Eventers - are you riding differently xc now?

kerilli

kerilli

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Just sitting here wondering really, in light of all that's been happening here and across the pond recently.
must admit, after reading the Jim Wofford article (at http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/eventing/wofford_eventing_lives_051408/
if you haven't read it yet... can't recommend highly enough. excellent stuff.)

i am definitely warming up differently. not a conscious decision, i've only just realised that i am.
i now trot once to the xc warm-up fence, don't try to see a distance at all, just let the horse do it himself, then i come again once or twice in canter, just the same, without trying to see a stride. not fast, not flat, with legs on but not pushing for a stride, in a very "ball's in your court, boyo" sort of way. i guess it's to make up for me seeing strides in the sj (or trying to!) and maybe being a bit bossy there.
i'm sure it's helped, my 2 have jumped round better, with no striding disagreements, since i started doing this. haven't had any wild flyers either.
i think once i get out on the course i ride the same as before, but the horses definitely think for themselves a bit more from the start because i've made it so clear that mummy's handed over responsibility to them!
would be very interested to hear other peoples' views, etc. ta.
 
I ride very much like that, have never been one to see a stride XC, but I try to slow Dext down quite a bit before the fence and keep my hand and leg really there on him otherwise he says "oh god where has she gone!" but I do not look for a stride I just sit and wait for it to come to me, much like SJing but at a quicker pace
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Not sure if thats right or wrong but its how Dexter likes to be ridden so I will continue to do that!

Im lucky that he is very neat infront anyway just drags the hind a little sometimes, perfect for XC
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I dont think i have changed really. I have always liked my boy to jump out of his rhythmn which is why i sometimes get time penalties! I have to ride very positively into every fence cos i if i give him an inch he will take a mile! I only compete at intro ( about to have a go at a pre novice!!) but i still think its important to get the quality rather than speed. My boy is naturally very careful and is very good at finding a fifth leg but i try to not put him in the situation where he needs it too often. I think a lot of the younger riders need to stop worrying about the speed and concentrate on the rhythmn they ride in.
I really think it depends on your horse - like i say, if i sat still and did nothing my boy would stop or run out cos hes a cheeky sod!! Saying that i never tell him where to take off at a XC jump.
 
Ive always warmed Goddy up like that as it helps his confidence?! Start with having a canter sess of collecting/extending a bit, then bring back to trot over the first fence then canter
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Do similar things in the SJing warm up though, and let him jump out of trot to start with and then work on the canter
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All my xc schooling is done on a loose rein when they are babies just let them pick and find their way. Warming up not much changes. I am just not good enough to fiddle with the stride so if it feels fine I go with it. XC I work on the principle if in doubt kick more!
 
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oh dear, maybe it's just me who used to dominate the striding all the time. right, lesson learnt!

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We really should have a tongue in cheek smiley for when I say -

you've been watching Pippa too much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I havent changed but thats probably because I've never got into the habit of looking for a stride xc- I realised a few years ago that it all goes much more smoothly if you dont!
On occaisions into a big fence I can feel myself trying to panic and look but I manage to talk myself out of it in time!!
 
Nothing's changed for me - horse knows far better than me XC so all I ever do is tell him what speed to go and the line he's on - his legs are his problem, I can't pick them up for him! And I am not good enough to dictate strides so he has to sort that out too. Works fine for us, we rarely fault XC, though I will hack round if we're not in with a shot at a place.
 
I have always had the attitude that you present the horse to the fence and it is there job to jump it i.e. i try not to interefere. At home I insist they are independent jumping grids etc and they have to learn to pick there legas up etc. I sometimes can be told off for expecting the horse to do it but hey if we did everything for them they'd lose respect surely?
 
The biggest thing I have learnt this year is not to chase over the fence..... which I think is typical of those just starting out over XC fences and inexperience and lack of confidence can result in over riding or chasing.

Let the fence come to you, present horse straight and in correct pace, horse has to jump it and if you present them right you have more than enough of a chance that they will jump.
 
Just picked up this thread! I guess I am a bit more pro-active than some others in getting to the right place although the main thing is always keeping a forward balanced rythmn. But I do hope to see my spot at most fences, although I remind myself it's important not to start hooking if I haven't seen it!! At the moment I am riding PN/N horses so they should be able to sort themselves out by and large, but I've ridden at higher levels before (and hope to again) and when the fences get big it's good to be able to see roughly where you are going to arrive, and do something about it if it looks way out, be it kick harder like Lec or just hold the last couple of strides together a bit. I do all the same grid work etc at home to teach them coordination, but out on a course I try to work with them. Matt Ryan says you should do all the ground work to give them quick reactions and the right responses if they end up in a spot of bother (and we all do that sometimes ; ) but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help them when we can. IMO some of the famous people who advocate doing nothing (LG, Harry Meade) firstly are possible not aware of how much they instinctively see a stride because they are so talented they take it for granted, and secondly preach the "get a good canter and line then do nothing" approach to us lesser mortals because that is undoubtedly far better than the "get involved and end up hooking, firing and/or missing because you can't see a spot" alternative... Personally I do think there is probably a balance where we try and help where we can but still make sure the horse can think for itself when it has to. As far as warm-up is concerned (oh yes, that's where we started isn't it K?!
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) your point is an interesting one - not sure I have consciously changed anything but will be more aware now and come back to you!! Actually, tried the "sit and over to you" approach warming up at Charlton Park on an ignorant PN last year and he wore the practice fence round his neck!! Nearly didn't have the courage to come round and do the same thing again, in fact have to confess I did it in trot - trying SO hard not to pull on the reins... However, TBF he did go round the actual course beautifully so perhaps it did its job!! Andrew Nicholson talks about letting horses make mistakes at straightforward fences on courses to sharpen them up for a difficult one that follows (eg a gate) but I don't have the guts, I HATE hitting fences
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Not sure if any of the above is of any interest!! Cookies etc for anyone whe gets this far
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xx
 
Tabledancer, yes, all that makes sense. i agree about some of the top trainers not realising how much they do instinctively/automatically. the worst teacher is one with a god-given eye for a stride, i've found.
i still look for a stride, but i don't panic if i can't see one now i guess... but this is only pn. at the higher levels you have to be able to see a distance, otherwise if you miss horribly a big fence ends up huge, or a huge fence ends up almost unjumpable, imho. i don't think "kick and point" is safe at anything above intermediate, and only at that level on a very capable scopey horse!
 
Ok, just read the article itself
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Actually, I might get shot down in flames here esp by Kerrilli with whom I nearly always agree
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but I feel it is a bit confused. Lots of it I agree with but my main problem is when he says (in the context of SJ haights) that most event horses are reaching the limit of their scope with a 4'x5' oxer so we have to start seeing spots which works fine going slow in a SJ arena but not XC etc. But hold on, what about the big square fences XC? Tables, footbridges etc etc which are the same dimensions or even wider? Why did we not have to look for spots at them for exactly the same reason (which is what I felt anyway, see my earlier post) Also, not sure about the collection thing: can't see why the physical act of collecting a horse removes its initiative and the accidents haven't so far been to the very best dressage proponents ie those with marks in the 30s who are achieving true collection. Sorry - just debating this so please no-one get hot under the collar with me!
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Agree with this (phew!!
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) A lot depends on what you are sitting on - I had a wonderful horse who was so scopey I felt he could have jumped a house from trot, well nearly... A great feeling partly because you don't worry so much about putting them wrong and partly because it gives you so many options... Quite difficult to go back to sitting on normal horses even lovely ones when you have had one like that - I had to put him down exactly a year ago after several years of on/off injury problems and it broke my heart
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Still, onwards and upwards!
 
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Just sitting here wondering really, in light of all that's been happening here and across the pond recently.
must admit, after reading the Jim Wofford article (at http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/eventing/wofford_eventing_lives_051408/
if you haven't read it yet... can't recommend highly enough. excellent stuff.)


Haven't read the whole thing but that's how we always warm up for SJ and XC, always get the horse to sort itself out.
i am definitely warming up differently. not a conscious decision, i've only just realised that i am.
i now trot once to the xc warm-up fence, don't try to see a distance at all, just let the horse do it himself, then i come again once or twice in canter, just the same, without trying to see a stride. not fast, not flat, with legs on but not pushing for a stride, in a very "ball's in your court, boyo" sort of way. i guess it's to make up for me seeing strides in the sj (or trying to!) and maybe being a bit bossy there.
i'm sure it's helped, my 2 have jumped round better, with no striding disagreements, since i started doing this. haven't had any wild flyers either.
i think once i get out on the course i ride the same as before, but the horses definitely think for themselves a bit more from the start because i've made it so clear that mummy's handed over responsibility to them!
would be very interested to hear other peoples' views, etc. ta.

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Agree with this (phew!!
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) A lot depends on what you are sitting on - I had a wonderful horse who was so scopey I felt he could have jumped a house from trot, well nearly... A great feeling partly because you don't worry so much about putting them wrong and partly because it gives you so many options... Quite difficult to go back to sitting on normal horses even lovely ones when you have had one like that - I had to put him down exactly a year ago after several years of on/off injury problems and it broke my heart
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Still, onwards and upwards!

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yes, precisely... my best ever mare had mega-scope, she was described by Vere Phillipps (who i bought her from) as "a freak", and even though i missed her quite horrifically to a few intermediate fences and quite a few advanced fences over the years, she had the power and cleverness to get us out of trouble no matter what.
my next decent eventer was a home-bred with no scope at all.. now, she did make me worry, because i knew she had nothing left in the tank if i fluffed up the striding. 2* was her limit, and i don't think she had an inch left of scope, bless her.

i can see what you mean about the previous point... maybe he's saying you need to be accurate in sj because for e.g. the back poles matter, but leave it a bit more to the horse xc because as long as it's experienced, it doesn't matter if it touches the big ones a little... that doesn't make much sense but i know what i mean!
i think collection becomes micro-managing the horse, certainly tempi-changes require the horse to be totally submissive.
the fact that probably the best dressage-event rider in the world (Bettina Hoy) now no longer seems to be able to ride a horse round a 4* (she certainly could back in the Watermill Stream days, when she was 2nd at Burghley iirc and won the Euros!) seems to me to be quite telling... her horses surrender utterly to her in the dressage, but don't seem to be able to help her out an inch xc, and she is no mean jockey, and has a very good eye for a stride.
 
Interesting about Bettina as her Sj is also excellent which would add up with seeing a good stride. Her biggest problem seems to be dropping them on XC and I always think that is rider confidence.
 
Interesting point re Bettina's decline in form - could just be age though
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(spoken by someone with the same problem!!) Or lack of horsepower, although she has a gorgeous PN going N horse called Franco now - anyone seen him? V Smart...
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I think the issue with bettina does seem to be rider confidence at xc these days. I was talking to her & Andrew at belmont and I was utterly amazed at seeing her warming up for xc and being very nervous about riding round the intro. I spent some time chatting to andrew about it and he talked me through her round. It was a really interesting conversation and it was really useful to see that even the pro's lack confidence sometimes!!
 
You're probably right, just being flippant really... To be fair performance-wise she nailed good rounds at both Aachen WEG (despite some long routes) and last year's Europeans didn't she? Don't think we can really write her off yet
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I talked to Andrew too and Betina was nervous about cantering down a drop so she trotted. I was amazed.

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But what if she knew the horse isn't 100% honest at drops or whatever? I agree that Bettina is not someone I'd want to emulate XC (I'd kill for her dressage and SJing though!) but there's no reason to be surprised if they are nervous XC, after all pros have to ride pretty much anything sent to them to pay the bills, doesn't mean it's any blooming good!
 
I think we are all being brainwashed into thinking you shouldn't look for a stride XC.
I've seen increasing numbers of people simply sit and kick into fixed fences and hope the horse can get it's undercarriage out of the way in time and am confident they are doing it to educate the horse to learn it's trade (because it's trendy). As often as not they are really lucky to get away with it, sometimes the clever ones will manage to put in a stop. Can't see how that's teaching the horses anything tbh.

Also think in fact that if you can't see a stride and get the horse to the right place to take off over 2ft 9 perhaps you shouldn't move up to bigger fences....

There is this bizarre rumour that 20 years ago horses were safer as they were able to think for themselves. They were no cleverer than horses today (with the exception of warmbloods) difference is that trainers were drilling the riders in seeing a stride and being able to moderate the stride in front of the fence to help the horse out.

Fortunately I was drilled in this in the 70s & 80s by some serious XC & SJ trainers, they certainly would have been horrified if I had just thrown my horse at a fence without thinking about where it was going to take off....

The riders who have come through now as trainers and are telling their pupils not to try and see a stride do so because they have no idea how natural it is for them to do so. I think that's why so few amateurs cannot get on with ex professionals horses, the animal has had a partner for x years putting it in a good place to take off & providing guidance XC, then some numpty gets on board who has been drilled to never try and see a stride and horse is bu**ered....
 
Crikey, by your reckoning I should never be allowed near a raised pole again, my ability to see a stride is pretty much non-existent as far as I can tell
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interesting points, siennamum, but i think there's a massive difference between "just throwing a horse at a fence" and "sitting in behind while it makes up its mind" (a phrase i made up from things Lucinda Green said to me).
i don't think it's really necessary to look for a stride at Intro and PN, any decent horse should be able to pop them as long as they're presented well enough, but for bigger fences it becomes vital. as i said earlier, the worst trainers are the ones with a god-given eye for a stride, who really cannot see or understand the problems some of us lesser mortals have!
i still look for a stride to everything xc, but if it's not there i don't panic and throw the horse (as i'm afraid i used to do on occasion, even to huge fences), i just wait, make it clear to the horse that it's over to him or her, and let them decide. i suppose what i'm doing in the warm-up is reminding them that mummy can be a muppet up there and not see a stride occasionally, so i'm waking their brain up to the idea again!
i do think the modern emphasis on trying to keep the canter the same all the way to the fence (and then the distance is always there), rather than on seeing the stride and riding the last 3 strides to it, can only be a good thing.
 
BUT, I think people ARE interpreting modern training methods as just throwing a horse over. I've seen it at both events this year and at higher levels on videos etc. If a horse is wrong to a PN fence and it's on a long galloping stride, then it can be very wrong. the canter you are talking about is fine if it's a short and balanced canter, but people rarely ride XC at that pace these days, these they gallop as fast as they can to make the time.
Sitting and waiting for a stride is one thing, and it's what I try and do, but why is there a reluctance to ride positively for a stride.
I think there's a problem with not placing much importance on these things at Intro & PN as surely the purpose of these events is to get the basics right so that you can move up to more challenging courses when you can do basic things like see a stride from 5 out and shorten or lengthen accordingly....

If the modern emphasis on not seeing a stride and riding the last 3 is a good thing then why are so many people having crashing falls because their horses are completely wrong at often plain fences.....

When you learn to see a stride all the time I think you do 2 things.
1. you and the horse learn how to recover when you get it wrong,
2. you create a horse which naturally also judges the distance and 'sees a stride'. If you leave it to the horse to put in a half stride or go for a long one at it's own discretion then you are creating a horse which will see a stride inconsistently.
 
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