Ex-Grand Prix horse who gave up, ideas?

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Chottsy

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My favourite horse at work has previously worked to Grand Prix level in Germany, but came to us cheap as he no longer worked on the bit. He simply decided that he didn't want to do it any more. He is only 12 so can't have been at that level for too many years as he came to us a year ago. He is the loveliest horse and I have had a fabulous summer hacking him and having fun.
He carries his head very high, and if you ask him to drop round and soften he tenses and lifts his head higher. We have had very experienced grand prix riders on him and he still wasn't interested. He was checked by a vet not long after he arrived for any pain, and had a physio look him over. They found nothing, so it is purely his mind stopping him. On the lunge he will sometimes hold himself nicely, and even with side reins on he will sometimes go beautifully, but he will only do it if he decides to by himself.
Also, don't know if this is relevant, but he hangs his tongue out the side most of the time, particularly if you pick up the contact more (but he does have a MASSIVE tongue). It does go back inside his mouth when he is enjoying himself (e.g. cantering around the fields or having a bit of a jump). He also has rather large lips, the best way to describe it is a lot of tissue just behind where the bit sits on the inside. Part of me thinks it may be a sort of scar tissue from where he had a harsh bit in in the past, but I don't know.
If I could afford it I would buy him in a heartbeat, on the ground he is safe and sweet and almost hacks better on his own than in company, I have ridden him in a headcollar to his field. My perfect horse, I wouldn't care if he never worked round again, was just interested to know if anyone had encountered a similar situation.

Here's a picture for you to see, just because he is beautiful! :D (sorry its a bit blurry)

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Can't really help as my new Arab avoids contact like the plague. But... Oooh, he's gorgeous!! How about encouraging him to stretch the neck muscles using those carrot stretches, and show him how nice it might be. Then progress to doing them on board later? Richard Maxwell has some good ideas for groundwork, maybe check out some of his books.

Useless I know. Just wanted to show appreciation for him!
 
He might have had a bad experience in the past maybe a badly fitted saddle that he is still anticipating the pain of. They dont forget easily.

He is lovely btw.
 
He really is stunning isn't he, and I would let a 5 year old handle him, only thing he is cautious about is having his water buckets filled with the hose. The noise might just eat him! :p Although the hose on his body is fine, numpty! :D

I have done carrot stretches, well they are polo/sugar stretches as he has a sweet tooth and these are far more interesting to him! :p He is so stretchy, I ask him to stretch right round and right down, he is so flexible. When I give him a long rein in walk or trot he will stretch down to the ground, but he doesn't have an in the middle carriage, its either ground or ears up my nose! :p

Still love him regardless! :p
 
Has he had his teeth checked? just wondering if there's something going on in his mouth? He's very handsome though and sounds lovely!
 
I've heard of SJers chucking to towel in and refusing to jump anymore I guess it's of the same thing. He had enough and said NO more.
 
A horse shouldnt "refuse" to work in a proper outline. If they are worked properly (and there is nothing wrong with them), it is how they then go.
 
wench said:
A horse shouldnt "refuse" to work in a proper outline. If they are worked properly (and there is nothing wrong with them), it is how they then go.
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I understand what you are saying, but we have had a number of experienced riders on him, and they can get him forwards but I think he associated the "dressage" head carriage with something he doesn't like.

After a summer of lots of fun on him, he is a much more forward going horse and is much happier in himself.

Since coming to our yard he has once worked beautifully. We had a very experienced and capable dressage lady working there, the first time she rode him he went beautifully, but then never did again, and she rode him over about a 5 month period. He chose to be worked correctly, and he then chose he didnt want to, as she would not have differed her riding.

Please don't think anyone has tried to force him to work round since he came to us. It will sound like he isn't being ridden correctly, and before meeting him I would have agreed with you! :)
 
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He will have worked hard and intensely for many years to become a grandprix horse.

Sometimes they simply do say enough is enough. And people should respect that.
 
I'd ask myself if his bit isn't a little on the thick side, the mouthpiece that is. WB horses, especially Dutch bred, or those with Dutch in their blood lines are renowed for having fleshy tongues. Can you try a Neue Schule with a thinner mouthpiece for example. Or try a little bit butter on the bit to encourage him to mouth. I presume you have had his teeth checked? It might be worth getting a different physio out to check him or to get a saddle fitter to assess the saddle fit.
 
I've got one like that, not ex Grand Prix but ex German dressage horse turned eventer. I got him cheaply because he became very strong and a bit of a bolter. He was very unsettled, and has ongoing pain issues in his back and feet which are easily managed but led to many of his bad habits. He spent around 3 years in a hacking home in which he refused to work correctly before I got him which helped him immensely and now he is offering the dressage movements again. He will compete dressage and eventing at the age of 16 next year as the time off has freshened him up. Your one may be sourer than that, but I would honestly let him tell you what he does and does not want to do (and it sounds like hacking and maybe something more fun like cross country or hunting), and then in time introduce a small bit of outline gradually for a very short time.
 
I would get his back checked again! My mare used to poke her tougue out of her mouth and bite down on it really hard, one day making it bleed and she scared it now! Turns out an old saddle with a broken tree has been pinching her back making it sore! Not massively sore, a few sessions of physio done the trick, and obviously a well fitted saddle! But she also always used to carry her hair in the air and these small changes made a world of difference xx
 
Thanks for the suggestions, I am sure his teeth will have been checked at some point as the whole yard gets done regularly, but will make sure he is checked again.

Bitless would be an idea, although think hackamore may suit him more than other types, as he sticks his tongue out if noseband is done up too much, so dont know how well pressure right round his nose would affect him. Definitely good suggestions though! :D

Another picture for those who think he is handsome! :p (and because I never get tired of showing how gorgeous he is!)

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amymay said:
He will have worked hard and intensely for many years to become a grandprix horse.

Sometimes they simply do say enough is enough. And people should respect that.
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I agree sometimes if they are pushed to hard they just say quietly no.
Continue as you are he's lucky in time I would perhaps play with doing a few circles in a field and the just ride on I once had an overcooked horse to look after who was amazing on a hack but just closed down as soon as he saw an arena .
I am assuming his mouth has been carefully checked.
 
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Get a really, really, good, kind, pro-horse EDT to make sure all is well and comfy in there (PM me your area and I'll find a name for you) and listen to him.

Sounds like being 'out of the classroom and exam hall' is doing him good - carry on and stop getting these 'experts' on him as he doesn't really have a problem in 'horse' eyes, just those of an outline obsessed community.

Also looks like he has landed on his feet and you have yourself an extremely nice horse who has had a lucky escape :)
 
I've experienced this twice, and neither time was it due to a physical issue. Both fantastic, talented horses, who decided not to play ball after years of very focused training. In both cases, we listened to what they were saying, and respected their decision not to work that way any longer. One still did all the moves, albeit above the bit, and one just totally threw the towel in and became a happy hacker.

I figure that horses like that have earned the right to decide that enough is enough - fair play to them.
 
At 12 years of age & to compete at the level he has will mean he has done quite a lot of work to get to that position. If he was still competing at that level then he would have achieved a higher price that he was bought for so I would imagine that there are some issues there. Back, teeth etc will have been checked bu previous owners & various things tried to get him back working because he would achieve a higher price. He has been sold at a lower price so all the normal 'fixes' have been tried by the looks of it.

You mentioned that he sticks his tongue out when riden, this is an evasion, so he still doesn't want to 'perform'. It has already been mentioned that some horses 'Chuck it' basically they lose interest & don't want to compete anymore & they let you know.

I think that possibly the best thing that can be done is to leave him alone. Ride him occasionally, hack him out but don't make any demands save just normal riding & give him some time to be a horse. Turn him out & let him enjoy himself, he's probably lived in a stable for most of his life with little or no turnout, this happens a lot on competition yards. Possibly in time he will decide to turn it on again for you but possibly never.
 
Unfortunately I have had to go back to uni, but he is not being forced to work, he is simply having fun. Hunting is being considered as an option for him this winter, whether he is sold or hunted by a friend of my boss.

He is a much happier horse than he was 6 months ago, and a friend at work was surprised with how forward he was for me in the school, fairly decent walk to canter with energy.

If he doesnt want to do it, nobody will make him, I was just interested in case other people have had these situations where they have decided to enjoy it again, or if he simply won't. :D
 
You say he was trained in Germany, maybe he was trained using rollkur, that would certainly be enough to put me off ever going in an outline again if I were a horse!! He looks stunning though and seems very happy now, well done. :)
 
hollybear said:
You say he was trained in Germany, maybe he was trained using rollkur, that would certainly be enough to put me off ever going in an outline again if I were a horse!! He looks stunning though and seems very happy now, well done. :)
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We did think it may be something like that, because of the tongue thing, as it lollops right out the side. He literally does this face :P !! My friend has a load of pictures which i will upload when she does! Makes him look ever so special!

He is stunning! :D Missing him a lot now I'm at uni!
 
It does sound like he has just had enough and chucked in the towel- fair enough.

HOWEVER, outline is just a by product of impulsion, straightness, rhythm etc so how exactly does he evade? Is it by not being straight, is it by not working over his back? Is he not in front of the leg? I understand he goes around like a giraffe but would've thought a few weeks of long and low work might help.

If dressage isn't what is wanted for him anymore then fair enough, just let him be. However, I really wouldn't rule out a physical issue just yet.
 
Keep an eye on his hocks - I had a mare that was trained up to advanced medium, and when I bought her she worked well enough, but with a lack of enthusiasm.

I went for several lessons with some dressage names, and they all told me to shorten the contact and 'make' her work from behind, but I hated forcing her and eventually gave up with the lessons and just hacked her, which she loved.

A few years later she became badly lame behind, and vet said she had been 'dressaged to death' - bit dramatic, but basically the truth - hocks were knackered. Because they were both painful to her under pressure, she hadn't particularly shown any obvious lameness - bilateral lameness behind is quite tricky to spot, and I felt sad that I hadn't realised sooner that her lack of enthusiasm was due to it being uncomfortable for her to work from behind. She would have lasted longer had it been spotted sooner.
 
I echo AmyMay. SOmetimes they just don't want to do it anymore. I had a gorgeous KWPN who went to Medium by 6. I got him as a 7 yo and fought to try and get him to work comfortably for 4 years. I tried everything but in the end I came to the conclusion that he was pushed so hard, so young that he just could not forgive and forget. He was the sweetest boy ever and is now a big pet as he wasnt safe to hack. I sometimes wonder how many horses don't make it through the training systems in the Continent and end up like your boy.
 
One of the horses i share is an ex show jumper, he has decided that he will no longer jump and shows this by chucking rider when ever asked to jump. Having broken it to his owners that jumping is no longer an option for him, he is now excelling at dressage, funnily enough he loves raised canter pole only if only one end is raises, if you raise both he refuses.
 
igglepop said:
One of the horses i share is an ex show jumper, he has decided that he will no longer jump and shows this by chucking rider when ever asked to jump. Having broken it to his owners that jumping is no longer an option for him, he is now excelling at dressage, funnily enough he loves raised canter pole only if only one end is raises, if you raise both he refuses.
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I had a seriously ring shy young horse who had been over faced SJing while young he would scan any strange schools and check it out for coloured poles if he spotted any he would get up on this back legs and say no way .
I did manage to improve him and progressed to him jumping well at clinics and got him to some intros but I never cracked competing him luckily he was agreat hunter so he did that as a job.
 
Goldenstar said:
I had a seriously ring shy young horse who had been over faced SJing while young he would scan any strange schools and check it out for coloured poles if he spotted any he would get up on this back legs and say no way .
I did manage to improve him and progressed to him jumping well at clinics and got him to some intros but I never cracked competing him luckily he was agreat hunter so he did that as a job.
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It is a shame the damage people can do to horses, i think what happened was he was jumped by a young teenager too much so now he refuses. On the plus side he can jump the 4ft fence out of the field into the next perfectly.
 
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