Exmoor ponies being culled

ester said:
Oh good you are back, how interesting that you picked up on those two posts to reply to but have failed to respond to posts that asked direct questions about the situation............

Hashrouge I imagine TFF thinks it swings quite close to the defamation rules on the forum.
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Yup Ester, the OP has slandered on most places & just keeps on going :rolleyes3:
 
so Dawn, there you are chucking your toys out on FB.again.

I do wonder why you think everyone who disagrees with you is from the EPS. People don't have to have a vested interest to disagree with your interpretation of events or point out why certain breeders might have a delay in registering stock. I would of course do it on your page, but I am blocked and have been for years for discussing something completely different to this. I am not an EPS member, so your daft threats on FB about the EPS code of conduct on social media don't mean anything.

This was a news story that you orchestrated and that means you have to deal with any criticism of it.

again, the only people responsible for culling those ponies are the people that own them, nothing you say alters that basic fact.
 
oh good grief, what nonsense! A bit pot kettle isn't it? ' some of this is particularly nasty and unreasonable and is negatively affecting people's reputations '
 
I have read on here about disrespect shown to Exmoor farmers? In H&H this week a statement by an Exmoor farmer read as follows "this Autumn I slaughtered 10 after weaning. If you have to keep a freshly weaned foal for more than a month or two, it doesn't look right for sale" how sad to read this when in actual fact, a weaned foal given correct feeding, worming, basically, the care and attention appropriate to age will look more than right for sale. How can a farmer who deliberately brings so many foals into the world, opt for slaughter rather than take responsibility by providing their basic needs, command respect?

In the same issue, another Exmoor farmer is described as a romantic, runs a large number of ponies and very beautiful they are too, however problems arise at registration time owing to the fact that so many breeding mares and foals create difficulties in identifying correct parentage, the same romantic farmer then stated on television his foals would be shipped off for slaughter as it would appear he begrudges the care, attention and expense involved in keeping foals he has bred.

We all know, owning and especially breeding horses and ponies is and always has been expensive, summer is a good time when with ample grazing ponies can be self sufficient, come autumn and winter, costs escalate with additional feed etc especially a growing foal. By deciding to breed from any animal there is a duty of care, the future wellbeing of a young life should be priority.

There are far too many horses and ponies being bred nationwide, horse welfare charities are stretched to their limits so, for the good of the Exmoor Pony, why not consider - reducing numbers to a manageable level, foals who may need to be run on awaiting suitable homes, will not prove a financial burden and can be provided with required food, shelter etc. without being considered a problem.

If wishing to breed ponies eligible for full entry to stud book – reducing numbers would aid better record keeping, thus foals presented for registration should not encounter delays due to doubts relating to correct parentage etc.
Finally, by working together, (already a great spirit of camaraderie) if one farmer is in the fortunate position with all foals sold, he could pass on sales enquiry to his fellow breeder, surely of benefit to all concerned, smaller numbers are much more likely to have buyers waiting.
 
Find it quite ironic that she's linked to the social media rulings in the EPS Policy regarding anything that could be "defamatory".

You cannot call something "Cyber Bullying" when in fact you're making sweeping statements about a society that are working incredibly hard to keep the integrity of a breed. You're bound to get people's backs up if such statements are made when people are incredibly passionate about their animals. If you don't want to receive a backlash, then perhaps don't make such outlandish statements in the first place.
 
gracenco said:
I have read on here about disrespect shown to Exmoor farmers? In H&H this week a statement by an Exmoor farmer read as follows "this Autumn I slaughtered 10 after weaning. If you have to keep a freshly weaned foal for more than a month or two, it doesn't look right for sale" how sad to read this when in actual fact, a weaned foal given correct feeding, worming, basically, the care and attention appropriate to age will look more than right for sale. How can a farmer who deliberately brings so many foals into the world, opt for slaughter rather than take responsibility by providing their basic needs, command respect?

In the same issue, another Exmoor farmer is described as a romantic, runs a large number of ponies and very beautiful they are too, however problems arise at registration time owing to the fact that so many breeding mares and foals create difficulties in identifying correct parentage, the same romantic farmer then stated on television his foals would be shipped off for slaughter as it would appear he begrudges the care, attention and expense involved in keeping foals he has bred.

We all know, owning and especially breeding horses and ponies is and always has been expensive, summer is a good time when with ample grazing ponies can be self sufficient, come autumn and winter, costs escalate with additional feed etc especially a growing foal. By deciding to breed from any animal there is a duty of care, the future wellbeing of a young life should be priority.

There are far too many horses and ponies being bred nationwide, horse welfare charities are stretched to their limits so, for the good of the Exmoor Pony, why not consider - reducing numbers to a manageable level, foals who may need to be run on awaiting suitable homes, will not prove a financial burden and can be provided with required food, shelter etc. without being considered a problem.

If wishing to breed ponies eligible for full entry to stud book – reducing numbers would aid better record keeping, thus foals presented for registration should not encounter delays due to doubts relating to correct parentage etc.
Finally, by working together, (already a great spirit of camaraderie) if one farmer is in the fortunate position with all foals sold, he could pass on sales enquiry to his fellow breeder, surely of benefit to all concerned, smaller numbers are much more likely to have buyers waiting.
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Well said.
 
DawnWestcott said:
That is SO misleading and disrespectful to the Exmoor moorland farmers Heatherbelle! With EPS ‘issues’ in identifying pedigree registered parents; failing to issue pedigree passports to foals that passed inspection and were DNA verified; failing to confirm DNA and apparently ‘losing’ samples years after being sent them; incorrectly recording mare and foal combinations at inspection - and missing ponies out of data capture - it’s clear there ARE big problems with EPS management and processes. That’s not a ‘vendetta’ - it’s expressing concerns about Exmoors whose lives are put in jeopardy and ruined as a result. Perhaps time you stopped dissing the farmers/land owners asking for improvements and started researching the actual facts?
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How frustrating not to be able to delete posts you don't agree with!! Not misleading and disrespectful at all. 'Dissing'?? Not sure I quite understand this word!! As I pointed out in a previous post, there are very few farmers who have this problem with registrations. The number 21 was mentioned in another post, and out of those 21 I believe there would be at least 15, if not more, who are perfectly happy with EPS management. But you are straying from the point of this thread. If the farmers who have problems with dna results for whatever reason are unable to keep any foals for more than a month, which was stated by one farmer, surely it's time they reduced the number of foals bred, so that they are able to run on any foals that may have dna problems. And as for the breeder who openly admitted they had disposed of 60 ponies, they should be hanging their head in shame. What a shocking thing to do.

Footnote : This thread would not have been started if you Dawn had not splashed this issue all over tv, the press and social media. So if anything defamatory or misleading has been said, any lies told, any insults thrown, or there has been cyber bullying or mobbing, then you have only yourself to blame.
 
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Well said Gracenco. Irresponsible breeding doesn’t just apply to travellers. They’d do well to have a look at the New Forest ponies. They’ve gone to great lengths to reduce the numbers bred each year and to maintain the quality by only allowing selected stallions to run on the forest. This seems like one of those situations that “just because you can, doesn’t mean you should”.

I’m also presuming it costs money to shoot and dispose of foal? Actually I probably don’t want to know the answer to that one :(
 
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The simple, most humane, most cost effective strategy to deal with what is nothing more than an overproduction of in registerable stock is to stop breeding! If you cannot guarantee a home for any animal that you breed, if you cannot feed it, if you cannot easily obtain a society passport because your herd records are not up to scratch take your stallion off the moor until you are able to meet the needs of any stock you produce. A society cannot be held accountable or held to ransom for any subsequent welfare issues due to over saturation of the market. There has always been culling of unwanted colts. Just stop breeding them!
 
This is what I don't understand, if you have made sure that your mare and stallion are on the database then a parental DNA confirmation will be relatively simple and quick (which seems to be what the EPS is saying).

It is only if you don't know the breeding which means the database has to be searched to try and find a match that there is a delay, which makes total sense but is also avoidable if your herd is sorted and your breeding well managed.

The breeder in the H+H who says that a foal isn't in a saleable state 1/2 months post weaning just has me gobsmacked quite frankly.
 
I would hope that that the appropriate welfare organisation are made aware of a breeder who is happy to state in the national press that they are unable to keep a foal in reasonable condition for sale between weaning and 4-8 weeks afterwards. That is an appalling thing to admit to and should be investigated.
 
Smallbrownpony said:
I would hope that that the appropriate welfare organisation are made aware of a breeder who is happy to state in the national press that they are unable to keep a foal in reasonable condition for sale between weaning and 4-8 weeks afterwards. That is an appalling thing to admit to and should be investigated.
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This.... I am sorry I cannot understand why a pony (a hardy native pony at that) would look so poor after weaning. I have worked in thoroughbred bloodstock and weaning and taking to a sale is perfectly normal, and if you go to a bloodstock sale there will be very very few "poor" weanlings.
I currently have an arab that I have weaned for an owner and in 4 to 8 weeks time it will be starting in hand showing... again, not poor at all.
What the hell is this farmer doing... and if thats is his knowledge of ponies maybe he would be best just getting rid of the lot of them!!
 
There are other factors:
- DNA hasn't been collected from all mares
- DNA is collected and lost
- Mares are misidentified
- Mares can't be identified (can't read brands and either not microchipped or microchipped has migrated/failed)
- low marker DNA tests can't successfully distinguish between closely bred herds
- original DNA database source data is incomplete/incorrect
- mare and foal combinations correctly presented by data recorded wrong (mix-ups and missed out ponies)
- Data is recorded at all on DNA samples
- DNA samples mixed up
- DNA samples corrupted
- Failure to issue pedigree passports for foals that passed inspection and were DNA verified
- Failure to supply DNA results years later
- Data recorded incorrectly on passports and in stud book
And so on - believe me, all this happens and this is what we are complaining about.
 
DawnWestcott said:
There are other factors:
- DNA hasn't been collected from all mares
- DNA is collected and lost
- Mares are misidentified
- Mares can't be identified (can't read brands and either not microchipped or microchipped has migrated/failed)
- low marker DNA tests can't successfully distinguish between closely bred herds
- original DNA database source data is incomplete/incorrect
- mare and foal combinations correctly presented by data recorded wrong (mix-ups and missed out ponies)
- Data is recorded at all on DNA samples
- DNA samples mixed up
- DNA samples corrupted
- Failure to issue pedigree passports for foals that passed inspection and were DNA verified
- Failure to supply DNA results years later
- Data recorded incorrectly on passports and in stud book
And so on - believe me, all this happens and this is what we are complaining about.
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'We' need to step back then & determine why the many many issues mentioned, are not experienced by most others? If 'we' put our house in order, didn't cross breed, didn't use different entires, didn't actually know what mare was which (and I could go on!) then 'we' wouldn't need to keep on being a complete pain in the butt in the media, eh?

For the purposes of above, my 'we' means the OP.

OP must find it very difficult on here, as you she unable to edit or delete any responses that don't suit, hey ho :)
 
DawnWestcott said:
There are other factors:
- DNA hasn't been collected from all mares
- DNA is collected and lost
- Mares are misidentified
- Mares can't be identified (can't read brands and either not microchipped or microchipped has migrated/failed)
- low marker DNA tests can't successfully distinguish between closely bred herds
- original DNA database source data is incomplete/incorrect
- mare and foal combinations correctly presented by data recorded wrong (mix-ups and missed out ponies)
- Data is recorded at all on DNA samples
- DNA samples mixed up
- DNA samples corrupted
- Failure to issue pedigree passports for foals that passed inspection and were DNA verified
- Failure to supply DNA results years later
- Data recorded incorrectly on passports and in stud book
And so on - believe me, all this happens and this is what we are complaining about.
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So why are those of you who are experiencing these problems continuing to breed????
 
DawnWestcott said:
There are other factors:
- DNA hasn't been collected from all mares
- DNA is collected and lost
- Mares are misidentified
- Mares can't be identified (can't read brands and either not microchipped or microchipped has migrated/failed)
- low marker DNA tests can't successfully distinguish between closely bred herds
- original DNA database source data is incomplete/incorrect
- mare and foal combinations correctly presented by data recorded wrong (mix-ups and missed out ponies)
- Data is recorded at all on DNA samples
- DNA samples mixed up
- DNA samples corrupted
- Failure to issue pedigree passports for foals that passed inspection and were DNA verified
- Failure to supply DNA results years later
- Data recorded incorrectly on passports and in stud book
And so on - believe me, all this happens and this is what we are complaining about.
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Which is why I asked who was doing the testing, ie is it an issue with who they have contracted to do the work, or do you only hold EPS responsible for those problems.

'- DNA hasn't been collected from all mares' this problem here, surely is the breeders problem, if you have mares that DNA hasn't been collected from, get collecting!

'Mares can't be identified (can't read brands and either not microchipped or microchipped has migrated/failed)' - again why hasn't the owner of the mare made sure she can be identified?

'- Data is recorded at all on DNA samples' - I don't understand what you mean by this?
 
Microchips do not migrate, they are injected into the nuchal ligament where tissue grows over them preventing them from migrating.
As for the restof your post, Have you got irrefutable evidence of this and can we see this anywhere other than on your various pages which in all honesty is your own view and not shared by any others, from what I can see.
 
So the gist of all this is... (Someone = the same 1 person)

Someone who was removed from the EPS uses the media to attack the EPS...
Someone supports the breeding of exmoor mares to non exmoor stallions while claiming to keep the breed pure...
Someone supports indiscriminate and over breeding by 'breeders' who haven't kept their records in order and then complain when the EPS won't just issue a passport...
Someone supports the breeding of foals just to be euthanised because the breeder can't be arsed to keep them for an extra couple of months...

Just to clarify, the only contact I have with exmoors is that I share a yard with someone who keeps them and they all seem to get fat on fresh air. So if the breeder is in such penury that they can't keep a few exmoor weanlings around, what the **** are they doing breeding in the first place?

I am somewhat confused...
 
Spartacus said:
As for the restof your post, Have you got irrefutable evidence of this and can we see this anywhere other than on your various pages which in all honesty is your own view and not shared by any others, from what I can see.
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The only view allowed on the 'various pages' is the view of the page admin. All other views are deleted and the posters banned, as has happened to countless folk who have attempted to to contribute to various issues.
 
SpottyMare said:
So the gist of all this is... (Someone = the same 1 person)

Someone who was removed from the EPS uses the media to attack the EPS...
Someone supports the breeding of exmoor mares to non exmoor stallions while claiming to keep the breed pure...
Someone supports indiscriminate and over breeding by 'breeders' who haven't kept their records in order and then complain when the EPS won't just issue a passport...
Someone supports the breeding of foals just to be euthanised because the breeder can't be arsed to keep them for an extra couple of months...

Just to clarify, the only contact I have with exmoors is that I share a yard with someone who keeps them and they all seem to get fat on fresh air. So if the breeder is in such penury that they can't keep a few exmoor weanlings around, what the **** are they doing breeding in the first place?

I am somewhat confused...
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^^^^^^ THIS in spades
 
^^^ yup again, and I have no contact with exmoors at all, I rebroke one in about 17 years ago so certainly not any sort of EPS mole.
 
Heatherbelle said:
No-one can attack you on here!!! We are all entitled to our opinions on the subject of whether breeders should be culling foals!
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When she slanders me off on FB I will hold you lot responsible then eh ;)

But what I said was, "This thread makes me incredibly incredibly sad; after all it's the ponies who will suffer in the end for it. People need to take some flipping responsibility."

I would like to add - as has been reiterated many many times already - it is not the EPS sending ponies to slaughter, it is their owners, unless you want to tell me EPS members (Fuzzy Furry, do you have something to 'fess up!? ;) ) have been sneaking onto the property of this "breeder" and shooting their "purebred" ponies. No one who is passionate about a breed is going to be sending it to slaughter; this stinks of a want for publicity and drama. But if the horse world wanted drama, we'd read the tabloids - dragging a worthy society's name through the mud is just underhand and unnecessary. As a longtime lover of all native breeds and supporter for those who work to better them as a breed, I do not for one second think the EPS are responsible for the registration troubles of this "breeder" of "purebreds". It's worth pointing out, too, that yes, the breed standard of the exmoor pony does not allow ponies who are too pale or have conformational deficiencies but an ethical breeder wouldn't be worried about such things as they would be breeding healthy, happy, true-to-type animals who would in the end be more saleable and have better future prospects as a result, which benefits everyone: breeders, buyers, and of course the beautiful beasts themselves.
I applaud what the New Forest Pony Breeding and Cattle Society have done in the New Forest and definitely think that this is a scheme that societies should consider rolling out elsewhere where there are free living ponies. Bealieau Road Sales have also implemented a minimum bid of 21 guineas on ponies, this safeguards their future to a certain extent as people are less willing to abuse/neglect animals who are worth more - happily gone are the days when a New Forest colt could be bought for 5 gns, and in my (albeit fairly worthless) opinion, this should be the case elsewhere, too - for instance on Exmoor.

The current figure of horses "at risk" of "abuse, neglect or abandonment" stands at 7,000 according to the BHS; slaughter prices for one well kept horse however are £400 per head. So in this equine market climate I think breeders really do need to be asking themselves, should they be producing foals at all?
I could go on and on on this topic to be honest but I won't, don't see the point, though I will say that DW blaming the foals' tragic deaths on the EPS would be like me blaming the death of our unregistered shitland (if he died but he is going to outlive me I swear lol) on the Shetland Society - especially as she also keeps going on about how breeders are unable to get their ponies registered, in which case the EPS has even less to do with them than if they were true purebreds!
 
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