Exercises to Develop and Improve the Thoracic Sling

[Quigleyandme]

Could the lovely HHO community please suggest some in hand exercises (with how to) to help a young horse develop his thoracic sling correctly? I’ve searched for Celeste Leilani-Lazaris but I’m not finding any useful content. Thank you. X

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

@sbloom is your lady! I’m also trying to do the same with mine.

these are some exercises my physio gave me today when I asked her.

Lift front leg and then tickle the sternum to get them to lift (same as the standard tummy lift but just a bit more difficult for them!) do for 30 seconds each side.

Lift front leg and push into their chest to get them to rock back on back legs, you’ll see their back rise. Rock them 4/5 times each leg.

Carrot stretches for 5 seconds. The usual, nose to tummy each side, nose to chest, nose underneath front legs.

Beaumoor Sentire on Facebook also posts about the Thoracic sling a fair bit. I saw a video where in hand (or ridden) you have a pole on the floor and you get them to walk over it almost laterally but with the inside fore going first.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Hayball has helped my horse who had a sweeny shoulder injury. She has to back up as the ball goes backwards which lifts her tummy.

 

[sbloom]

Celeste's master class is delivered in a FB group, we have discussed it very recently on here if you search . There is no free content, if you'd like to get a feel for her search for podcasts she's been on.

To me she's the ultimate - the course is not a "do this, do that", it's broken down very simply and you are given goals to achieve in your horse, lots of help on the way, and to decide when you've achieved it. Every horse will need something slightly different. But she gets RIGHT down to brass tacks, it works and pretty quickly for many horses, the relationship between owner and horse, and the understanding of biomechanics, is transformed. There is nothing complex to do, where you might need to lunge and use a cane, or use two reins from the floor, so anyone can do it. I recommend it to nearly everyone.

I personally don't recommend carrot stretches, nor do the rehabbers I like the best; even if done well most of them put weight on the front legs which isn't what we're trying to achieve, hence my slight aversion to physios for this work. Some are great, absolutely, but I like the movement specialists. I recommend all sorts of different people in addition to Celeste, I saddle fit for Beaumoor Sentire and recommend Emma there to anyone who can get to her, plus Dan Wain Equestrian in Warwickshire. They are both along the lines of/trained by Manolo Mendez.

Equitopiacenter.com is an inexpensive membership site where you can read up about lots of like minded equine professionals, interviews, instructional, webinars etc, good place to start - the topline syndrome webinars are another place I send people to start them getting their "eye in" on what poor and good posture actually looks like.

I have a sheet of links to courses I can send out to anyone who sends me their email address.

 

[Goldenstar]

I do do carrot stretches .
My top one for the thoracic sling is the wither lift you find videos on line .
I do this several times most days with my horses .

 

[Barton Bounty]

I do carrot stretches always before we ride?

 

[Goldenstar]

Postural work is really important throughout a horses working life but it’s vital when horses are starting and learning how to bear weight on the back .

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Another thing to consider is what you’re not doing. There is often a tendency to ask young horses to work on an outline that is bringing the front of the horse quite low as people focus on the “long and low” mantra rather than the horse being properly engaged, or before the horse has the ability to properly engage and work from behind.

I remember reading an article about the effect of asking the horse to work with its head dropped being that the front end blocks the swing of the hind limbs, and prevents the thoracic sling from working as intended.

Moving away from “lowering” the horse in front has been a game changer for me with my young mares. Mim moves so much more freely and the energy really comes from behind. The whole thing feels so much more connected and she’s really light in the hand but very much engaging with the bit. She’s a tiny horse so getting any level of expression from her has been a big ask and I hadn’t realised how much my misguided attempt to get her to be long and low was driving the energy into the ground, and blocking the swing from behind.

 

[Goldenstar]

The horse must go down with the neck to come up .
How much depends on the horses conformation the very uphill horse may not stretch down until it’s older while it’s less blessed fellows will attain the stretch earlier .
You work the horses neck as correctly on the lateral line as you can ie straight and in line with the curve of the horses body while remembering straightness is a progression through the training.
Meanwhile the horse ideally is hacking in walk over uneven terrain which is better than steep slopes early on .
Pole work in the school ideally should have started before backing however few of us start with a blank canvas so I will go back to basics with any horse no matter it’s age and you soon start to see wants been missed out further back .
Its important to remember a stretch is just a little further than the horse wants to go it develops over time.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Another thing to consider is what you’re not doing. There is often a tendency to ask young horses to work on an outline that is bringing the front of the horse quite low as people focus on the “long and low” mantra rather than the horse being properly engaged, or before the horse has the ability to properly engage and work from behind.

I remember reading an article about the effect of asking the horse to work with its head dropped being that the front end blocks the swing of the hind limbs, and prevents the thoracic sling from working as intended.

Moving away from “lowering” the horse in front has been a game changer for me with my young mares. Mim moves so much more freely and the energy really comes from behind. The whole thing feels so much more connected and she’s really light in the hand but very much engaging with the bit. She’s a tiny horse so getting any level of expression from her has been a big ask and I hadn’t realised how much my misguided attempt to get her to be long and low was driving the energy into the ground, and blocking the swing from behind.

Most Arab's and part bred breeds tend to prefer a more up frame because of the way they are built because the neck tends to be set higher, so the long and low frame is harder for them to achieve and you hardly ever see arabs that are on the forehand.

I sometimes do the odd schooling session changing the frame slightly to encourage the neck a bit lower, in my showing days I saw lots of Arab's with huge muscles in the centre of there necks with a dip just before the wither.

So you have to be careful that your not just working in the exact same frame all the time as parts of the neck will become under developed, I think a lot of the issue can also be caused by the horse being ridden behind the vertical, I've ridden a lot of Arab's and alot tend to curl up easily and then go btv, my Louis did it alot when I first got him and it is still a bit of a go to with him.

I'm in no way suggesting your doing anything wrong I've seen pictures of Mim and she works in a lovely frame, I'm just saying a few things I've noticed and just an example of what can happen with them.

 

[Quigleyandme]

Thank you everyone. I’m finding all your advice really useful. Thank you for taking the time. This is the three year old (Seamus) that threw me resulting in six pelvic fractures. My crash test dummy, Patrick, sat a similar bronc and tank. Our debrief revealed we had both leaned forward in the saddle; me to tighten the girth and Patrick to pat the horse’s neck. I think the saddle used by the professional trainer was too tight which is why he was so reactive and why he has developed a bit upside down. He was almost impossible to bridle when I got him back. He’s a big lad and would stick his head vertically in the air and clamp his teeth shut. He was improving but I arranged a bit and bridle fitter visit anyway. New bits and bridles are on order for both my boys. Seamus is now reaching into the bridle and taking the bit willingly and going sweetly in short walk and trot sessions in the school with Patrick. He has a second hand saddle which isn’t great but also isn’t causing him any obvious issues for the short periods he is wearing it. There is a flexible saddle in the UK waiting for me to fly over and collect it unless any NI peeps reading this will take delivery? I hesitate to ask but I’m asking anyway.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Most Arab's and part bred breeds tend to prefer a more up frame because of the way they are built because the neck tends to be set higher, so the long and low frame is harder for them to achieve and you hardly ever see arabs that are on the forehand.

I sometimes do the odd schooling session changing the frame slightly to encourage the neck a bit lower, in my showing days I saw lots of Arab's with huge muscles in the centre of there necks with a dip just before the wither.

So you have to be careful that your not just working in the exact same frame all the time as parts of the neck will become under developed, I think a lot of the issue can also be caused by the horse being ridden behind the vertical, I've ridden a lot of Arab's and alot tend to curl up easily and then go btv, my Louis did it alot when I first got him and it is still a bit of a go to with him.

I'm in no way suggesting your doing anything wrong I've seen pictures of Mim and she works in a lovely frame, I'm just saying a few things I've noticed and just an example of what can happen with them.

Yes, I think what I was getting at was that there can be a preoccupation with what the head and neck are doing, rather than the position of the head and neck position flowing from proper engagement of the quarters, the core and the muscles along the back.

In our classical in-hand schooling work, I could suddenly see the muscles working as they should and that was such a lightbulb moment for me.

Watching her pick up her core and seeing what that did to the rest of the horse was really interesting. In the saddle we have to feel for that, because you don’t see the underside of your horse.

We didn’t fuss with where her head was and she naturally came into the right shape just from the engagement through from the quarter to the hand.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Quigley, have you had a good bodyworker (physio or similar) out to treat Seamus since he came back to you from backing? It's so frustrating that he was made sore when he was away, but rest and/or a change of tack may not be sufficient to treat the muscle soreness/damage caused by a pinching saddle.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would take a look at postural training for the broncing baby horse you will find lots on line to look at .
I would assume a horse like this has back pain and here we would just X-ray the back then you know what’s what.
My last set of back X-rays cost less than the fancy saddle pad I was persuading myself was what we needed .
I know a vet that does back surgery a lot and his view is crowding is often present before we start with horses and it’s my view is it’s best to know.
Horses dorsal processes differ in shape and some are more blessed than others.

 

[Quigleyandme]

Quigley, have you had a good bodyworker (physio or similar) out to treat Seamus since he came back to you from backing? It's so frustrating that he was made sore when he was away, but rest and/or a change of tack may not be sufficient to treat the muscle soreness/damage caused by a pinching saddle.

No, I don’t. I haven’t assembled a trusted team around my horses yet. Ireland is very different to the UK, no insurance and a complete dearth of professional, trained saddle fitters. My vet is due to remove wolf teeth soon so I’ll ask her for a recommendation but I wouldn’t be surprised if her reaction is one of kindly bemusement at the crazy English woman’s funny notions.

 

[smolmaus]

There is a flexible saddle in the UK waiting for me to fly over and collect it unless any NI peeps reading this will take delivery? I hesitate to ask but I’m asking anyway.

Would be happy to if it just needs signed for, shoot me a PM! A flight to pick up a saddle ?

 

[Tiddlypom]

No, I don’t. I haven’t assembled a trusted team around my horses yet. Ireland is very different to the UK, no insurance and a complete dearth of professional, trained saddle fitters. My vet is due to remove wolf teeth soon so I’ll ask her for a recommendation but I wouldn’t be surprised if her reaction is one of kindly bemusement at the crazy English woman’s funny notions.

My N.Wales based saddle fitter (highly recommended) does make regular trips to Ireland, but I don't know how near she gets to you.

https://www.facebook.com/1000639984...Dw5e7HCbA837JKGujsfD75oCMpGm4uAMcztNtudAn8Al/

Can you start a thread asking for physio type recommendations in Ireland? There are a number of HHOers there, and they might be able to make recommendations.

You are very much on the right tracks getting over this setback, I do hope that it all works out for you.

 

[paddi22]

deleted, my recommendations wouldn't be in your area, just see you are in sligo

 

[paddi22]

the physios I would recommend in Ireland are Jen Hyland and Emma Moran. most people here wouldn't use a vet for doing any dental work, so Id highly recommend Ciaran Buckley for dentistry, he is amazing. I'm not sure how far they travel though, so some NI people might have closer recommendations

 

[SEL]

The best reason for getting a physio involved before signing up to any programme or exercises on topline development is so they can identify exactly what muscles are struggling and hopefully give you some pointers as to why.

I've got two with poor topline currently. One is my youngster whose default is to slightly ewe neck even in the paddock and stick his ears up your nose under saddle. He's very weak behind and needs to learn to stretch down. He's the most flexible horse I've ever met - managed to scratch his ear with his hind hoof with me in the saddle the other day. That flexibility means he can carrot stretch easily, but exercises have to be handled with care to avoid over doing it. He's young, hypermobile, weak stifles and gets tired easily - off the shelf could do more harm than good.

The microcob's default is already long and low and that's because of old injuries as well as her conformation. Just letting her stretch and turning off those neck muscles does absolutely nothing for her. Trotting does nothing for her either (hollows her back) - she needs to walk or she needs to canter. In hand polework, backing up without tensing her neck, wither lifts are all on her exercise plan.

For a youngster who has shown their discomfort with a rodeo I'd definitely want professional help in drawing up a plan. If Paddi's physios are local then their help early on would be invaluable

 

[Quigleyandme]

My N.Wales based saddle fitter (highly recommended) does make regular trips to Ireland, but I don't know how near she gets to you.

https://www.facebook.com/1000639984...Dw5e7HCbA837JKGujsfD75oCMpGm4uAMcztNtudAn8Al/

Can you start a thread asking for physio type recommendations in Ireland? There are a number of HHOers there, and they might be able to make recommendations.

You are very much on the right tracks getting over this setback, I do hope that it all works out for you.

Any Irish or visiting UK professionals tend to confine their activity to the horsey counties in the east of the country - Kildare, Tipperary, Meath, etc. If any reputable professional did venture west follow-up assessments/adjustments aren’t going to happen so any benefit may be short-term. The bridle and bit fitter recommended Horsemanship Saddlery bridles and bits. HS won’t ship to Ireland. Apparently An Post is so unreliable (!) they lose half her consignments and the documentation so she can’t claim compo. I don’t know why she doesn’t use DHL or DPD if that is her unique experience with the postal service. They have an agent in Germany but she has no stock and frankly I haven’t detected any Teutonic efficiency in that quarter so feel like I pretty much wasted €140 on that visiting professional. The horse is doing OK. He is not displaying any of that behaviour/resistance and is going sweetly in his 20 minute/once a week ridden sessions. He has an extremely expensive flexible saddle on its way to him and fitting will be conducted remotely until we are all satisfied.

 

[sbloom]

Philippa Kearns is a bridle and bit fitter, is very knowledgeable on groundwork, classical training etc, is based Roscrea and does travel, if that's any help, though of course it may have been her who recommended HS.

Carrot stretches - really not for lifting the TS and I think there are better ways of helping a horse learn to switch off the underneck than just having the head and neck really low - in fact even if standing with weight correctly over all 4 feet the upper neck can switch on if you take the horse's head too low, every horse has a different height that works for them. Too many carrot stretches have the horse leaning over the front feet which means the TS is dropped.

 

[Quigleyandme]

It was Pippa Kearns. She has been incredibly helpful and very thorough in her assessments of my two horses during our appointment. I just wish I could get the bridles and bits she recommended. I did suggest she expands her business to include sales but hopefully the distributor in Germany will improve her stocking levels and communication in time. In the meantime my vet will be removing their wolf teeth. I’m not sure about Celeste LL. I would like to be able to view/read something/anything about her methodology before paying a subscription and I find the Kardashian style glamour shots extremely off putting.

 

[Reacher]

This book is excellent
Exercises are grouped by what issue you want to work on. Beautifully presented and illustrated.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corrective...11&hvtargid=pla-562466305639&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

 

[Quigleyandme]

This book is excellent
Exercises are grouped by what issue you want to work on. Beautifully presented and illustrated.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corrective...11&hvtargid=pla-562466305639&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

Thank you Reacher. I’ve ordered the book. To have something in print will be really helpful as not only is that my learning style but I can take it into the arena with me for a quick consult when my horses invariably don’t behave like the model horses do and I don’t get the response the presenter gets in online tutorials. I also find often there is just too much unnecessary talking and my mind drifts.

 

[tristar]

there is a lady dentist near elphin, roscommon if you ring the vets in elphin might be able to give the phone number

if you have transport the E D T VET at troytown in kildare is very good, O`sullivan is his name, expensive but worked all over abroad, thorough and knowledgeable, leaves horses with very still quiet mouths

 

[AntiPuck]

Gillian Higgins' website, Horses Inside Out, is well worth taking a look at - very practical stuff, and I've found her exercises have made a big difference to my horse. Mixture of free content and paid tutorials.