Explosive and dangerous and LONG!

If she were mine I would get her hooves x-rayed - not just your usual angle, but from the frontview and from the back of the leg.

Just incase something is not just so, the extra pressure going into canter could be pinching her hooves - and face it at least you have a record for future use
 
Broke but happy - yes it does make sense and thanks.:)
As usual I knew I could rely on you lot to give us more to investigate.

Ok, so this is Plan A.

Saddler on Saturday
Osteopath on Monday.
See what Osteopath has to say.
This may lead onto
1) Find another recommended EDT and get a 2nd opinion.
2) Ask vet to investigate for ulcers.
3) Send to instructress for assessment/re-starting.
4) Decide if she is actually too much horse and sell her to a professional.(Very very last resort!)
5) Because of her breeding use as a brood mare.
6) Sell her as a brood mare.
7) Use her only for hacking (HUGE waste of this horse).

Believe it or not I am actually pleased she came to us. A lot of riders over her would have tied her down and forced her to work in an outline which would just have made her much worse and possibly totally unrideable. :mad:

In the meantime, daughter will carry on training Grey mare to restart dressage in October - another long and woeful story.

Can't decide the next step till Monday.
 
I don't think that there is anything physically wrong with your horse, though having all the checks done, again!, is no doubt par for the course.

Take her back a level.

Make sure there is no sugar in the diet, ie, stop the apples and carrots.

I'd really like to see how she's behaving, but sounds like she has lost a little confidence somewhere along the line here. She is still immature though, so a little patience and confidence building will help. I certainly wouldn't be changing tack or out at this stage.
 
micramadam said:
Believe it or not I am actually pleased she came to us. A lot of riders over her would have tied her down and forced her to work in an outline which would just have made her much worse and possibly totally unrideable. :mad:



Can't decide the next step till Monday.
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Lucky horse!

Do keep us updated.

Just to add, sister's horse had a canter problem (wasn't properly 3-time) which we found to be caused by a poll problem - acupuncture sorted it out.
 
oh gosh she has a huge canter! is it possible she just isn't ready/ balanced enough to be asked to try and carry herself yet, please don't take this as an insult but she looks like she is only just able to canter in the space she has in the first video, think she probably needs a larger area until she can sort herself out.
 
piebaldsparkle - the video in April was at taken at Academy Bartels.
Tinneke banned my daughter from cantering with her.
Shortly after this we looked around and found our current instructress and B has made a lot of progress. She doesn't tank off now in canter like on the video, just leaps into the canter with her head in the air and then if she doesn't rear she actually starts to work very nicely. It's mainly at the canter transition that we have the problem and asking for more contact/outline. We can ask for it in trot and 99% of the time it's not a problem and then out of nowhere... Boom! and up she goes. It happens more often in the canter transition.
I still happen to think she has never been taught a proper canter transition so goes into complete panic when asked for it as she is not sure what to do.
But, to be absolutely certain it's not physical we'll check all the physical aspects as well.
We have been working slowly toward the canter transitions since we started with this instructress in April and now we are trying to sort this but the last fortnight it has reached a point where my daughter is scared to ride her without the instructress being there because of this. When she is having her lesson it goes much better but the instructress lives 70km away and I work full time so we can only go once a fortnight.
We are taking everything onboard from the answers given here and we are determined to solve this.
 
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sorry should have also said my friend had a 5 year old that was very similar although not got to the extent of rearing, my friends daughter used to really struggle with him, she asked me to get on one day and it was like riding a damn roller coaster and made me feel sick. instructor told me not to hold him let him find his balance as the canter was just too big for him at that time, it has come much better, but has taken about 18 months, think he still broke in the canter in his last test!!
 
Good luck, she looks a beautiful mare and she is going to have a massive canter. It may just be a training issue, she is a big mare, with big paces and may just not be balanced/developed enough to carry herself, so the reaction, maybe fear base as she feel insecure. Rule out season/pain reaction as equally it could be that or it maybe a combination of both.
 
mjcssjw2 said:
sorry should have also said my friend had a 5 year old that was very similar although not got to the extent of rearing, my friends daughter used to really struggle with him, she asked me to get on one day and it was like riding a damn roller coaster and made me feel sick. instructor told me not to hold him let him find his balance as the canter was just too big for him at that time, it has come much better, but has taken about 18 months, think he still broke in the canter in his last test!!
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18 months! Ok. Another year to go then.:rolleyes:
She does have a huge canter and is not a small horse she is about 16.3 and probably still growing which in itself could also contribute towards the problem. Convinced she has added a couple of cm's since she came to us and got fed properly.

Good job we have a lot of patience. Helps that my daughter has my mare to train and a 2 year old colt to keep her busy.
 
Hollycatt said:
Sorry to hear your mare is having problems. You say you have had her six months but her rearing/exploding problem has started now you have increased the difficulty of her work. Was she cantering in the school before with no problems? Has she accepted a contact before? I would be very, very surprised if she had not been ridden on a proper contact before as a six year old, particularly if you bought her in Holland. By increasing difficulty what sort of level is she at and what are you now doing? You could take her back down a level to what she is comfortable with and see if the problem disappears.

I did have a mare that was fine at lower level work (up to about medium) but reared whenever the work got hard. She had done too much too soon and never got over it. I am not sure if that may be the case with your mare. I had another gelding from Holland that was the same. Not rearing just napped. Fine lower level RC work but not for anything more. Some days would be fine, others not. Both of my horses had competed at M level/medium by 6 and had just been pushed too hard. If you don't know her history and with the talent to do upper level work its possible someone has had this problem in the past.
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I thought, from the earlier posts, that the horse is telling you that she is not ready. The videos back that up so much.

micramadam said:
You hit the nail on the hard. She is definitely throwing her toys when asked to work in a more advanced outline but only in canter.:confused:

Her half passes and shoulder in's are worth 8's and 9's and she loves to do these but if we can't even get her to do a basic canter transition what use is the rest.
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It sounds as though she is doing more advanced movements without the basics being there yet perhaps?


Our 17h horse was very unbalanced in the school. He also could get quite stroppy and cross if we pushed him too far. We worked on his transitions on straight lines on hacks initially, not doing too much in the school. It worked. I also put my fairly novice stepson on him this year (horse now 8) and he doesn't ask for as much as I did. They really clicked together and have come on leaps and bounds.

I would take her out of the school a lot more. You're not wasting her, you're taking your time, which sounds to be needed. She won't be wasted. She is only six, for goodness sake - only a baby - who has had a late start anyway, so is at the stage of a younger horse... Let her grow up. Let daughter get used to her and get her confidence back. They are both young, there is no rush. To keep pushing them both will end in a confidence failure on both sides...
 
My daughter says that is what the instructress and her have been trying the last couple of lessons -daughter adopts foward seat to try and help her with the canter transition and then stays in a slightly forward seat throughout the period of canter. Sometimes B explodes sometimes she doesn't, though she does explode more at home then at the lesson but like I mentioned before instructress doesn't live on the doorstep unfortunately. Previous instructress and a lot of others around here want instant results and wanted us to tie her down and force her.:mad:

I'm not going to rule anyone's suggestions out, on the contrary, I'm very grateful for all help. If necessary we'll go through them all.. Keep them coming. I'll have to think of a Dutch delicacy I can promise you all.:D
 
Sorry you are having problems with your new horse and I can't offer any real advice. If she is alright hacking out in canter maybe she just panics when put under a little pressure?
 
JanetGeorge said:
And that's probably a good part of the problems you're having. That's VERY good breeding for a dressage horse - but you could expect her to be 'hot'! I recently had a 4 year old mare in who was Jazz ex a Flemmingh mare and she was a scorcher - stunning movement but VERY explosive at the teensiest thing that upset her!

Obviously you need to rule out all possible health problems - particularly back - and perhaps send her to your instructor for a couple of weeks. Then SHE will be able to advise you whether the mare is just a bit TOO much horse for your daughter. Some of these very well-bred WBs are very much a professional ride! No reflection on your daughter, but even the best of amateurs can meet their match!
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Nothing to add other than I agree.
 
I do feel for you and admire you for your efforts and care. Your post set me thinking. K.W.P.N

Knowledge..........You need to know a bit before taking on one of these....(you and your daughter obviously do.)

Work.............These horses need stimulation with sensitivity. There is so much you can do in walk and even halt to keep them thinking. Then when they are physically mature enough to handle their huge movements it is a case of 'light the blue touch paper.'

Patience...........Boy do you need bucket loads of this. My horse is Doruto bloodlines,notoriously late developers......will light the blue touch paper next year....maybe!

Narcissism........Admittedly this is the first N I came up with that was relevant,so I simply speak from personal experience here. I watch the movement of my horse and dream of great things. I want to show him off doing these great things.....He wants to be a horse and munch grass!

Perhaps other owner/riders would like to offer their interpretation of KWPN.:)
 
Lovely horse but watching the canter video from April I would be very surprised if it isn't a pain issue. :-( Hope you get to the bottom of the issue quickly. :-)
 
I would take her out of the school a lot more. You're not wasting her, you're taking your time, which sounds to be needed. She won't be wasted. She is only six, for goodness sake - only a baby - who has had a late start anyway, so is at the stage of a younger horse... Let her grow up. Let daughter get used to her and get her confidence back. They are both young, there is no rush. To keep pushing them both will end in a confidence failure on both sides...[/QUOTE]

I agree with totally with what you are saying. We are trying to take it slow despite a lot of people around us telling us that we have bought a dud, that she should be working properly in an outline by now, why aren't we doing competitions and so on and on and on! :(
She is basically at a 4 yo stage = Backed, ridden briefly, turned away for the winter and started again. If it takes another year ok, so it takes another year or even 2. The half passes and shoulder in were tried in one lesson to see what her reaction was and to give her something else to think about. We were astounded when she clicked onto these immediately. It's not something they are concentrating on. The basics are more important but this horse is so switched on except it seems when it comes to canter and when asking for more contact.
This has only just become a real issue this last couple of weeks when we have asked for a bit more. Most of the lessons are spent on walk and trot exercises with the odd canter. Is asking for an outline in canter at this stage too much? When they didn't ask for more contact/outline in canter, she would canter without a tantrum but did transition with her nose in the air for a few paces/ half a circle before relaxing into a nice canter.
Daughter has been doing a lot more ground work with her, has been out hacking with her on the beach and just generally walking her out in hand to try and gain more trust from her.

From a mother's point of view it's frightening when B throws a tantrum but I'm not only aware of my daughter I'm also trying to figure why?
I am by no means an expert but am willing to learn from other's experience.
 
all the work in walk and trot will help with her balance and strength overall, the better they are the better the canter should come, when the other issues have been checked, could she be regularly lunged working on the transitions particularly the canter ones! lol.
Can you work her in a field on a massssivvve circle, so large she may not even know its a circle, I used to go round and round the edge of on of the fields at the farm cantering and extending up the long sides and back to working canter at the short sides, so it was a game. And then sneak a bit smaller with the circle.
The youngster with the canter issue has always been better on grass than on a surface, don't know why.
I did the canter of his back where possible to make it easier for him
 
micramadam said:
The half passes and shoulder in were tried in one lesson to see what her reaction was and to give her something else to think about. We were astounded when she clicked onto these immediately.
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I would again wonder whether she had been taught these in the past if she could do them stright away! I also would be astonished if a very green youngster, previoulsy only ridden forward on a long rein by a junior rider who has probably not taught these movements to a youngster before (if she has sorry) could understand the aids for these movements and have the collection and balance to step under herself properly and do them stright off. Which would suggest she has been ridden harder than you have led to believe which to me means someone has had these problems before you. Sorry to sound suspicious but its what happened to me.
 
Not necessarily, my TB could do basic lateral work almost instantly and I know for a fact she wouldn't have been taught it before I got her (ex racehorse)
 
mjcssjw2 said:
all the work in walk and trot will help with her balance and strength overall, the better they are the better the canter should come, when the other issues have been checked, could she be regularly lunged working on the transitions particularly the canter ones! lol.
Can you work her in a field on a massssivvve circle, so large she may not even know its a circle, I used to go round and round the edge of on of the fields at the farm cantering and extending up the long sides and back to working canter at the short sides, so it was a game. And then sneak a bit smaller with the circle.
The youngster with the canter issue has always been better on grass than on a surface, don't know why.
I did the canter of his back where possible to make it easier for him
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Worth a try. I'll see if she'll get back on to go for a hack on the beach where she can try this. We're not allowed to ride in the fields unfortunately and there is very little common ground in the area. Ground being at a premium over here.:D
 
Hollycatt said:
I would again wonder whether she had been taught these in the past if she could do them stright away! I also would be astonished if a very green youngster, previoulsy only ridden forward on a long rein by a junior rider who has probably not taught these movements to a youngster before (if she has sorry) could understand the aids for these movements and have the collection and balance to step under herself properly and do them stright off. Which would suggest she has been ridden harder than you have led to believe which to me means someone has had these problems before you. Sorry to sound suspicious but its what happened to me.
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Hollycatt I hear what you are saying and no offence taken. Daughter trained her 14.2hh Fjord up to advanced level, admittedly not a young horse but had not been trained to this level and was regularly competing and winning at medium level (affiliated). She had 2 points needed to start competing at advanced when Fjord did his DDFT in and put an end to that. Just in case you're wondering, we do still have him.
Yes, it may be possible and is something we haven't ruled out. That is why one of the possibilities is is to completely restart her.
 
Just one thing consider getting her hind suspensories scanned. I know of a very similar situation - super moving young dressage horse started this sort of behaviour which was intermittent at first then deteriorated. It could be the transition into canter just puts on extra pressure and aggravates it. I hope it isn't but worth a check.
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Not necessarily, my TB could do basic lateral work almost instantly and I know for a fact she wouldn't have been taught it before I got her (ex racehorse)
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This isn't basic lateral work though is it? To me basic lateral work is leg yielding and getting the horse to understand how to move away from the leg. A couple of steps moving away from the leg, going in the direction you intend, yes, youngsters will show that, but that wasn't the impression OP gave. OP's daughter is a dressage rider. By half pass and shoulder in I take it to mean a half pass and shoulder in with correct bend, working towards developing collection and stepping under in balance. This is a very different from a few baby steps in the right direction for these movements. If OP did mean a few baby steps then fair enough you are correct, but that wan't as I read it as OP would not be astounded by this.

Op's horse is gorgeous and as I said before her daughter is a lovely rider. Monday is not that far off. Hopefully OP will get some answers :)
 
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Sorry not read all the posted replies so apologies if it has already been mentioned.

But have you thought about high suspensory damage (from my experience turned a lovely sweet willing horse into a horse that was classed as 'dangerous' by professionals). This can sometimes start to only show when the horse is asked for more collection and canter work as more strain is put below the hocks. Has your horse ever shown any signs of bi lateral lameness to any degree?

For such a talented horse would certainly get the usual teeth, saddle, back checks done but would also speak to your vet and get them out too to do a full diagnostic work up if they feel there could be something underlying there.

Apologies if I this has been mentioned before and good luck
 
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