Experienced Riders Please = Canter Issue

[Caritas]

I have had my horse for 4 years and we have always had a problem, sometimes it has been major and sometimes it has been slight. At the moment it is a slight problem but bad enough for us to get maked down in our dressage. Its the tightening of the back in canter which restricts the hind leg coming through quick enough and causes tension throughout. The trot is lovely and consistant, round and relaxed. Then when you ask for canter, the head slightly raises, the jaw tightens, the back tenses which then in turn slows the hind leg. He becomes unsettled in the rein and it is hard to sit on which makes the seat not so light, which in turn doesnt help with the tightening of the back which is a vicious circle!! Now I have tried tapping himup with the stick, which obviously makes him buck. I have also tries a stronger bit than the snaffle to keep the submission, this seemed a lot better (but do i want to ride in a stronger bit??). The only thing I havent done is gone back to basics, cantering on the buckle. Its funny cos i actually think that he will find this hard cause he is so used to being tight. The only problem I will find with this is once I try to bring him up again in front he will tighten again. Then we will be back to square one. My instructor says that no matter what, I should hold the contact and kick him into it but this isnt easy. When his back is so tight he cant go forward no matter how much he wants to. PLease dont come back with any questions regarding pain issues as there deffinately arent any, this has all been thoroughly checked. Look forward to receiving your replys. Many thanks

 

[igglepiggle]

If you don't mind me saying, your instructor doesn't sound massively sympathetic. I would really go with your gut instinct and canter him stretching down as much as you can, until he relaxes over his back. You may need to do this a few weeks to break the habit and build up his strength but you will be able to pick him back up...eventually. My horse can be very similar, when he worries, he tenses or when I worry, he tenses. I had to do lots of long and low before I could move ride get him anywhere near as strong in his back. Good luck!

 

[Caritas]

Many thanks for your reply. The problem is that unfortuantely when I ride my horse long and low, he gets stuck on the forehand and then it is very hard to pick him up??

 

[igglepiggle]

Yup, I had that too but I really think you have to persevere and just change the way you ride him long and low, if that makes sense. Don't let him pull you down, use your leg to push him down (if that makes sense) and then use your body to lighten his frame. I really think you could do with an instructor to help you though, as I know its not easy. Where are you based?

 

[Caritas]

I am in Bristol and my instructor is on site, a professional dressage trainer.

 

[Weezy]

have you reviewed videos of what YOU do in canter? Could be something very slight that you are doing that is causing the tension. How does your horse canter in the field?

Your instructor sounds as useless on the issue as mine is - my mare naturally canter downhill and trying to engage her softly and round is an ongoing nightmare. Tomorrow I am going to ride her in a NS Jumping waterford to try and sit her on her hocks more - she is in a french link, is not strong (lazy really) and is off the leg, but we just cannot crack the canter.

 

[igglepiggle]

Oh well, it just seems an odd thing for a trainer to say but they can be so different. Let me know how you get on anyway..

 

[bamboozle]

he sounds the same as mine - almost a bit precious in the contact...ive had his issue with my horse - tried working long and low and it wasnt successfull...he just ran off onto the forehand and it was flipping hard to get him back. im afriad the only way i got my horse to submit was by keping my hands very steady-not fiddling, so that the contact was even, but almost verging on riding with hard hands (i didnt like the idea of this, at all!) but if its anything like mine, it will canter around for a few circles with its nose in the air, then when it realises your not going to shift, he'll submit because he'll find it much easier. when he does submit, soften your hand again and let him relax into your contact.he works much better with a strong even contact. but your horse might be totally different!good luck.

 

[eventing_chick]

Have to agree about the instructer comment, Kicking a horse into the contact will not get rid of the tension.
I have used this method with good results.
Try in the canter to counter flex his neck little by little increasing the bend, this should free the muscles in neck,ribs and back as well as encouraging the hindleg 'through' as he relaxes you should 'allow' him back into the correct flexion.
Be very correct in your weigth distibution.
You will have to be patent some horses get in the first session some will take a week. Remember don't get in a pulling match as he will probably lose his ballance. Oh yeah and stoking the neck with the inside hand while counterflexing may help too.

 

[Caritas]

Thanks Weezy, I must say it is hard. When I tried him in a pelham yesterday he was so light in my hand, like he is in the trot, he didnt even try to evade and straight away he was softer in the back which made it easier for the hind leg to come through. I didnt have any pressure on the bottom rein just rode on the top so no real pressure, just thought it would be better to try that rather than hanging on to the snaffle with a fixed contact. Is this the right way to go or not? Do I do as Lebt says, riding long and low until relaxed, but he will be on the forehand or do I carry on using this bit alternate days with my snaffle? Thanks again

 

[katiejaye]

Hi Caritas, I understand your issue as I had the same problems with Louis in the past too. An instructor once described Louis as looking like he was cantering in a miniskirt as his hind legs weren't coming under him enough (more so with the right hind) and he was getting stuffy and rigid.
My current instructor has helped me a lot with this issue as like you if I used the stick rather than getting more movement/mobility in his hind/back he would crab up and buck. A good exercise I use to get Louis off my hands and coming through properly for his hind is to canter a 20m circle and as you get to the corner bring your inside hand up and over to create a bend and keep your outside hand down and half halt so you don't end up with an exagerated neck bend but more of a bend in his body. At the same time keep your inside leg on as you come into the corner. Once he gets the hang of it he should start stepping under with the inside hind and drop off your hand, you can use your stick to tap the inside hind also if your leg is not effective enough. You can maintain this in and out of the corner and when you get a few good steps straighten up again and put both your legs on and ask him to move forward out of the bend. If you do that on both reins it helps to get the hind more active and should help him to come through with his hind and soften over his back. Before you attempt it in canter you can try it in walk and trot also. I find this exercise great and has helped us so much.
Very occasionally when we have a relapse I do this exercise and it really helps.

Also make sure you are not getting tense and if you feel him getting tense make sure you relax your pelvis to go with the movement rather than block it.

I hope that makes sense

 

[Weezy]

[ QUOTE ]
Have to agree about the instructer comment, Kicking a horse into the contact will not get rid of the tension.
I have used this method with good results.
Try in the canter to counter flex his neck little by little increasing the bend, this should free the muscles in neck,ribs and back as well as encouraging the hindleg 'through' as he relaxes you should 'allow' him back into the correct flexion.
Be very correct in your weigth distibution.
You will have to be patent some horses get in the first session some will take a week. Remember don't get in a pulling match as he will probably lose his ballance. Oh yeah and stoking the neck with the inside hand while counterflexing may help too.

[/ QUOTE ]

See I do that every session, and well. Instructor today was very complimentary about my flexing work, but it just does not help

Think polo pony and you have my horse in canter

If I take too much rein/hold she doesn't move forward even if you have electric spurs on - was told over and over to ride her up into the bridle today, at the end I felt like chucking the horse at instructor LOL!

(sorry for the hijack Caritas)

 

[Weezy]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this the right way to go or not? Do I do as Lebt says, riding long and low until relaxed, but he will be on the forehand or do I carry on using this bit alternate days with my snaffle? Thanks again

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is absolutely the right way, hence why I am going down the same route! If it helps the horse out then it helps us out. I CANNOT do long and low with P, she would be head down in the dust

I am going to alternate too - we can exchange updates!

 

[igglepiggle]

You can ride long and low without being on the forehand. Eventingchick is right, outside flexion should help and patience! Bamboozle is also right, just because you ride long and low, shouldn't mean you chuck away your contact, and therefore you can still 'give' when he relaxes and softens, but only a little or you have to start all over again. Sure he will get there though, if the trot has come already!

 

[Weezy]

KJ that is interesting - I have tried that, was trying it today again, but P just drops out through her outside shoulder and drifts, even with a VERY strong outside leg in situ - ideas?

(Again, sorry Caritas

)

 

[Caritas]

Thanks all you guys, keep um coming, well impressed. No worries Weezy!!

 

[Caritas]

So are we saying that this could be a submission problem causing the tension, lets broaden this debate please??

 

[katiejaye]

I agree with Lebt and I also understand what you and caritas are saying about riding long and low as Louis used to be the same, very on the forehand and I was always reluctant to ride long and low. However once I was taught how to actually "ride" long and low, not just letting the horse pull you down it more like riding forwards into a low contact and really using your seat and leg to lengthen the frame. I use it a lot now in my every day routine just to get Louis loose and it really helps.

 

[Caritas]

I personally do not have a problem with riding him long and low, in an outline even in medium canter, I would be in control but he will be on the forehand and it will be hard to bring him back up again without creating tension,

 

[Weezy]

Oh I am fully aware of how to ride long and low and I never let the horse pull down in the slightest - she can walk and trot beautifully long and low and does so every time I ride her, but not canter. When you watch her in the field using her natural, unhindered gaits, she is exactly the same, canter is obviously her downfall (no pun intended!). Personally I think it comes from years of not having correctly developed muscular structure, and this is improving. P is not heavy unless you try and ride her up into the bridle, then she becomes a dead weight (canter only). Maybe I just need to keep at it (isn't that always the way with horses) but it is bloody annoying.

Caritas, yes, I think it IS a submission problem together with worry from the horse that it cannot carry itself in true self carriage.

 

[katiejaye]

[ QUOTE ]
KJ that is interesting - I have tried that, was trying it today again, but P just drops out through her outside shoulder and drifts, even with a VERY strong outside leg in situ - ideas?

(Again, sorry Caritas

)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup i totally understand as I battled with the same issue for a while, Louis would drop the outside shoulder and create too much neck bend to drop behind the vertical and avoid the contact. It's all about setting it up before your ride it if that makes sense and also use the corner of the arena and really ride right into the corner so the horse has not option but to step under or end up in the wall/fence. Make sure the inside contact is consistent and almost hook your hand up and over and half halt strongly on the outside but keep the hand low so the horse cannot drop it's shoulder. Also make sure you keep your legs on really strongly as with me as soon as I lost my leg contact Louis would drop down a gear and slow down and it was a lost battle...it's a case of keeping the engine going in order to get the hind action. It took me a few weeks to really really get it working but once it clicked it worked a treat. I'm sure sometimes that it is a strength issue too as when my instructor gets on he can do the exercise with no resistence as he is much stronger in his seat/arms. Now my strength has improved I am finding it easier.

 

[katiejaye]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh I am fully aware of how to ride long and low and I never let the horse pull down in the slightest - she can walk and trot beautifully long and low and does so every time I ride her, but not canter.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course I completely understand you know how to ride it, sorry didn't mean to imply you didn't, I was referring to the canter too. I always found it no problem riding the walk and trot long and low but found canter more of a struggle. It defiinately will improve though as it took a while for Louis' canter to really loosten and develop but now it's improving every day. Now he's learning to really carry himself and be more consistent into the contact it's really improving. He was also reluctant to take the contact and hold himself and would rely on me to hold him up. These days if he starts leaning on me a quick flick up with my hands combined with a tap with the whip/leg reminds him to carry himself.

 

[Weezy]

Do you want to come ride P

I do think that because she IS so not strong, I find it tough to ride her with a strong hand and I know my reins tend to get too long to really ride with a firm contact. At least I appear to be working towards the right goals and using the right exercises.

 

[katiejaye]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you want to come ride P

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to admitt I haven't properly ridden any other horse apart from the orange one in about 10 yrs so would prob be useless!

[ QUOTE ]
I do think that because she IS so not strong, I find it tough to ride her with a strong hand and I know my reins tend to get too long to really ride with a firm contact. At least I appear to be working towards the right goals and using the right exercises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean, my instructor was always shouting at me to shorten my reins and be firmer but I was always worried that I was asking too much, but he said to me that it was a vicious circle and unless I asked for more from Louis he wouldn't develop the stength to improve. However I have to def say stick with it as it's working really well for us

Bloomin horses...too much hard work

 

[Worried1]

Suppling exercises such as canter pliets from the quarter and three quarter line will really help - it will also help to engage the hindquarters and help lift the horse up through the back.
Other exercises to try are jump seat canter along the long side and the light seat into the corners while maintaining a strong working canter.
Canter on a 20 metre circle and then spiral in through a slight shoulder fore position, the spiral back out through leg yield. This can also be repeated using quarters in when the canter is more established.
Have had a similar problem with my mare where she would break continually and all of these exercises although, tough to begin with, have really helped.
x

 

[Partoow]

Hi there,
Have only skim read the posts so sorry if i repeat anything already said.
When i have horses that have problems like this i tend to use lunging with either a De Gouge or the Pessoa.When using these, position your body so that it pushes the hindquaters into a recieving hand contact. That connection can be a 'passive' one. Somettimes it feels when i listen to other teachers that the connection is some kind of war zone. For me it is a place where the horse is 'shown' dirrection and 'helped' with their balance.by lunging with such devices the horse can remember that the canter is their problem and then they can find their own way to relaxation.
Quite often you can go a long way to getting to the root of these problems a little further back in your work. these schooling issues are are then amplified by the momentum of the canter.
To improve the reaction to your leg with his leg it is important to make sure that the 'corridor' of connection it always open that you do not, to flex to the inside pull the inside rein onto the neck but remember to turn your shoulders and suck back with the bent elbow and a light hand as you do this remember the horse will then want to fall in at this point you support with the leg in a strong squeeze and a light tap. The outside leg is often forgotten a bit and it really needs to 'hold' the hindlegs 'on' to the bend, it is this that helps the inside hindleg find its need to be active and reactive.
Your body neeeds to stay tall growing each rib and each vertabrae in an up dirrection with your pelvis upright [ i.e be carefull not to 'arch' your back'] keeping tone and stillness in your 'core'.
Quite often we as riders become so worried about the ask and the result in the canter that they drop their shoulders, sometimes the 'long and low' work takes the shoulders in this dirrection which does not help the horse realise its opening in the shoulders because that, is after all what we need to facilitate the feeling of throughness of the hindleg, is the crux of the problem.Riders also then also tend to hold with the thigh and knee ;this then creates another block to throughness.
As you ask for canter remember to stay 'open in the body and the hips with the legs in a supportive lower leg contact with the inside leg clearly at the girth and the outside leg clearly behind as i mensioned. Please dont think im being patronising i am sure you are all really good riders but this is something i work on daily and many of the faults i did'nt realise i even had and i remind myself about 1000's of times a day. the other thing especially on the circle is not to lean in. The circle will naturally weight your inside seatbone so you dont need to add to it! If the inside shoulder has too much weight on it the it too blocks the freedom in the shoulder and prevent the hind leg from doing the carrying that is required. This will then create tension and a loss of confidence when the horse feels balance is being compromised if the hind leg is restricted from jumping through.
Genrally i find by really looking at the riders body position that many issues in the canter can be corrected.
By doing this the suppling on the circle exersice has far greater effectivness as we are in a better balance and more able to keep the shoulder open and free and therefore the hindleg more free to connect with the hand in a forward way.
I hope this makes sense and to some extent says , in essence to push the horse through the contact as your instructor says but it is not an agressive act it has to be in a way that opens the door to the horse to help its self and to work 'on his own legs' and not against the hand. The horse needs to be able to climb through the contact not be stuck on it.
When he does this the canter will come.

 

[Tempi]

Just curious, but youve posted this at least 2 times now about your horse just spaced over the months.......

Like ive said before to you, lots of transitions, riding long and low, work in a pessoa etc will help to relax him through his back. Dont put pressure on him, if hes not happy make sure you do go back to basics - i certainly wouldnt be kicking him up into the bridle like your instructor says

 

[Weezy]

Great post as always partoow! I think I might get some canter vid and you can give me an in depth analysis if you find 5 mins

 

[ihatework]

Isn't this the horse that had a kissing spine operation?
If so, even if the horse isn't now in pain there is a chance the horse is still anticipating some pain and hence tightening. Us riders tend to play a part in this too!
Personally back to basics, let the horse re-establish it's canter for itself. As others have said lots of no pressure long and low work, pessoa on the lunge etc.
I would perhaps consider trying a different instructor too.

 

[khan]

Hi Caritas,

Have you watched carefully how he moves on the lunge when he is tacked up, and does your trainer have this problem with him? (sorry - if they have ridden him). Have you a chambon you can use to encourage him to stretch and not tense?

I don't believe in keeping a tight contact and kicking on when you have an issue like this because there is obviously a problem which needs resolving correctly, because it is affecting you and your competition.

Have you had your saddle checked? it could be that your saddle fits your horse but not you, if the seat is not wide enough for you (i have this with saddles, if they are too narrow for my pelvis i feel very one sided, esp. in canter and fast work).

I believe that you are not going to win a tug of war with any horse - ever - and that doesn't make for harmony or relaxation either.

Work on your balance, and like you suggest if it is safe go back to trot work and canter work on the buckle in your menage, I promise if your saddle is ok and fits you both you will see results within hours - maybe you should get a slightly more sympathetic trainer - the german way can be too hard on a lot of our namby pamby horses (mine included!)

Hope this helps x