on what is 'good' or 'bad' for young horses, and what we should or shouldnt be doing with them, some of the new dutch research by Harold Brommer, Netherlands might make good reading. it proves we must expose our youngstock to the exercise they will be doing as adults, or pay the price at a later date. im not saying we should be jumping them round courses as foals, that would be foolish (or would it??!!!) but adaptation to workloads form an important part of development, training and growing. perhaps thats why the dutch/swedes/french/germans loosejump youngsters as they do, because they are well informed and have weighed up the pros and cons. horses werent made to stand still in stables. so i dont think asking young horses to jump a few fences at the futurities is going to break them. unless, of course, you also score a 1 or a 2 for conformation! then, you may have a problem

 

[CrazyMare]

Having managed to teach a few horses to loose jump in just one or two sessions, I'm not overly concerned about loose jumping mine as a 3 year old, a total of four times over the period of the 3 year old year is not a heavy work load IMHO.

Ladyfresha - the evaluators names are at the end of each catalouge, and I'm sure were published elsewhere beforehand.

 

[volatis]

I agree it is quality not quantity in teaching a young horse to loose jump. We do very few sessions but every time we are careful to work on technique and understanding. I never put anything up over a metre at home, but last year at the Trakehner breed show, with German expert judges (specialists in loose jumping), the filly was put over some very decent sized fences, despite never having jumped anything half as big at home. The basic work we did at home, meant she could cope when asked for something more testing (and that fact she is talented helped obviously)

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
i think before people start making judgements on what is 'good' or 'bad' for young horses, and what we should or shouldnt be doing with them, some of the new dutch research by Harold Brommer, Netherlands might make good reading. it proves we must expose our youngstock to the exercise they will be doing as adults, or pay the price at a later date. )

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of points here:

1 I rather suspect that that this research is actually rather more a proof that the way in which we raise young horses in this country (ie outside running around loose in fields most of the year rather than yarded in conrete-floored creeps as in an increasing number of major horse farms in mainland Europe) is the correct way to encourage the development of sound althletic horses. galloping around fields, jumping over muddy pools and small branches etc is normal equine pastime and is -- after all -- what they are physiologically (and psychologically) designed to do. Sadly, this they cannot do in yarded horse farms and the number of OCD chips (even in babies), stable vices etc that result are what reduces the competitive life of such animals. Thankfuly we do not have that sort of problem here so it is not an issue -- and in fact it is actually the natural way they are raised is one of the main marketing points going for British-bred horses of every breed.

2 Because of the above (we have all seen foals jump things in fields) I *personally* have absolutely no problem about assessing the jump in them by putting them through a very short lane of one crossed poleabout 9 ins high, and those of us who were at the WBFSH General Assembly last year saw an impressive demonstration of how Roelof do this every year to assess the natural jump, attitude and athleticism of the foals they breed. However, and it is a big however, they are very skilled at it, they do it only once, they do not prepare for it and it is not part of any national programme of assessment. IOW, there is no pressure and it is not viewed (even mistakenly) as a competition. Much as I (and other evaluators) might be impressed by what Roelof do we could not include it in the Futurity because of the present (incorrect) perception in the equestrian industry here that it is wrong/cruel/unnatural and the rather more worrying (but probably correct) reason that it would immediately become a welfare issue becuase people would want to practice the foal jumping too much beforehand or even use it to select the foals they wish to present.

As I have said before in this thread as far as the BEf is concerned the welfare of the horse is paramount and a field-raised horse has plenty of opportunity to develop its own natural athleticism -- and show its natural jump -- from an early age. Sadly this is not the situation in many countries and it is this -- as a major cause of long-term unsoundness -- that the findings of this particular research actually highlights.

 

[koeffee]

i made simular coments on another forum like this and many on here were on there, i got slated for even suggesting the europeans pruduced there horse better for evaluations, and for jumping a 3yro loose.at the end of the day, some horses jump loose but never show much under saddle, some are rubbish loose and show amazing technic under saddle, then you get the ones that do both, not all horses are world beaters, but i feel showjump breeders/riders (profesionals)would be better than show judges, but thats my opinion so dont slate me for it.

 

[KenRehill]

Where is Ken? He has been quiet on the forum in general lately!

Sorry, I've been in England, the Olympics are on, and I'm at St Lo for the interregionals, where Dallas van Overis is qualifying for the Finals at Fontainbleau, and I've got 112 pages of translations to do for the second FENCES sale.

I have a view on this, but it's going to be the same as any other European. 3' fences are going to show you that the horse can jump a 3' fence. You've all seen many, many times, horses who knock over a 2' fence and then kick ass over a 5' fence.

I didn't wait to see the free jumping at Arena UK, because I had to get to Addington, but personally I'd always prefer to see horses over a 5' fence. I don't think you have to do this every day of it's life, but they should be ready for the test. I don't agree with "preparation", but I also don't agree with "comfortable" small fences which prove little or nothing.

Showjumping is an objective sport (did you leave the rails up, did you get in the time?), thus all parts of the development of the young horse should be objective.

The European system is a total shake down from start to finish, constantly selecting and discarding. On another thread, it was commented that these "discards" have historically found their way to the UK. But, regardless of the country or it's system, the results are all that matters.

If I wanted to set up an oil company, I'd copy BP. Thus, if I wanted to breed something special, I'd copy the best, and if I were setting up a young horse system, I'd copy the Germans or the French or the Dutch.

There's always resistance to change in the UK, it's genetic and cultural, and it's uncomfortable. But change is necessary, and those leaders in the market and administrative side, should push forward. You cannot please all the people all the time, and some will say "ohhhh I don't want bubbles jumping a five foot fence", well that's natural selection IMHO.

Next year around 250 foals will hit the ground in the UK as a result of my work, I want to see them correctly tested at 3YO, otherwise my clients are wasting their time breeding in the first place.

 

[TarrSteps]

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I don't agree with "preparation"

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Since it was me that used this phrase I will clarify . . .

By "properly prepared" I mean a horses should come to a public free jumping having at least a passing knowledge of the procedure (which can be done, as volatis pointed out, over small fences once or twice) and the right attitude. This does NOT mean practising and practising, it means doing a bit of homework so the horse and handler are familiar with the process and what works best for that particular horse.

But it also goes to the handlers. If the handlers know what they're up to it is quite possible to get a "first timer" through I've seen many people get thoroughly over excited or be overly tentative (perhaps in fear of censure) in a public situation, which can set up a bad situation for the horse.

Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding, as it was explained to me, is that there are at least two limitations on the Futurity that might not apply in Europe. . . . One, many people do not have access to the proper facilities to loose jump a horse at home so the assumption has to be most come completely unfamiliar with the task. Two, only the connections that come with the horse are allowed to handle (including "pushing" in the chute) the horse, not anyone associated with the Futurity. So people presenting their horses face having to get their own help, which will likely not, for the average owner, be people with much experience.

If this is true, these are severely limiting factors to what people can ask of the horses presented. It conveys quite an advantage on bigger operations with more resources, which is not exactly what the Futurity is supposed to be testing.

(As repeatedly pointed out, this is not a competition so the "life's not fair" argument carries less weight.) Ideal or not, you have to work with what you're given and perhaps in this case the infrastructure is simply not going to allow for a German or Dutch-type approach . . . ?

As to horses getting the input they require in their developmental windows, I asked how people felt about this in the CR forum and everyone seemed (obviously) to be in favour of young horses out in groups, in large, undulating areas, exposed to life and the elements. I guess the question is is this really many young horse's reality these days? I realise I live in a limited part of the world and am used to a very different situation but I keep meeting very young horses living in very small, flat fields with only mature companions, stabled much of the time, and with a great deal of attention paid to keeping them "safe". Yes, it's much better than "yarding" but it's still not ideal for optimum physical development. Of course it may just be the only option for many "single foal" owners. But it does beg the question should people then be paying attention to "making up" the sort of normal physical stresses that would occur in a more natural situation if the goal is to produce the best end results? I am not suggesting working baby horses like adults - I hate to see people longing yearlings etc. - just that it does beg the question, are horses that do not stretch themselves physically as youngsters at a disadvantage when they grow up? Studies with other mammals suggest so . . .

 

[ASM2]

I was taught to ride in Germany by an ex Germany cavalry major. He also bred Holsteiners and was one of the German sj team trainers at the time. I used to watch him loose jumping youngsters. A couple of goes only was all it took in terms of "preparation". These youngsters jumped high and were of course very naturally talented BUT I remember him saying very dismissively no more strain on their joints than high jinx playing in the field. Many of these horses went on to jump internationally and for years.

My own sj pony went through the rounds loose jumping as a youngster and as a 30 yr old boy is now troubled with joint problems. I have no doubt however that his legs come from years of jumping JA tracks with me on board on parched summer showgrounds.

My experience of course

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
I was taught to ride in Germany by an ex Germany cavalry major. He also bred Holsteiners and was one of the German sj team trainers at the time. I used to watch him loose jumping youngsters. A couple of goes only was all it took in terms of "preparation". These youngsters jumped high and were of course very naturally talented BUT I remember him saying very dismissively no more strain on their joints than high jinx playing in the field. Many of these horses went on to jump internationally and for years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this point, 'OVER' preparation on under developed joints, tendons and ligaments IS detrimental to a young horses future development, that is fact. There have been horses mentioned who have been given the top score of 10 for their loose jumping performances, horses who are bred in the "purple`to begin with, would they have still been top ridden showjumpers without the use of a jumping lane, I personally think they would have been, given the correct preparation under saddle and the right rider. Loose jumping on the continent is use so the breeders know which of their horses to run on or which will get the highest price in the sales ring. I have no problem with this, but I feel too much emphasis is placed on how high a horse loose jumps, which IMO can and often is detrimental to the horses development.

I have no problem with the GENTLE preparation of young horses be it down a loose jumping lane or on the lunge, it is important not to lock them way until time for them to be backed as tendons and ligaments do need to be stretched while developing. My black stallion was not backed until he was 6, he spent all of his young life out playing in the field, at 13 he has never had a day off work, his joints, tendons and ligaments have never been over pressed at a young age, but I do get tightness from him around the girth area. As a young horse his muscles developed in that area with no pressure from a girth or saddle so they have developed without allowing for the additional pressures when ridden. It is manageable, but something that I have to be very aware of and address on a regular basis.

There are thousands of horses loose jumped on the continent each year (KenRehill has mentioned that he has seen tens of thousands), we only ever hear about the top bunch, horses who were from the day they were born outstanding, I would like to see the statistics of horses that have loose jumped to a high standard (I have personally seen several hundred stunning loose jumpers that have disappeared into the wood work once under saddle) and what are they doing now!!!!! If some of the comments on this thread are anything to go by, then hundreds of Olympic horses are being produced each year from the loose jumping lanes of the continent, I don't see them, neither do selectors who often have to scrape the barrels just to get a nations cup team together.

Can an elephant paint, yes it can and its work has been known to sell for thousands and thousands of pounds. But a real artist can put together a work of art on any subject you care to mention, they can work under pressure and can adapt their work to the changing moods, lighting and angles. That is the difference between a painter and an artist.

In the competitive world of international showjumping horses have to participate with riders on their backs, this is where the difference between loose jumpers and showjumpers is evaluated.

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, off soap box now as my arm is hurting (shouldn't actually be typing at all ATM) but this ill-informed muttering about the credibility of the evaluators is beginning to irritate me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ciss, all this would have been avoided if the BEF had put the list of judges up with their credentials, because this has been a topic on a few forums now. It would not take much to type up a document, convert to PDF file and put it on the Futurity website.

I know for the Scottish Futurity all the questions have been "who's the vet?" and " who are the evaluaters?" and the names that people dont know, the next question to follow is "so who is that and what is their background experience?"....

So a very very simple solution to avoid these un-necessary comments on public forums is to put up a list of all judges within your system including the experience they have. Perhaps also to say what the minimum criteria is for the judges and also, how they are all selected.

Just my own thoughts on it...

 

[pinktiger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think before people start making judgements on what is 'good' or 'bad' for young horses, and what we should or shouldnt be doing with them, some of the new dutch research by Harold Brommer, Netherlands might make good reading. it proves we must expose our youngstock to the exercise they will be doing as adults, or pay the price at a later date. )

[/ QUOTE ]

we keep banging on about the importance of following examples abroad, they breed generally on a larger scale!! for a few that do make it as jumpers there are alot that are not considered any good!! i dont know the exact ratio but i would imagine for every 'one' they deem super star, there is probably 20 that they dont!

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the answer is more and more in the proof of the pudding, especially as the Berlin foal made such a high price last week and at yesterday's KWPN inspection a horse that was given v high marks at the Futurity and subsequently pretty welll slandered by some posters here when it did not find favour with one of the less successful books in the WBFSH, was described as just the sort of jumper we need today, given a ster pref for conformation / paces and told that it will have a ster pref for performance when it achieves 3 double clears at 1,30 (it is already jumping double clears 1.10/1.20 now at 4 years old). That is how accurate our system is already -- although doubtless it could be improved even more -- but higher and higher is not what it is all about and my argument is that is now up to successful Futurity breeders, as well as the BEF, to explain why that is the case to prospective customers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont mean to be controversial........but how do you know the Futurity meant any difference to this foal achieving a top price?? I think it was more to do with the breeding skills of Millfield, and the fact they were selling a foal by one of the best showjumping stallions in the world, and out of a very good dam line. One cannot detract from the fact that this foal did well in the Futurity, but would it have got any lessor a price if it had not done well........I am perhaps dubious????

On the KWPN front, and I know you probably just mis-worded it...

[ QUOTE ]
given a ster pref for conformation / paces

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming you mean it was awarded the the "Ster" predicate. "pref" means "preferent" in the KWPN and is something awarded to a mare that has produced three "Ster" horses.

[ QUOTE ]
that it will have a ster pref for performance when it achieves 3 double clears at 1,30

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With the KWPN, if a horse jumps 3 double clears at 1.30m then it is awarded the "Sport Spring" predicate.

Sorry but its just with you saying "ster pref"....well that means that the horse in question was awarded with "Ster" and then had three offspring also with "Ster"....therefore giving it the credentials of "Ster Pref"....

 

[Anastasia]

Pinktiger.....what you have said above is very true. But I guess for all the big studbooks their insurance of producing the best horses in the world is done in quantity.....although they do have very good quality also. Some of these organisations are producing thousands of foals each year, so of course they are going to have a greater ability to produce the Olympic horse of the future, but it is also known that barring the "flukes" of the horse world, the best horses now are coming more and more out of top stallions AND mare lines.

Just out of curiosity and also regarding something that Ciss mentioned. Can I ask....how many of the previous top awarded futurity youngsters are doing well in their chosen disciplines now??

I am assuming the BEF would keep this information, because that is what will help to sell the evaluations, as something of great importance, if you ask me. For instance if you said that the top four showjumping horses of "X" year is now doing "X" in sport and/or breeding. As that would then mean that the evaluations selected these young horses, and now they are doing well in a discipline, thus completing the loop....so to speak.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont mean to be controversial........but how do you know the Futurity meant any difference to this foal achieving a top price?? I think it was more to do with the breeding skills of Millfield, and the fact they were selling a foal by one of the best showjumping stallions in the world, and out of a very good dam line. One cannot detract from the fact that this foal did well in the Futurity, but would it have got any lessor a price if it had not done well........I am perhaps dubious????

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not say that the Futuirty result of the Berlin foal was the reason -- or even one of the reasons -- that it got the high price that it did at the acution, I just menat to emphasise that for all the criticism the evaluators seem to get at times they have been consistently able to identify where the talent lies in ways that are pretty soon re-affirmed by others, hence my mention of the impressive KWPN result of the horse I cited too

[ QUOTE ]
On the KWPN front, and I know you probably just mis-worded it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, sorry been typing up (still mostly one-handedly) too many mare grading systems and terminologies for the book. It was a ster pred as you said and he will get a Sport Spring pred soon (and this only a few months after SHBGB said he was a novicey jumper with no canter (he got 75 with KWPN) that was back at the knee. Where are these people coming from? If I was looking for guidance on how to select a jumper/jumping stallion I think I would prefer to go to the top WBFSH showjumping studbook in preference to one with not just low but no ranking (ie no registered horse in the top 1000 showjumpers in the world) but then what do I know?

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but its just with you saying "ster pref"....well that means that the horse in question was awarded with "Ster" and then had three offspring also with "Ster"....therefore giving it the credentials of "Ster Pref"....

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think his dam is on the edge of becoming a ster pref mare herself actually (although as her owner says she is 23 and may well not live to see it ) as a result of all this too, so that is good fro British breeding too.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity and also regarding something that Ciss mentioned. Can I ask....how many of the previous top awarded futurity youngsters are doing well in their chosen disciplines now??

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the foals and youngstock that have been through the system are a litte young for records to be fed back yet and as so many change hands etc until people learn that the UELN is the only way that an animal can be uniquely identified and the disciplines base their registration numbers on that co-ordinating the results through (say) NED is pretty difficult ATM. Also, the BEF does ask breeders /owners to keep it informed of the successes of the animals that have 'been through the system' once they sell them they often loose touch with them and the riders and trainers are usually too busy / too indifferent to breeding to carry on letting anyone know what is happening.

[ QUOTE ]
I am assuming the BEF would keep this information, because that is what will help to sell the evaluations, as something of great importance, if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Former 4 year old finalists and champions include Up With The Lark, Cool Mountain, Deanes San Ciro Hit, Millie On Aire and Caretino Glory amongst others, but I know that Jan is working on a much fuller list for PR / marketing purposes. However, as she is very pressed for time (even with her new assistant) if anyone on the forum would like to help with this task I am sure she would be very keen to get you involved.

 

[pinktiger]

[ QUOTE ]

Next year around 250 foals will hit the ground in the UK as a result of my work, I want to see them correctly tested at 3YO, otherwise my clients are wasting their time breeding in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]


out of those 250 foals not every single one is going to make it as a jumper, not every horse is going to be at its best a 3yrs old, would be a shame to eliminate those horses that will prove themselves later on!! not every horse that hits those heights as a 3yold is going even with the best production to make a top showjumper! I think we only get a very small glimpse of what might be, and mayb we need (in the uk) to stop producing just out of 'named stallions' and take into importance the dam as equalimo
tbh im being very soft and what i hate the thought of is mass produced/bred horses that dont make the grade and then shunned to one side, if we could REALLY REALLY refine breeding to include the dam and dam line alot more seriously, . Ofcourse i will get slated and you cant ignore the fact that the big money is usually spent on the biggest jumper (high jump competition) seems old fashioned to me i think the BEF futurity have taken a more modern aproach!!!imo

 

[TarrSteps]

There seems, from an outsider's perspective, to be some confusion between people wanting to see horses identified as having elite show jumping potential asked to jump SLIGHTLY higher - 1.10 or there abouts - on one occasion and a call to jump 3 year olds repeatedly over 1.40+.

I don't see the two are even close in terms of goals or potential for stress on the horse.

The only original point was is 3' a sufficient height to ask 3 year olds (remember, already put forward as sj types) to jump in order to separate the "will likely be good" from the "might be great". No one is saying "higher is better" just that is there a concern average horses might look fine over a small fence but significantly less so over a slightly larger one. I was traditionally taught that 3'6" is roughly the cut off point for high calibre horses - hence the great drop off in competition numbers traditionally at that height. (It's also, therefore the height where mistakes are magnified because most horses can't "make up" past that.) Now, I'll agree if anything that height cut off seems to have risen as we've bred a better class of horse but still, erring on safety and all that.

Of course the selectors and/or the owners could - and should - pull any horse at any point if it looked to be struggling at all. Then obviously ON THAT DAY the horse is at that point and no further. But it would also allow a little scope (sorry

) for a more talented horse to show it's stuff. Having one relatively low height they have to stop at does preclude that OPTION.

I'm sure there will be a rolling of eyes at this point but it's interesting to watch North American hunters, that are completely judged on form, jump the various sizes of fences. Many, many horses jump 3' in good form, far fewer move up to 3'6" and still jump well, even fewer ever contest 4' (although to be fair there are lots of factors involved there). Since these horses are considered to "do this on their own" it might actually be a relevant point.

I think we do have to be really, really careful not to settle for an attrition based system. For practical reasons, even leaving aside the ethics. NO talented horse should slip through the cracks, ideally. But the leading breeders of jumping horses DO seem to follow attrition systems . . . it's a bit of a conundrum.

The problem with competition horses is talent is only part of it - so much has to do with development. But a horse will never jump better than it's mechanics and brain allow it too.

Btw, as to the examples of a horse or two, my old event horse raced at 2 and 3, stayed sound but slow, went straight into eventing with an originally not very good program, then went up the levels quickly. He did have a small amount of time off (weeks) for an injury but otherwise went from eventing to jumping to dressage to hacking and is still sound at 25. However, I would never dream of saying because of him racing at 2 is a good idea! (Although it is attrition based . . .) He was, however, well conformed, a middling size, mentally easy on himself, and by a sire, it turned out that produced far more than his allotment of successful sport horses, including 3 at FEI levels. So what carried more weight? We'll never know. So we cover all the bases as best we can and try not to go too far off one way or the other.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Next year around 250 foals will hit the ground in the UK as a result of my work, I want to see them correctly tested at 3YO, otherwise my clients are wasting their time breeding in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well hpefully by 2012 you will have been able to train the breeers of those foals so that they are able to produce them down a jumping lane in an unstressful way that shows their outstanding talent and if that is the case then we will (literally ) be able to raise the bar.

OTOH some of them are being bred as eventers so the production of their loose jumping technique has to be different (even for Britt's babies) so do make sure that you don;t overlook this when stressing the importance the height they reach has to you.

 

[Partoow]

Just a little aside note because this is rather over done now but, as seen at H of E today only 1 horse that came forward was produced well enough to actually come down the lane with any confidence and until there is an improvement in the production/ handling then a call for higher , higher is totally fool hardy inwelfare terms.
By the end of the 3yr olds all of the horses that had been through the grid had been given a good fair experience that gave us an idea of where and how they would develope in their chosen path of jumping or eventing.
Regardless of height it is possible to see so many attributes, the take off, the speed through the air the use of the back , the lift of the fore arm , the tidyness/ neatness and the use and speed of the hind leg being just a basic idea of what can be seen.
The jumping lane is only a part of the assesment so the 'status' does not hinge only on this factor, it is not a free jumping qualification or a grading both of which are different.
The jumping is also determined in height by the BEF which is in accordance with the BSJA that 3yr olds in this instance should be jumping 1m . If there was an accident or a horse was damaged by his/ her experiences in the evaluation i am sure the evaluators would be blamed.There is a duty of care , and until the handling and production is improved then this will be how the jumping will be dealt with.
Quite frankly, it is a learning process there are discussions alll the time as to how it can or cant be improved no one ever said it was set in stone but there has to be a consistency this year not changed half way through.

 

[volatis]

I think Tarr steps has totally grasped what I was trying to say. I am not, I repeat not, asking for massive fences in a crowd pleasing high jump competition. I was just querying whether a 1m high gentle ascending oxer is high enough. As she says a little bigger and you reach that cut off point where a horse with a nice technique but not enough scope, is shown up, with out frigthening it or over stressing it.


What is interesting was that at H of E yesterday, the fences were slightly bigger (from the start) and the oxer was a proper square oxer , not a cross pole with a back rail. IMHO it was a better test of the horse's scope and techique, even just being that few holes higher and squarer. You dont need big fences for assessment, I just felt that at Arena UK, they were not quite big enough to show the full picture between a nice horse and a superb horse.

 

[The Voice]

Just skipping throught the posts.

From experience, as 2/3/4 year olds all you can do is evaluate movement and to a degree technique and ability over a loose jump and clear rounds. As a 5/6 year old you discover how they learn and improve under saddle and this is when a good producer knows if it is worth persuing with. It is not really until a 7/8 year old that you really see if they have a talent when you start asking the questions and this is where I would like to see better championship classes over 1.40-1.45m especially starting next year, so for 2012 there may be 10/11 yo old horses ready. The one thing nobody can judge especially in a young horse is what is between the ears which makes a good horse a very good horse.

Also a lot of competition people are now not so worried about breaking horses in early and then producing them for 6/7 year old classes.

The thing is not to get hung up about evaluators and results but to go along enjoy it and learn from it.