Explosive and dangerous and LONG!

Hollycatt said:
This isn't basic lateral work though is it? To me basic lateral work is leg yielding and getting the horse to understand how to move away from the leg. A couple of steps moving away from the leg, going in the direction you intend, yes, youngsters will show that, but that wasn't the impression OP gave. OP's daughter is a dressage rider. By half pass and shoulder in I take it to mean a half pass and shoulder in with correct bend, working towards developing collection and stepping under in balance. This is a very different from a few baby steps in the right direction for these movements. If OP did mean a few baby steps then fair enough you are correct, but that wan't as I read it as OP would not be astounded by this.

Op's horse is gorgeous and as I said before her daughter is a lovely rider. Monday is not that far off. Hopefully OP will get some answers :)
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I appreciate that, I read it as she asked to see what would happen and some sideways steps were the result :)
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
I appreciate that, I read it as she asked to see what would happen and some sideways steps were the result :)
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We all read things according to our own experiences I think :) I once saw an Olympic rider get on a friends horse and it was totally amazing what she could get the horse to do that my friend (riding PSG) could not even think of. Just in terms of the balance and timing of the aids. I think I am getting too cynical in my old age :D
 
Two things. I would also get her hind suspensories and sacroiliac looked at as either one of these can cause lack of ability to sit and carry.
If this is fine then (dont shoot me) then maybe try using some very loose ish draw reins to help her gain confidence and balance her huge canter. We have a hannovarian with a very similar problem and we used the draw reins, not to haul him on the contact but to show him the way.
 
I don't think there is a Dutch Warmblood I know that hasn't had suspensory trouble.

Of course this is what happens when you use the wrong type of horse for dressage.

This is why people struggle, and resort to harsh methods.

If you want a cart pulling use a Warmblood, but dressage is a Spanish or Portuguese job.
 
Pale Rider said:
I don't think there is a Dutch Warmblood I know that hasn't had suspensory trouble.

Of course this is what happens when you use the wrong type of horse for dressage.

This is why people struggle, and resort to harsh methods.

If you want a cart pulling use a Warmblood, but dressage is a Spanish or Portuguese job.
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My dutch mare never had suspensory issues! Had her from 3, shes not mine now but I know who has her! I think she is 12/13 now! No issues! Jumped up to 1.20 tracks
 
Like so many horses she has been pushed too hard too young . Sorry to say you have along a slow road ahead to get her to forget all unhappiness when being schooled. i would forget schhol work and hack her out on a loose rein for 6 months , then slowly introduce schoolwork. Many warmbloods look more mature than they actually are , and need slow work to develop physically . mentaly they either submit to early training - or dont, esp the sensitive types - they will have real problems and resentments towards the rider.
But if rehab work is slow and consistent and you know what youare doing , they can come right.[ One we worrked on is now ,2yrs later, rebacked,hacked out and now back in arena winning BD tests- it took about a yr to get him right]
 
Pale Rider said:
Warmbloods are carriage horses, basically, bred to push into a harness. This is why they are more comfy on the forehand.[/QUOTE

Sorry Pale Rider but we'll have to agree to disagree.
There are 3 sections in the KWPN studbook, Harness horses, jumping horses and dressage horses. There are quite a few crosses between the jumping section and the dressage section but it is frowned upon to cross either of these 2 with the harness section and that is putting it mildly! In B's bloodline there is absolutley no harness blood, in fact, she has some very very good German blood.
The KWPN harness horse also looks and moves very differently to the other 2 sections.
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Pale Rider said:
Warmbloods are carriage horses, basically, bred to push into a harness. This is why they are more comfy on the forehand.
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I think you're getting mixed up... thats what all horses were bred for. :D Now with atleast 30/40 years of KWPN/Oldenburg/etc. breeding, most warmbloods are built uphill, naturally carrying weight on the hindquarters. Breitlingh naturally has a horizontal balance, she doesn't fall onto the forehand. When riding, she still easily picks up the horizontal balance and I can place her very easily on the hindquarters. I don't even has to ask for more contact to do it. I just sit deeper in the saddle and voila.

Thanks everyone for thinking along with us. It's very much appreciated!
 
My first guess would be pop another rider on and see what happens, however Four Seasons is a really balanced, sensitive rider and I don't think she is doing anything to provoke this reaction in the mare.

I think you are left with two options:
- assume there is some pain there and keep looking for the cause until you have eliminated most likely sources (maybe do a painkiller trial when you have eliminated ulcers)
- then accept it's a temperament issue and decide whether it is best addressed by meeting it head on (ask the instructor to work her through it) or it is best addressed by taking off all the pressure, e.g. hacking her only for 6 months. Which approach might work depends entirely on the horse's temperament, some might explode completely with more pressure, some may take the mick more with less pressure.

Good luck with her, she's a stunning horse and I am sure things will work out!
 
I wouldn't panic until you've had her seen by the saddler and osteo as that would be my first thought. My horse I've had for years, always beautifully behaved - about 2 years ago he started acting a bit odd sometimes when ridden like grinding to a halt for no reason and acting slightly nappy but then would be fine agian, it quickly got worse until as soon as I got on he began to rear. I got a saddler out who told me his saddle didn't fit him at all and the original saddler should have been shot! (not just width but length of the seat etc.). I got him a new properly fitting saddle and also had the osteo out who found he was stiff down one side due to the saddle, so she treated him. As soon as these things were done, literally the very next day he was back to normal again! So I would definately rule these two things out first, they can make a lovely horse seemingly turn into a loony so quick and yet are so easily dealt with.
 
I'd just like to thank you all for taking the time to read this and post advice. This is H&H at it's best!:)

Saddler has been out today and saddle has been reflocked. She hasn't has this saddle very long. We got it fitted just after we started with the new instructress in April. It seems to have helped a little bit we managed to get a canter transition without a tantrum or panic. :D But the problem is still there.
Today she completely ignored the contact on the left rein and instead held the right rein even more when the left rein was used. Legs couldn't be applied when asking for a bend, B completely blocked this. When she is ridden long and low she is completely relaxed and can be ridden with the reins on the buckle. When she is ridden in a normal outline it seems that she pushes her neck upwards and her back downwards ending up with her nose in the air completely blocking the contact.
When she was corrected using the outside rein cue rear.
Does this make sense, trying to describe what my daughter has told me is happening.

This is making me lean more towards a teeth and or neck problem.
We have been given a name and contact number for another EDT who also happens to be a vet at a clinic and comes highly recommended.
We will wait to see what the Osteopath says on Monday and then take it from there.
It's like having 2 horses. Not ridden = Fantastic sweet and loving mare. Ridden - the devil in disguise.

Apple gebak and cappucinos for all who have followed this so far, or I can pop over the border and get some Belgium Chocolate!
 
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I know sod all about dressage training! But I have come across horses who object to french link bits. The plate can dig in and we suspected one particular horse was possibly getting pinched at times.

If you are using a conventional french link, how about swapping it for a peanut link? Probably make no difference, but it's an easy thing to try.

Good luck, it's damn frustrating when you know what you've got, but you just can't get at it!
 
What is she like cantering loose or on the lunge?! I would be questioning hind suspensories as well and would be inclined to go down the road of a vet work up. She is a super mare....speed bumps like this are part of the journey!!
 
OP - I am not a dressage rider and I have no experience of horses at any decent level, but I have just wanted the videos. My mare was going lovely in walk and trot - stretching down, long loose strides and starting to show some lovely work. But when we went into canter, she did exactly the same as yours did in the second vid - mine also involved some gymnastic broncing. It was eventually discovered that she had hind limb suspensory ligament issues... I do hope this isn't the case for you, but wanted to make you aware. Good luck, I hope you get it sorted out.
 
In hand and lunge work with pessoa and or side reins is no problem . She's a delight to work with on the ground. Completely relaxed in all gaits and takes up a very nice outline all by herself!

We will explore the suspensory ligament option if everything else is clear. What was the treatment and outcome?
 
Sounds like a possible back issue - kissing spine/spinal arthritis/SI injury. My mare who has a similar story has just been diagnosed with all three
 
micramadam said:
In hand and lunge work with pessoa and or side reins is no problem . She's a delight to work with on the ground. Completely relaxed in all gaits and takes up a very nice outline all by herself!

We will explore the suspensory ligament option if everything else is clear. What was the treatment and outcome?
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If ok on the lunge etc then I would def be going vet route for a work up. However when you have osteo booked prob no harm to get daughter looked at as well as horse...from videos she looks like a balanced straight rider but no harm in having a check and see is it something she is causing. If mare was mine I would be bringing in vet before osteo though
 
You can test for ulcers without scoping. Go to Tesco and buy some of their own brand ranitidine, off-the-shelf, £2.63 a packet of 12. This is a drug used in horses to treat ulcers, but omeprazole (Gastrogard) is preferred these days. Give the horse all 12 in a day, split into as many feeds as you can easily manage. 2 will do but 3 is better and 4 is best.

In 48 hours or less, all the horses I have ever tried it on that I thought might have stomach issues showed changes. If you get any changes, then it would be worth paying to have her scoped if she is insured.

Be aware though, that ranitidine is a general gut sedative and that it can calm an irritable gut and hindgut ulcers, neither of which will show on a stomach scoping. Also be aware that you need ten times as much to actually cure ulcers and that omeprazole is a much better drug for curing them because it is active for a much longer period.

Good luck.
 
Do not despair!
This is probably quite simple, she is a 6yr old horse with the training of a 4yr old.
A 4yr old is physically immature and therefore a big unbalanced canter will improve as time goes on with correct training.
Your 6yr old is physically much more mature but still unbalanced in a big canter, therefore it is harder to change her way of going because she is physically stronger in the wrong balance. (hope this is making sense!)
She is also hot, possibly a little hot headed if she's anything like the youngsters of similar breeding that I produce at work, so I imagine the rearing/leaping is her way of saying 'i don't want to, its hard' rather than she's in pain. she probably feels she needs to canter quite fast to be able to maintain it as well?

So to summarise, you have a vicious circle - unbalanced and not enough muscle so struggles to take more weight behind, but this won't improve until she is stronger! She must start to work more into the contact though otherwise you are compounding the problem - until she starts to take more weight behind she won't start to build those muscles!

Quite persistance is the key :)
 
Pale Rider said:
I don't think there is a Dutch Warmblood I know that hasn't had suspensory trouble.

Of course this is what happens when you use the wrong type of horse for dressage.

This is why people struggle, and resort to harsh methods.

If you want a cart pulling use a Warmblood, but dressage is a Spanish or Portuguese job.
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You are so out of date it made me laugh out loud :D

I haven't come across a Dutch Warmblood that does have suspensory trouble.

And if you tried to get my uphill, sat-on-his-hocks young German WB to pull a carriage on his forehand he'd be completely incapable :)
 
If you rule out all the possible veterinary options and it's still happening, my guess is that she's just not mature enough yet to do the sort of work you're after.

The girl who currently has my warmblood on loan (who can also be a madam, but luckily doesn't rear) has another warmblood mare who she bought as an unbroken youngster and has been bringing on for around two years by now. Their journey has been very much one step forward, two back with the mare regularly throwing rearing fits in the same way as you describe. She too is a sympathetic rider, and went down the vet route to no avail.

She's still working hard with her - has had to search far and wide to find an instructor who didn't simply advise her to sell the mare! - and turns the mare away for short periods when things start getting fraught to let the mare relax and simply take on board the new information.

Sometimes it feels like she's getting nowhere, but when we watch the videos from two years ago it's like looking at a different horse.

So, in summary, the answer may simply be 'patience' :)

Good luck. x
 
We had a TB who worked beautifully in the school in walk & trot but asked to canter & he exploded, He got a full vet work up by a vet very experienced in orthopedics. He suspected his back & he went in for scintogrophy which surprised us by showing hot spots in his stifle. Arthroscopy was done which showed a small tear in his cruciate ligament. 3 months of box rest and injections in his joint and he still didn't come sound. He was an exracer and vet suspected an old racing injury, he was fine in occasional work but when his work increased he just found it too painful.
I personally would get the advice of a good horse vet, we spent a fortune on regular mctimoney sessions thinking it was muscular as he wasn't obviously lame. We also changed instructors, even livery yard for a better school as original yard had a smaller school.
Good luck, I know how frustrating it is.
 
cptrayes said:
. Go to Tesco
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I would love to go to Tesco or any decent English supermarket but we live 40KM south of Rotterdam on one of the islands and our nearest supermarket is not much bigger than a corner shop. I'm the one you find ooohing and aahing in the aisles of an English supermarket because of the choice and price and with the very strange concoction of stuff in my shopping trolley.:p
 
micramadam said:
I would love to go to Tesco or any decent English supermarket but we live 40KM south of Rotterdam on one of the islands and our nearest supermarket is not much bigger than a corner shop. I'm the one you find ooohing and aahing in the aisles of an English supermarket because of the choice and price and with the very strange concoction of stuff in my shopping trolley.:p
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Ha ha this is also me. We have Tesco here but it has totally different foods from the UK. And the chemists sell NOTHING. Not even basics like immodium :eek:

I really hope it all works out, and I am sure it will :) I once heard of a good horse vet that was also a dressage rider (at advanced level). Not sure if she was in Denmark or Holland. Someone like that would be ideal if you could get her as I think often another dressage rider can understand the problem from more angles than just a normal vet that doesn't ride, if that makes sense.
 
Hmm, if she is ok on the lunge then you would almost write off the mouth issue. Do you always ride her in a dressage saddle? If so I would try her in a gp /jump saddle with shorter stirrups. Come off her back in a light seat at allow her to find a correct canter rythym first with no weight on her back before sitting on het and asking for a contact.
 
Mm, don't panic.
I think you are doing the right thing. Check out the physical, saddle, back, teeth, ulcers. If not that is likely to be a case of teenage tantrums and/or her lack of work to date and greenness, being unbalanced and finding it hard. In which case you need to persevere, with help from your trainer. She will eventually get stronger and learn to balance herself. She is lovely and I'm sure its just perseverance and time.
 
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