Ex-Grand Prix horse who gave up, ideas?

You have answered your own question. The horse has discomfort in his tongue. I would bet anything that if you pop an English hackamore on him he will work perfectly round and over his back.
 
igglepop said:
It is a shame the damage people can do to horses, i think what happened was he was jumped by a young teenager too much so now he refuses. On the plus side he can jump the 4ft fence out of the field into the next perfectly.
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Yes it's very sad he was only five when I got him he's was a lovely boy once we chipped away all the anger bur even though I got him going BE it always felt like the hand break was on and the SJ was dodgy he just went stiff and knocked them down I did a intro and had five down one Saturday when to the trainer on Monday jumped a course at 1.20/ 30 because it was training which was ok in his mind my trainer just said I dont know how to help you any more I just gave up I had other horses so really just ran out of stream.
 
Ludoctro said:
I've heard of SJers chucking to towel in and refusing to jump anymore I guess it's of the same thing. He had enough and said NO more.
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Bought my mare as a hack as she was one of these at 7!? She wouldn't come onto a contact either. It took a lot of hacking on the buckle and removing all gadgets and the pressure to perform before she wanted to jump again and now she loves it!

It's a shame but sometimes they have either been put under more pressure than they can cope with and kind of have a mind breakdown. Backing off and letting it go can and does bring them back, but often they are never the same again. They tend to be real tryers that have trusted too.

enjoy the horse you have for now.
 
A friend of mind had a lovely, sensitive horse who had more or less suffered a breakdown from being pushed too hard, too fast with the dressage. If the horse thought he was going to have to do anything like dressage, he'd rear and spin like maniac (and no, nothing physically wrong with him). Luckily, my friend was happy to have him as a pet and occasional happy hacker, so that's what he spent his days doing.
 
Well I think a horses past experience mentally can have a huge bearing on how they decide to go.

My horse is an ex-schoolie, he was 15 when I bought him & he came to me upside down, holding himself all over the place & with badly fitting tack. Even after all his physical problems were sorted and continue to be treated all the time, he mentally did not accept that the pain was gone or what working correctly would be infact giving in to a rider - which he just wouldnt do.

It has taken 4 years & he has finally started to use himself across his back a bit more but when it comes to working in an outline, you can have all the ingredients but he will do it on his terms.

I love him to pieces though & the more he trusts me & the more he gives me but its a forever project rather than a end project - if that makes sense, it will never matter to me if he goes and wins dressage, as long as he stays fit & healthy for as long as he can :)
 
Have an EDT look at him and see if anything can be done about the space issue, mine has had rest seats put in to help him. I have a KWPN with a huge tongue and he has really thin happy mouth bits and neue schuele ones which are designed to accommodate his tongue, I also never use anything single jointed. Your other option is to go bitless and see what he thinks.

My horse was a talented BSJA horse who quit at 10yrs and said he'd had enough. I bought him as a non-jumper with "issues" - he would easily slat experienced riders at a 40cm cross pole without warning! I have had lots of fun with him - beach rides, farm rides, and a bit of pony club. Last year he really switched back on to jumping and got very keen so I did a couple of trailblazers shows just for fun - he proved to be 100% honest and careful with everything thrown at him and qualified for the finals. He is now generally a very confident outgoing "people" horse, totally different from the anxious worrier I bought. I will try him with a bit of BSJA next year and see what he thinks.

I think a less pressurised environment with a good amateur owner/rider and one to one bond works better for some horses than a multi-horse professional. (Please be aware I am not saying that professionals are disinterested in their rides, but just a pure time/money reality for most makes it impossible for them to give some horses what they need). Mine unfortunately still can't be fully trusted jumping with other riders he does not know and like, but I have not "fixed him" to sell so it does not matter to me. I think if you have the time and no burning ambitions that will force you to hurry him or push him in any direction you could be surprised by what he'll offer you down the line. Oh and be prepared for the day when he discovers jumping... I have know many an Ex-GP horse turn into an outstanding jumper who loves it.
 
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In my looong career with dressage horses I have come across two like this, and both had hock problems (one also had a broken pelvis that no-one had noticed until they tried to breed from her!!!). If they REALLY don't want to play, for whatever reason, who are we to force them?
 
My mare became very stressed when asked to work in an outline. She would jam herself up and set herself behind the bridle with her back trailing out a mile. Obviously not working up and through. It would look as if I was riding her, badly, in draw reins ( they have their place but not on this horse ) vet checks, teeth, saddle, physio and dressage trainer finally said we had to accept something somewhere was going very wrong to make her react like that as she was such a Christian mare. We compromised by schooling off the leg for 15 mins before her test then sort of asking her to take a light contact in the test ( we evented) never got great marks but then mare would sail through the SJ and XC. Finally,in her MOT at the beginning of season 4, she went a little unlevel and finally the vet diagonised arthritis in her neck. Going back over her history as had found her breeder, transpired my mare had has a massive falling out with the previous owner, culminating in an extremely bad fall. Point is, that despite constant checks by professionials, this took a long time to come out.

Another friends horse went dressage sour. She moved yards, cut out schooling and hacked and jumped. Took 3 years but now said horse will accept basic schooling again.
 
I can't offer any kind of expert opinion but agree with Cortez. He's had enough for some reason (possibly a physical problem, possibly a mental one) and he's happier not doing dressage. To make him do it would be to defeat the point of dressage.

Ages ago there was a long comment thread on a Fugly Horse of the Day post where people talked about horses they'd owned and known who had very specific likes and dislikes re. sports and activities. I'll see if I can dig it out... It made me appreciate once again how individual all horses are.
 
Poor sod... He was probably very trainable at some point and someone has pushed and pushed.
We used to own an advanced school master who in his prime was worth a fortune. But the stories we found out about him over the years, really upset my mummers it turns out he'd become dangerous eventually.
She bought him at 14yrs old, and in hindsight her abilities at the time meant she didn't ask the
Questions, and by the time she did (took 5 yrs), he'd do anything for her... He was retired and 24yrs, having been a hack for 3yrs, and was PTS at 30yrs.
Sadly this is the typical over producing that goes on, and some horses either don't have the brain and blow, or the trainable ones are pushed to fast (because they give) and then throw the towel in.
It is a massive bug bear of mine, and saddens mrs that there are a lot like him out there.
Horses like him need time... I would however be ruling out everything Physical with a specialist (like Peter Schofield at Hird and Partners), and then carry on with the hacking, and anything but working in an outline. I also think horses like this are better with a 1to1. They need to have trust in whoevers riding them, and once that bond is in place could you start asking for me.
Glad he's found the home he's in, take him jumping :)
A friend of ours has a stunning Totilas look alike, who sacked it off, and wouldn't do it anymore.
Anyway, the husband took him on, and he started doing cross country with him... This has progressed to Eventing and the horse is happy and winning.
 
He's a very handsome boy although I think he's got sad eyes :( There is obviously something bothering him either physically or mentally. If everything has been checked physically and all OK I would stop trying to get him in an outline and just hack him out, let him let his hair down with a few long canters and gallops without any pressure :D
 
I also think he has sad eyes, gorgeous horse though, can you not just enjoy hacking him or do you have to have him doing dressage, I would just do fun things with him, show him life is not all work, how about taking him to a beach if that is possible, ours love the coast
 
I totally agree with Wagtail and others who are sure its tongue related. May be other issues too but just the way he looks in the 2nd photo, lips slightly parted etc, suggests a large tongue in a small mouth.

I have had 2 horses with unusually big tongues (one also a KWPN) they hated the NS Verbindend and other supposedly humane bits. There simply wasn't enough room for it in their mouth. I tried my mare and now the KWPN in a thin Myler mullen eggbutt and the change was amazing.

i would agree to try him in a bitless/hackamore. Bomber bits also do a wonderful tongue friendly bit (mullen type ) although not dressage legal I guess this woudn't matter atm.

Please let us know how you get on with him. Whatever is going on, he deserves some downtime and someone to really listen to him, after years of undoubtedly relentless hard work in an over flexed shape, probably with an uncomfortable bit with his mouth tied down by a flash....

The things we do to horses. So lucky he is where he is now. X
 
Our old TB would go nicely but only if you had the very lightest of contacts, you kicked him into your hand and suddenly he would click into place. Never liked schooling but put on a show when asked to do a test when competing. We rode him in a happy mouth snaffle with reins like washing lines, the only time he was ever naughty was when someone with tight shoulders rode him and he stood in the corner and bucked her off.
Apparently in his younger days if he didn't like the ride judge he would go like a plank and once turned round a bit one.
I would give him some space to be him and find out what he likes doing, isn't just having a nice horse enough?
 
Tiffany said:
He's a very handsome boy although I think he's got sad eyes :( There is obviously something bothering him either physically or mentally.
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I thought this too. He looks troubled, like he misses someone or just doesn't feel quite himself :(

If youre sure there isnt any pain and teeth etc have been checked. Agree give him a hacking holiday for a few months, have fun and let him enjoy being a horse. Build is confidence and trust. He may start offering an outline when he is relaxed. If he has such a fleshy mouth it can't have been comfortable wearing a double bridle.
 
My daughter was given an 18 yr old ex GP dressage horse. He had had every thing possible investigated and huge amounts of money spent in the process. He had been turned away and brought back, and still objected violently to being ridden at all.
Daughter adored his personality on the ground and took him on.
She had 7 fantastic years with her horse of a life time. They hacked for miles, he accompanied the youngsters showing them the ropes. She would ride him round the farm in headcollar. On one occasion after a rather wild holiday in which she broke her ankle she insisted on leading him to field whilst on a crutch, he was an angel.
BUT if you rode him through the gate into an arena he went to pieces. She tried it 3 times in all. The first, about a year after she got him,he Panicked and bolted
for exit. The second a couple of years later, he refused to go through the gate, and the last time, when their relationship was stronger than I have ever seen between human and horse he went in as asked and just stood there and trembled.
He was never asked again, and he never put a foot wrong ever. He would collect himself sometimes on hacks, perform all the moves he had ever learnt when he was excited and
showing off, but only ever on a soft rein. Any attempt by her to ask would worry him hugely.

We believe he had been pushed beyond what he could mentally
cope with and had had a mental breakdown.

He was the most amazing fun horse in her care and they had the best times together ever. She was devastated when she lost him but the two of them were so lucky to have had each other.
 
ribbons said:
My daughter was given an 18 yr old ex GP dressage horse. He had had every thing possible investigated and huge amounts of money spent in the process. He had been turned away and brought back, and still objected violently to being ridden at all.
Daughter adored his personality on the ground and took him on.
She had 7 fantastic years with her horse of a life time. They hacked for miles, he accompanied the youngsters showing them the ropes. She would ride him round the farm in headcollar. On one occasion after a rather wild holiday in which she broke her ankle she insisted on leading him to field whilst on a crutch, he was an angel.
BUT if you rode him through the gate into an arena he went to pieces. She tried it 3 times in all. The first, about a year after she got him,he Panicked and bolted
for exit. The second a couple of years later, he refused to go through the gate, and the last time, when their relationship was stronger than I have ever seen between human and horse he went in as asked and just stood there and trembled.
He was never asked again, and he never put a foot wrong ever. He would collect himself sometimes on hacks, perform all the moves he had ever learnt when he was excited and
showing off, but only ever on a soft rein. Any attempt by her to ask would worry him hugely.

We believe he had been pushed beyond what he could mentally
cope with and had had a mental breakdown.

He was the most amazing fun horse in her care and they had the best times together ever. She was devastated when she lost him but the two of them were so lucky to have had each other.
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Sounds a bit like that Aussie eventer, Henny. Broken and traumatised by showing but comes alive cross country.

http://www.runhennyrun.com/H_J_H_A_M_P_T_O_N.html

Everyone's comments about hidden physical problems sound worth checking out. But he's a beautiful horse and it sounds like he's happy doing what he's doing now.
 
My Dad was a dealer and had a horse like this come in. Sensational thing, absolutely beautiful... The horse had literally had had a nervous break down, was horrific to see apparently. He was as nice as pie in the stable, but as soon as you tacked up and led him to the school/ outside he would tremble, then throw himself on the floor and lay there shaking/would start to sweat and panic. He'd rather seriously hurt himself then be ridden. He was so unpredictable the vet classified him as dangerous and he had to be pts :( I think he'd been worked and worked (maybe uncomfortably) and he went sour, then it completely unnerved him. Such a shame :( but it does happen. He too had nothing physically wrong, had him all checked, vet too said he'd had the evivalent of a nervous breakdown.
 
Dressage at that level is hard on them, mentally as well as physically. Some of them can hack the pressure, but others can't -- like people. I think in many places, trainers and owners assume that if the horse has the physical ability and the breeding to do GP dressage, then that's what it must do and it is pushed until it becomes a nervous wreck, like the horses in the above anecdotes.

It's a bit of a hard mentality to change or for the industry to cope with. Imagine if you'd just spent a squillion pounds on the ultimate dressage horse -- right bloodlines, right movement, right conformation, only to be faced with the rather amorphous excuse of "He just doesn't want to do it." Not something objective and solid, like "He's lame," but more subjective, fuzzy, and challenges the "make him do it anyway" culture that is very much a part of the horse world. Because it's such a huge investment, I suspect that some people are reluctant to accept that their intended purpose for their expensive dressage horse and the horse's ability to cope with that kind of pressure are different, and the horse is pushed until he has a breakdown and becomes dangerous and unrideable.

Just random musings.... I bet there are lots neurotic, failed dressage horses out there...
 
Caol Ila said:
Dressage at that level is hard on them, mentally as well as physically. Some of them can hack the pressure, but others can't -- like people. I think in many places, trainers and owners assume that if the horse has the physical ability and the breeding to do GP dressage, then that's what it must do and it is pushed until it becomes a nervous wreck, like the horses in the above anecdotes.

It's a bit of a hard mentality to change or for the industry to cope with. Imagine if you'd just spent a squillion pounds on the ultimate dressage horse -- right bloodlines, right movement, right conformation, only to be faced with the rather amorphous excuse of "He just doesn't want to do it." Not something objective and solid, like "He's lame," but more subjective, fuzzy, and challenges the "make him do it anyway" culture that is very much a part of the horse world. Because it's such a huge investment, I suspect that some people are reluctant to accept that their intended purpose for their expensive dressage horse and the horse's ability to cope with that kind of pressure are different, and the horse is pushed until he has a breakdown and becomes dangerous and unrideable.

Just random musings.... I bet there are lots neurotic, failed dressage horses out there...
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Whispers..........Totilas............
 
sporthorseP said:
My Dad was a dealer and had a horse like this come in. Sensational thing, absolutely beautiful... The horse had literally had had a nervous break down, was horrific to see apparently. He was as nice as pie in the stable, but as soon as you tacked up and led him to the school/ outside he would tremble, then throw himself on the floor and lay there shaking/would start to sweat and panic. He'd rather seriously hurt himself then be ridden. He was so unpredictable the vet classified him as dangerous and he had to be pts :( I think he'd been worked and worked (maybe uncomfortably) and he went sour, then it completely unnerved him. Such a shame :( but it does happen. He too had nothing physically wrong, had him all checked, vet too said he'd had the evivalent of a nervous breakdown.
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Now this is why I couldn't be a dealer - that poor horse would have been retired to a lovely pasture with me and never ridden again :)
 
Sorry to go a little off topic, but relevant I feel. A question that I always think about is why do so many people write off horses from age 9 years and up as 'being too old to excel in a discipline'?

As so many top level dressage horses are knackered by their teens and were started so heavily from 4 years old, why should a horse that has not been forced at a young age not be able to rise to a high level quickly from say age 9 ? Provided of course there was no special reason such as lack of ability or lameness that held it back.

I hear it so often - oh he's too old to train to do that blah blah.
 
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