Expecting a refusal - how to get over it?

[Charmin]

A few years ago I had a horrendous dirty stopped who would canter very confidently up to jumps, then drop her shoulder, buck, twist and dart off. It ended in a lot of painful falls as sometimes she was foot perfect but then she'd just have me off. She ruined my confidence and she was eventually sold to a dressage/showing/hunting home.

I now have my homebred, a 14.3hh who is one of the most honest little horses I've ever sat on. She can get the most awful strides to things and always 'goes' and snaps her legs out the way - she honestly, truly wants to do everything. Click through these tog pictures here to see how honest she is! http://www.thefotografer.co.uk/Gall...p?p=LAUR7417.jpg&album=Show+Jumping+2.11-4.18

It's all been going swimmingly, been XC schooling and she jumped everything she was pointed at, been to a few SJing competitions and gone clear or had a pole down, she's been great. So trundled off to arena eventing, which was SJing in the arena, down a little chute into a grass arena, few working hunter jumps there, then back up the chute.

She had some truly horrendous strides SJing but was fab, really jumped well. Left everything up too! However down the chute I went a bit tense expecting her to be thrown by the change to XC. She jumped the first fence a bit hesitantly, then refused the second (a hedge thing) but I can feel when she's going to refuse and I just... I sit there like a lemon. I go defensive, even though I know if I sorted myself out she'd go for it. But I can't, I just freeze and she grinds to a halt very confused. She popped it lovely the second time, even though I had no leg on from about 3 strides out.

I'm so annoyed with myself, she had another refusal but then proceded to trample through the jump because she honestly WANTS to go so much, she knows she should be getting to the other side and she's just not understanding why I'm not. Then she popped the last two, cantered over the finish. I went and jumped a couple in the warm up ring to make sure and she was absolutely fine so I don't think there's any lasting damage.

I am so annoyed with myself, this is a horse who is so good and she should be out BE80/90 winning at that level because her dressage is good, her SJing is normally clear and she storms around XC. We won a unaff BE80 last season and she was just a dream.

I don't know whether it's because I've been away at uni and lost my nerve a bit, but I come home every 3 weeks for 5 days and ride then. I'm so conflicted, it was all going so well and I feel like I'm letting her down in the last few strides! Please tell me I can get over this?!

 

[showpony]

Sounds like the horse needs a little more support from the rider. What's her quality of canter like? We have spent months working on getting the " right canter for jumping" ive found the right striding follows if canter is right.
Tbh I'd strip it right back and go xc schooling with a decent instructor to help get both your confidence levels up.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Definitely get some lessons with a good instructor before u try jumping on your own again. I'm 'normally' a fairly confident jumper at novice/intermediate RC level. A few months ago my horse stopped at the final fence at a competition. I didn't ride her into it properly, it was a 3ft parallel & I went straight over her head & through it! It was the first time in the 4 years she's stopped at anything having jumped up to 1.25m at home. About a week later I came off again at a tiny first fence of a grid & it really know knocked my confidence.

so,

Since then, I have been having fortnightly flatwork lessons with a brilliant instructor. Our flatwork has come on loads & I aim to start jumping again in the next few weeks. I think going back & addressing gaps in your flatwork is a positive thing to do, making sure you have an adjustable canter & that your horse is infront of the leg & listening to your seat. Don't rush it, remember you can practising by doing pole work. Definitly get a good instructor though, sounds like you have a good horse so you just need to work on your where your head is!

 

[TarrSteps]

What sort of work does the horse do in between your visits home

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

Defs recommend some lessons, but try imagining yourself going over the jump, think yourself through it when you walk the course and on the approach stand infront of the fence, imagine the approach and picture the jump over it, when you're riding it and about 3 strides out you should be thinking about the next fence anyway!

Some help with positive imagery can really help with this!

 

[Charmin]

Thank you very much for your replies everyone. I have a fantastic flatwork instructor and I think I might ask her to come out and give us an XC lesson.

What sort of work does the horse do in between your visits home

She's ridden 3-4 times a week by a friend, basically as a confidence giver around lower level SJing once a week, schooled twice and a hack once. She's had once glance off, once, when she overjumped the jump before and ran through her hand past the next fence but jumped the next time.

Interestingly enough - just thought of it - we had a lad who's riding Int (he's about 14/15?) on ponies try her, she jumped fine SJ but had troubles XC - we put this down to the heavy going and saddle slipping as she's a bit precious.

 

[khalswitz]

I have real problems with my lad refusing - and what it took me to get over it and ride positively was the most horrendous day where I realised that even with dirty stops, shoulder drops, bucking, rearing etc he still didn't get me off. Now, I concentrate on riding leg to hand, not letting my body collapse in front of a fence, and most importantly NOT LOOKING DOWN. I look up and over my fences, or if I'm worried I shut my eyes two strides away. Makes you concentrate on what you're doing and riding properly into fences. I know his problem is confidence (and after a saddler visit I've realised the last six weeks of continual stopping wasn't helped by flat flocking!!) so I have to be confident enough for both of us.

I've also found grids a saviour for us. We've done quite a bit of work on grids, with poles marking out strides and plenty of bouncing which really gives him confidence rather than trying to see his own stride and getting deep.

 

[Orangehorse]

NLP lessons - for you?

 

[TGM]

It's a difficult situation when you are away and not riding the horse regularly - you won't be as riding fit, or in the same frame of mind as when you are riding everyday, plus your horse isn't getting the continuity of training with the same rider. Presumably you will be home from uni for the summer soon? I would give competing a break until you are back for the summer, then get back into riding regularly, have some jumping/XC lessons and I suspect you will both get your mojo back and flying round BE90s with no problem!

 

[Bantry]

Thank you very much for your replies everyone. I have a fantastic flatwork instructor and I think I might ask her to come out and give us an XC lesson.

I think you need to sort out your jumping problems over show jumps before you tackle xc, at least that way if you get it wrong (which is part of the learning process) the poles will fall and there's less chance of horse or rider being injured. I know you said you've been out doing some sj but you'd be better off cementing your confidence over the poles at home so that arriving to a fence on the right stride comes naturally to you both. It's not a black art, its just a matter of practice and confidence. Right now you with Uni you probably aren't getting enough regular practice so I'd suggest either getting a jumping lesson at the end of the 5 days or concentrating on flatwork. You can always uses poles on the ground to help you get your eye in and also to work on getting the right lenght of stride between fences

 

[siennamiller]

http://www.hypnobalance.co.uk/build-confidence-and-self-esteem-hypnosis.html#.U3oh5Nq9KSM

I had hypnotherapy from the above hypnotherapist, she is excellent, it made a massive difference to my confidence.

 

[Twiglet]

Looking at the photos, she looks quite green, and seems to be coming off some dodgy strides. While this is evidence of her honesty, it also probably doesn't make for the most rhythmical or relaxing round for either of you, which is not going to be a confidence builder.

As someone else says, at this stage i would forget about XC and concentrate on getting the best canter you can possibly get - loads of work at home on the quality of the canter, with lots of polework and transitions.

 

[Fides]

If in doubt kick on and grab and chunk of mane. A good instructor should boost you up.

 

[Cheshire Chestnut]

I've had the same thing, plus a break for several years = a very nervous jumper! (which is something I've neever been in the past so I was very frustrated)

Get an understanding instructor - not the 'get over this now or I'll hit you with the whip' type! Someone that will start you at the beginning again and build you up to gain your confidence back.

I also bought a new saddle with big knee rolls, jods with a sticky bum and a new body protector - all probably not making a difference but it made me feel so much better and it showed

Good luck!

 

[maccachic]

Agree with lessons and maybe on a schoolmaster if you can.

One thing you can try is visualisation before hand - ride a course in your head and do it perfectly - many times if you need to. Helps get your head sorted before you jump and worked quite well for me.

 

[Mike007]

Without having seen it ,(and that could entirely change things) my instinct is that you froze. It happens ,dont beat your self up.Horses are the ultimate mind readers and they know ! even before the rider conciously knows they are fluffing it.Having had experience of a dirty stopper is somthing that can take a lifetime or one good honest horse ,to overcome ,but you have to work at it too. The honest horse needs some help as well. Lessons/schooling. NLP is great too. And even (god help us) mike screaming get your effing legs agoinst his sides and stop that ridiculous ponyclub kicking too. (thinks,should I delete this,No , actualy I believe this and think that riders flapping transmit so much negative vibes to the horse,so I shall leave It)

 

[VRIN]

It does take time and self belief. I had a stopper and only now (3 years later) have I started to believe that my current horse won't put in a dirty stop... Finally I am stopping the panic response(s) - freeze, pc kick ......etc - and starting to just keep my leg there sit quiet and believe!

 

[kerilli]

She had some truly horrendous strides SJing but was fab, really jumped well. Left everything up too! However down the chute I went a bit tense expecting her to be thrown by the change to XC. She jumped the first fence a bit hesitantly, then refused the second (a hedge thing) but I can feel when she's going to refuse and I just... I sit there like a lemon. I go defensive, even though I know if I sorted myself out she'd go for it. But I can't, I just freeze and she grinds to a halt very confused. She popped it lovely the second time, even though I had no leg on from about 3 strides out.

I'm so annoyed with myself, she had another refusal but then proceded to trample through the jump because she honestly WANTS to go so much, she knows she should be getting to the other side and she's just not understanding why I'm not. Then she popped the last two, cantered over the finish. I went and jumped a couple in the warm up ring to make sure and she was absolutely fine so I don't think there's any lasting damage.

You can definitely get over this.
I'd break it down into a few things: Firstly, have some lessons on something that keeps a good rhythm to the fences and jumps nicely. This will remind you of how it should feel, and give you loads of confidence.
Secondly, "she" didn't have the bad strides, you did - it's the rider's job to give the horse a decent chance to jump the fence! On youngsters, even more so... a more experienced horse will cope a lot better, usually. So, I'd find a good instructor who will show you how to really work the canter until it is REALLY good (bouncy, punchy, straight, rhythmical, balanced) so that you just come to the fence with that and then the jump will be much easier for you. It's easy to be brave from a really good canter, honestly! The approach is EVERYTHING, for the horse's confidence as well as the rider's.
Lastly, it might be a good idea to put a xc rider who is experienced at riding young horses on her for a few goes. It is a bit of an art imho, it's not just a case of riding them strongly at fences so they always go... sometimes they have to be given time think and to work it out (if she's bold SJ but hesitant XC, this is the case, I suspect), not rushed and flustered, just a teensy bit of leg occasionally to say 'yes, go forward and cope', the leg there as a guard really, ready to push if they have a backwards thought, but otherwise quiescent.
Hope that helps a bit.
It's lovely that she is forward-thinking and usually happy to go from anywhere, but I really would take steps with a good instructor to nurture that innocence...

 

[misskk88]

All I can say is what Kerilli said!

Sounds like a case of rider nerves impacting on what seems to be, a green horse and her nerves.

All I can say is I TOTALLY feel for you. I use to have a wonderful horse, he was super in every aspect, except jumping. We could jump a fence off one rein, go to do the same again off the other, and he would put in a dirty stop. Or we would be doing some jumping or gridwork, and it would be the 3rd or 4th time he dumped me or dropped me out of his shoulder. After back, teeth, vet checks etc- we had to simply agree that jumping was not his thing, as he is THE most genuine horse in every other aspect. He currently teaches beginners/RDA and more experienced riders with their dressage/lateral work. It is a shame as he jumped beautifully- but you could just never trust him and you could see overall, he did not enjoy it.

If I were you, I would invest in a good instructor, have some basic lessons around polework, gridwork and jumping, and work on your canter too. Don't be scared to have a look at your horses current workload, and ensure you REALLY have the right riders to bring on her confidence and jumping, while you are away. Nothing undoes your hard work more than someone else coming in and teaching the wrong or bad habits!

Lastly, don't beat yourself up... it happens to everyone at some point. You clearly have a genuine little mare, who just needs bringing on and confidence developing. Take things a step at a time and enjoy it! It is meant to be fun for both you and her. I now have a school mistress who is fab, she loves her jumping, but I have gone back to basics with it all to ensure my confidence is ok. I would rather us do a mini course we both enjoy than to be worrying the whole way around, because you can then build on this.

Good luck

 

[Charmin]

Firstly I would like to say a massive thank you to everyone and their lovely replies. It really has been thought provoking, so thank each and every one of you! To those of you in the same position, it is horrible isn't it, I can really sympathise.

Here's a video of a jumping round in January if anyone wants a gander. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2G9tAz7s4k

Interestingly I've really been working on the canter recently to try and get it right. Flatwork wise she is pretty good, she's such a sweetheart and tries her little heart out. We're currently just about to go out at Novice and are currently conquering the Elementary movements. I think I'm going to have a chat with my flatwork instructor and get some jumping lessons, she really knows her stuff but has only ever done flatwork with us, our jumping instructor moved back to America.

 

[kerilli]

That video looks good. I'm guessing from your first post that it's not quite that good at the moment, though? I think you should stick to small fences (where it doesn't usually matter if you are a bit wrong, and she's much less likely to stop if you do freeze up a bit). Also, remember the GOOD bits, watch rounds like that one, remember all the good jumps you've had, don't fixate on the few dodgy moments (which is human nature but destroys the confidence!)

 

[Charmin]

The showjumping was I would say exactly like that - a few 'dodgy' strides as per the video, she was very eager. It just all went to pot when we went onto the XC phase.

Interestingly just found this video from end of March - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI2knOtFwpk (I beg you please turn off the sound, mother asked me to jump a fence and then was standing right in the way hence a bit of screeching!) where we go from SJing to XC in an arena, and this was very much how she went on Sunday. Extremely sweetly jumping, then backed right off XC. Whenever we go XC schooling she's normally got the bit between her teeth and really attacks everything, so I'm wondering if going from SJ to XC is throwing her? Or I'm not riding as confidently for whatever reason XC in an arena.

I wish it had been videoed as it makes for interesting analysis!

 

[kerilli]

Hard to tell as only see you jump a couple of xc fences, but the first one, you didn't see the best shot so had to fire her a bit (but that is much better than sitting there doing nothing, the result was a good jump!) and maybe that made her a bit more suspicious of the next few?
Tbh I would just keep the fences small until you are more confident, until you are gagging to do them bigger... she won't mind, it will increase your confidence, which is paramount. She looks a lovely jumper, so much to like.

 

[rotters13]

Hi OP: This may be a bit of a odd question but where are you looking when you come into a fence? I find that if you look a the fence (particularly the bottom!) you are able to "analyse" where your stride is and then often confuse the horse. If you are looking "over" the fence however, your weight is not over the horses shoulders and as a result you are much more 'forward' and can be more positive.

Just my finding. Would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

 

[kerilli]

The trouble with that is that if you are looking over the fence on the approach, you aren't judging your distance at all. For most people it's between whether to look at the top of the front of the fence (as I do) or the bottom of the fence (as some do, and some SJ trainers will tell you to, imho to 'shorten your eye' kind of thing). Obviously in the last few strides you switch to look over the fence, not at it, as that would make you look down... The type of fence makes a difference too, as does the approach speed, imho... when travelling at speed xc to a sloping fence, say a 'chase fence, I think most riders probably look over it earlier than at, say, an upright fence.
Sorry, that sounds complicated. But if the rider wants to leave the striding to the horse, rather than risk fiddling and strangling it, say, I think looking over the fence is fine. Just ride forward using legs within the stride's rhythm and leave the rest to the horse. Works okay up to about 1m ish. Anything over that, or anything complicated, most prefer to be on a decent shot rather than left to their own devices... unless they are very good at judging their own distances and altering their stride accordingly on the way in.

 

[khalswitz]

The trouble with that is that if you are looking over the fence on the approach, you aren't judging your distance at all...
Sorry, that sounds complicated. But if the rider wants to leave the striding to the horse, rather than risk fiddling and strangling it, say, I think looking over the fence is fine. Just ride forward using legs within the stride's rhythm and leave the rest to the horse. Works okay up to about 1m ish. Anything over that, or anything complicated, most prefer to be on a decent shot rather than left to their own devices... unless they are very good at judging their own distances and altering their stride accordingly on the way in.

I agree - I've been specifically told to let my horse sort his own striding as he is very green at showjump type jumps, and I tend to micromanage things, so that then when it goes wrong he panics. So I've been told to look over my fence and let him sort himself out. But with a nervous rider and young green horse, surely letting the horse learn to sort itself out is a good idea? It stops the rider interfering if they are nervous and likely to upset the matter rather than help, and teaches a young horse how to judge for itself? I assume the jumps aren't that big in this situation that the rider is needing to (or even able to on a green horse) adjust the striding etc.

 

[kerilli]

I think it depends on whether you ever want to jump bigger. If you do, then honing your eye every chance you get is a good idea. I agree that leaving it to the horse to learn a bit is good (and it's something I do, hopefully judiciously, but sometimes accidentally) but if you keep getting bad spots on a green horse it can really rattle them. It's not just a case of point and hope, if you want to build confidence and go on, imho.

 

[loobylu]

There's a video somewhere online analysing where top riders look coming into a fence. If I remember correctly, they mostly focussed on the top pole of a fence, looking over it only on the last stride or so. It was reported in H&H at the time but I can't remember much more.

 

[Mike007]

Just watched your video ,and tbh I was expecting so much worse ,LOL. A good effort but I do have some suggestions ,firstly ,ditch that bloody whip , there is nothing that you cant achieve with hands and heals that that stick will provide . If you need it then it is already too late. It is a distraction,you dont need it !. Also ,there are times when you are being carried into jumps, You need to sit back and drive with leg pressure,(not PC Kicking ).But all in all you arnt doing too bad a job so believe in yourself and your horse.

 

[Sherree Russell]

Hi Charmin, Have you been able to work through your issue ?