Eventing Stallion Statistics

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nomis

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As a previous post has been removed I still think it is useful to show the following statistics for those people with eventing mares looking to breed in 2009.

WBFSH Stallion Rankings 2008

In late autumn each year, the WBFSH Stallion Rankings are produced in cooperation with the FEI.

Based on the results of their offspring, each stallion is ranked in the WBFSH Stallion Ranking. This year's stallion rankings are based on all the horses in the FEI/WBFSH Horse Rankings.

Please see below for the 2008 Top Eventing Sires in the World:


1 Cavalier Royale 1097
2 Heraldik xx 725
3 Cruising 559
4 Master MP 556
4 Highland King 513
6 Jumbo 406
7 Irish Enough 400
8 Brilliant Invador 359
9 Rock King 353
10 Pallas Digion 335
11 Jensens Man 327
12 Stan the Man xx 325
13 Hand in Glove 308
14 Amerigo Vespucci xx 301
15 Miners Lamp 280
16 Uri du Longbost 280
17 Fleetwater Opposition 268
18 Condrieu xx 251
19 Fines 240
20 Parkmore Night 239
21 Koyuna Majestic Supreme 236
22 Puissance 232
23 Rustic Amber 225
24 Pintado Desperado 224
25 Eighty Eight Keys xx 222
26 Faram 222
27 Stanford 221
28 Voltaire 214
29 Veloce de Favi 213
30 Tarnik 211


According to the WBFSH Final Year Rankings in 2008 for competing horses - click here for list the highest stallion ranked at 64 is the ISH Stallion called "Brave Heart".

Apparently the highest competing eventing stallion standing in the UK is "Chilli Morning" (ranked 249) unless "Brave Heart" above is also within the British Isles.
 
Interesting however the breeding of a lot of the horses says 'unknown' and even I know who some of them are by. So unless they bother to get all of the sires of the horses it's not a realistic evaluation.
 
also, some on that list only have 1 result (e.g. Miners Lamp has 280 points, all won by Miners Frolic, Irish Enough only has 400 points from Kirby Park Irish Hallmark) whereas others have lots of good offspring but with fewer points each... I'd rather take a mare to a stallion that has thrown lots of good horses.
 
One that people should seriously look at who won't be on the list yet as he is only young (6) and I saw him out at Novice level is Wish Upon a Star.

He is absolutely stunning in the flesh, did a superb dressage test, was incredibly generous in the SJ when he was missed rather horrendously to the first part of a related distance and left both parts up, and was really bold XC.

This is his record: http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=74431&section=000100010002
 
I totally agree with Spottedcat and Kerilli, it is going to take a young stallion a v long time to get onto that list, there are some v smart performing stallions that have good breeding and will/may in the case of the 5yo produce v gd stock but you are talking much reduced stud fee. I personally would like to use a stallion that i can see perform and also talk to the rider.
 
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also, some on that list only have 1 result (e.g. Miners Lamp has 280 points, all won by Miners Frolic, Irish Enough only has 400 points from Kirby Park Irish Hallmark) whereas others have lots of good offspring but with fewer points each... I'd rather take a mare to a stallion that has thrown lots of good horses.

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kerilli, I think that Tom Reed has made this point in one of his articles .... and agree that most mare owners would want that further information as to whether the points represented significant achievements for a number of offspring or outstanding achievements on the part of one or two offspring .... and again you come back to the quality of the mare .... one day we will be able to get all this data clearly available to us to help us make our choices! (A long time in the future, I suspect ... )

Wish Upon A Star is a great favourite of a friend of mine, who really rates him - and another youngster who is beginning to clock up the successful progeny also (see previous thread) is Future Illusion. So we certainly have some great young stallions coming through at very reasonable rates at the moment. My current biggest frustration is how many lovely stallions are based in Ireland, any one of which I would be interested in using on my mare - Watermill Swatch, Lakeshore Road, Capitalist (stunning, this chap, and a pedigree to die for!), Vechta (sire of many of the Billy horses .... ) - but none of them available AI in the UK. I feel like bombarding the IHB with demands for them to do something about this!
 
Can we clarify that there is a big difference between 'sucessful progeny' meaning BEF futurity/show winners and eventing winners.
I know sometimes you have to take a gamble on a young horse but, particularly when that horse's sire is still available at stud and is producing the goods, I wander why people get so excited about what is actually a fairly ordinary (at the moment) young stallion.

Dressage horses are easy- if it moves then it will be sucessful. Sjers are easy- if they jump high enough than they will be sucessful. Eventers are much more tricky- they have to be talented AND want to really do it. Thats hard to prove in a young stallion and there is a definite shortage of 4* stallions available. It's easy enough to breed a 1/2* horse but darned difficult to breed a 4* horse!!
 
Agree that Wish upon a Star and Future Illusion are stallions to watch, and should both be exciting ones to follow [and their progeny].
 
I would have thought the BE statistics were more accurate guide as they list the 6 and 7 year olds by which stallion

If they were to carry this data through so that you had a list of 7,8,9 yo etc it could give a clearer indication of how a stallions progeny is likely to progress

Some stallions progeny may do really well as 6 and 7 yo and then fall off the map

There is no easy answer but as much info as possible is always helpful, it must be remembered the right stallion is only one piece of the jigsaw !
 
As young relatively unproven stallions go, I rate Wish Upon a Star and Future Illusion as two of the best up and coming boys around in the eventing scene.

Those stallion stats are, to me, very interesting in that a certain stallion that has been much publicised of late as being a one of the top event sires around is strangely missing....
 
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Those stallion stats are, to me, very interesting in that a certain stallion that has been much publicised of late as being a one of the top event sires around is strangely missing....

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He's not missing, he's just 650-somethingth on that list!
 
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Those stallion stats are, to me, very interesting in that a certain stallion that has been much publicised of late as being a one of the top event sires around is strangely missing....

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He's not missing, he's just 650-somethingth on that list!

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But if it is Grafenstolz you are talking about (and I presume it is) on the Breeding News for Sport Horses list of Eventing stallions competing at FEI in 2008 he is actully 16th which puts him above any other stallion based in the UK including Chilli Morning (20th), Jigilo II (22nd) and Take it 2 The Limit (37th) who are the only others in that category that feature in the list. In fact across the disciplines for all competing stallions there are only 2 others that have a higher ranking -- Arko in showjumping at 2nd, and Lancet in dressage at 4th in that discipline. Peppermill is 19th in showjumping and Utah van Erpekon is 22nd (Cilla must be pleased) and as no other UK-based stallions appear in any of the lists, so that is no mean feat.

I'm sorry guys, but I know you are obsessed with with knocking this stallion and his owner but to be effective you have to be correct and I'm afraid you are way off beam here.
 
So how come the yawning difference between those lists, Ciss?

Are you saying that Breeding News have got it right- and the WBFSH (which I, not knowing my way through this minefield, would have thought to be the authority), is wrong?

The real problem here is that we cannot get even remotely RELIABLE and ACCURATE information about this stallion from its owner; no wonder that there is a backlash of disbelief when the horse is presented as World Champion, etc. yet has not actually done all that much compared to much less hyped horses worldwide.
 
But Ciss, the list you refer to is presumably, stallions only that are competing, not a sires list.
And how come your list ranks them differently to the FEI eventers rankings (which seems to have Chilli Morning some way above Grafenstolz - 279 vs 659). I'm nbot having a big, just wondering how that publications own ranking system differs from the FEI version in how it is compiled
 
I've just checked WBFSH website and the most recent list seems to be 2008, correct as listed above, also interesting to see Darco is still No 1 for jumping.
 
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But Ciss, the list you refer to is presumably, stallions only that are competing, not a sires list.

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Well obviously it is. It would be very odd to expect a 10 year old stallion (ie one barely old enogh to be doing 4 -star himself) to feature prominently on a sire of eventers list. You have to compare like with like and in peer /age group terms (as they do in Germany as you must be aware) and *based on the period 1 Oct 2007 to 30 Sept 2008* (the official FEI year ends in September and all Annual listings are calculated in that time frame) those are the listings as extracted from FEI and WBFSH sources by what is now the publication that is officially endorsed by the WBFSH as its main disseminator of breeding statistics as Horse International lost that status last year.

The driving force behind Breeding News for Sport Horses, Xavier Leibrecht was also awarded a special Honorary membership of the WBFSH to great acclaim at the WBFSH General Assembly last year (I know I was there and saw it :-)) and I can assure you they would not do that if they had even the slightest doubt that there was any sort of mismatch (and certainly not a yawning gap!) between the full lists and the stallion lists extracted by Xav and his team.

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And how come your list ranks them differently to the FEI eventers rankings (which seems to have Chilli Morning some way above Grafenstolz - 279 vs 659). I'm nbot having a big, just wondering how that publications own ranking system differs from the FEI version in how it is compiled

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Probably becuase the list that is being quoted in that case is the rolling list and therefore not the final cummulative one for 2009, which obviously cannot be drawn up yet.

As everone seems to be moaning about the lack of hard facts and data on this subject can I suggest that you all to http://www.breedingnews.com/ click on Subscribe to Breeding News and Buy the Stallion Guide and then you will have all the necessary facts at your finger tips.

Just a suggestion!
 
I think I'd like a look inside before I lash out what? 70+ euros? on the double subscription.

Is this really all the information the stallion guide gives? No pedigrees, etc.?

STALLIONS:

Life Number
Year of birth
Sire
Dam
Dam sire
Colour
Breeder
Birth studbook
Studbook(s) of approval
Contact(s)
BREEDERS AND STUDS:

Name
Addresses
Phone and fax numbers
Email
Website
STATISTICS

Sires of sires
Sires of dams
Leading breeders by number of approved stallions

A useful tool, I would think, if you were intending to breed (catalogue, buy, sell, etc.) a lot of horses each year, but I think you would need a lot of other sources of information- studbooks etc.? to make the stallion guide a real guide rather than a telephone directory. Or am I wrong?

No idea of how useful the magazine is because the site doesn't give you a taster of what is inside. What statistics are given (I take it they are in the magazine?) and how much are they broken down, over and above what is freely published?
Are actual results published? There seems to be no information in the stallion directory, presumably because of sheer size.

I am genuinely interested, though I'm not sure this publication is cost effective for the small breeder.

So Ciss, the G figures you quote are (now effectively outdated) figures for his peer group- and it would therefore indeed be wrong and extremely misleading to use such a limited population to suggest that the horse is a World Champion, etc., without a few words qualifying this.

edited to say that I didn't stop to work out the price of the publications properly- probably a bit more than I guessed.
 
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No idea of how useful the magazine is because the site doesn't give you a taster of what is inside.

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Would have to take that back to some extent as I have now found the "tasters" on the other tabs- it's refreshingly broad- minded; I had imagined it was heavily continental and purely warmblood, but there are Irish and British (and other) breeders and bloodlines featured too.
 
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No idea of how useful the magazine is because the site doesn't give you a taster of what is inside.

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Would have to take that back to some extent as I have now found the "tasters" on the other tabs- it's refreshingly broad- minded; I had imagined it was heavily continental and purely warmblood, but there are Irish and British (and other) breeders and bloodlines featured too.

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Well damned with faint praise there for what is regarded as the authoriative publication on breeding amters for the FEI, WBFSH and major studbooks world wide :-)

As you see from the taster much of the copy is provided by the member studbooks themselves (including reporta and results of grading, WBFSH Young Horse Championships etc) and all the national correspondents are speciist equine breeding journalists so I don't think that 12 16-page A3 issues a year plus a 626 page stallion guide is bad value for those that want to be informed of thr facts from official sources, but then again I may be wrong.

As far as G being a World Champion, he did win a WBFSH age group World Championship in eventing so I woudl imagine that that would be enough to qualify (it certainly was enough as far as Dimaggio was concerned as what he won the equivalent in dressage).

BTW, listing full pedigree detaisl for over 8000 stallions would take a whole seruies of volumes but what it does do is list the studbooks for which each stallion is graded so it is particualrly useful for identifying multi-graded stallions and using them effectively within any studbook structure.

I will be away for a week but if you have any queries on this in the meantime PM Magic for my e-mail address if you do not have it already (BTW Magic your PMs are full again!!) ans I will be contactable through my Balckberry by normal e-mail, just not on line.
 
I think the reason most people are wondering about this stallion Ciss is that his owner is repeatedly stating that he is one of the top SIRES, not competitive stallions. No one has any arguement whatsoever with his abilities as a competition horse himself, it is simply the fact that we are constantly being told how much better he is than any other event sire, yadda yadda yadda, when the stats and figures show that whilst as a competitor he is GOOD he is not yet in the leagues of the big boys as a sire himself. I don't think anyone wold have a problem with this fact ordinarily, as of course at 10 he would still be proving himself....we just would all like the people to stop saying he IS when he isn't yet.
 
Boss, I am guessing you are referring more to Future Illusion than to Wish Upon A Star? Only a guess mind you, just my feeling is if I am wanting to breed an eventer then I want to know it is going to be bold XC and as you say, want to do the job - which from what I've seen of WUAS he is and does - and that is something I would not ever know about his sire (Gribaldi) who is a dressage horse - maybe WUAS got that side of things from his dam (who as far as I know has not been ridden competitively, if at all - that was the impression I got from his stud page).

Be interesting to see what WUAS does this season, he's upgraded to Intermediate in terms of points in only 5 novice runs, and I would hazard a guess he may be aimed at Le Lion 6yo champs - though it is only a guess!
 
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But Ciss, the list you refer to is presumably, stallions only that are competing, not a sires list.

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Well obviously it is. It would be very odd to expect a 10 year old stallion (ie one barely old enogh to be doing 4 -star himself) to feature prominently on a sire of eventers list. You have to compare like with like and in peer /age group terms (as they do in Germany as you must be aware) and *based on the period 1 Oct 2007 to 30 Sept 2008* (the official FEI year ends in September and all Annual listings are calculated in that time frame) those are the listings as extracted from FEI and WBFSH sources by what is now the publication that is officially endorsed by the WBFSH as its main disseminator of breeding statistics as Horse International lost that status last year.

The driving force behind Breeding News for Sport Horses, Xavier Leibrecht was also awarded a special Honorary membership of the WBFSH to great acclaim at the WBFSH General Assembly last year (I know I was there and saw it :-)) and I can assure you they would not do that if they had even the slightest doubt that there was any sort of mismatch (and certainly not a yawning gap!) between the full lists and the stallion lists extracted by Xav and his team.

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And how come your list ranks them differently to the FEI eventers rankings (which seems to have Chilli Morning some way above Grafenstolz - 279 vs 659). I'm nbot having a big, just wondering how that publications own ranking system differs from the FEI version in how it is compiled

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Probably becuase the list that is being quoted in that case is the rolling list and therefore not the final cummulative one for 2009, which obviously cannot be drawn up yet.

As everone seems to be moaning about the lack of hard facts and data on this subject can I suggest that you all to http://www.breedingnews.com/ click on Subscribe to Breeding News and Buy the Stallion Guide and then you will have all the necessary facts at your finger tips.

Just a suggestion!

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Ciss if you are suggesting that the rankings of the WBFSH do not count, then why are these the statistics that all Studbooks refer to on an annual basis?

As others have said, why should people have to pay 70 euros to subscribe to the magazine just to see the "other" statistics?
 
Ciss, the list you're referring to must be total FEI ponits gained so far in their careers for currently competing stallions.
The list posted above is the total FEI points gained in the 2008 season where Chilli Morning, despite being 2 years younger than Grafenstolz, gained far more points than him. That said, Grafenstolz wasnt heavily capmaigned in FEI events last year (why?) Especially in comparison to 2006 when he competed in 8(!) FEI events.

Grafenstolz has proven himself to be a very good 2/3* horse and his record speaks for itself. It doesnt need to be talked up and it doesnt need his connections to claim he's the world eventing champion when he isnt- thats what gets to people.
 
Well WUAS has so far had an excellent start to his 2009 season as well seeing as in his 2 runs at Novice this season he has had a 2nd and a 5th and thus clocked up another 7 points....
 
Actual costs for mag AND direstory nearer- 89euros (82 euros online) ie. £79 (£73 online). Which sounds a lot but compares pretty well to buying a magazine, I suppose.

OOps- a bit more faint praise...
 
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