Explosive and dangerous and LONG!

[Pale Rider]

cptrayes

Quote de Pale Rider I don't think there is a Dutch Warmblood I know that hasn't had suspensory trouble.

Of course this is what happens when you use the wrong type of horse for dressage.

This is why people struggle, and resort to harsh methods.

If you want a cart pulling use a Warmblood, but dressage is a Spanish or Portuguese job.

You are so out of date it made me laugh out loud

I haven't come across a Dutch Warmblood that does have suspensory trouble.

And if you tried to get my uphill, sat-on-his-hocks young German WB to pull a carriage on his forehand he'd be completely incapable

I probably am out of date CP. but, I am older than the stud book for these newfangled horses, lol.

I am happy to announce a neighbour has just spent 10k on suspensory ligaments on their newly imported DW.

Out of date I may be but I know that you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

 

[Hollycatt]

cptrayes

Out of date I may be but I know that you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

This is why I DO ride warmbloods for dressage. For me they are a silk purse for dressage People like Carl Hester actually agree and ride them too. I didn't like the Iberian horses I have rode. Maybe I never rode enough to be respesentative, but there you go. I would like to ride more Iberian horses and change my mind! They are amazing horses and I admire them very much Just not for me. My DWB never had suspensory problems and I am sorry your friend didn't get a decent vetting before the horse they purchased came over from Holland. Strange they never took your advice about horses/warmbloods etc etc though. Seems like they don't respect your opinion. How odd.

 

[Pale Rider]

Holly, we each have to plow our own furrow, you with your WB, will be more successful than I in that endeavour, lol.

 

[Booboos]

This is a long shot, but I had a horse with similar behaviour only when ridden but not quite as extreme and it turned out to be stifle OCD. The interesting thing is that he was completely lame behind but billaterally so no one could see it (and I mean not just trainers, judges but also vets). Three vets were stood there looking at him and no one saw the lamenes until he was nerve blocked. Just something to keep in mind because sometimes what feels like a neck problem comes from the stifles.

 

[cptrayes]

I would love to go to Tesco or any decent English supermarket but we live 40KM south of Rotterdam on one of the islands and our nearest supermarket is not much bigger than a corner shop. I'm the one you find ooohing and aahing in the aisles of an English supermarket because of the choice and price and with the very strange concoction of stuff in my shopping trolley.

ah, I see your problem

ranitidine is available on eBay. Omeprazole (gastrogard's active ingredient) is availale online direct from Abler,the manufacturer, if it is legal for you to import it?

 

[cptrayes]

I probably am out of date CP. but, I am older than the stud book for these newfangled horses, lol.

I doubt it. I have four generations of his pedigree in his passport and I'm sure I could go back a lot further if I could be bothered.

Out of date I may be but I know that you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Which is exactly why I paid to get a German warmblood who has proven blood lines for elite dressage. They are awesome to ride. Much better than the Iberian horse I owned and willingly gave away (he was National Iberian Novice Dressage Champion, not some runt). Unfortunately I lost my Dutch Warmblood to wobblers but he reached ten, worked hard to Advanced Medium, and hunted, with not a hint of suspensory problems. Your generalisation that modern day warmbloods are more physically suited to pull a cart than do dressage is so absurd as to make you look a bit ridiculous PH.

 

[katastrophykat]

Pale Rider- I spend most of my life making my carriage horse and pony sit on their arses and push from behind- I'd be mortified if anyone suggested that they were on their forehand...

I suspect you may be confusing carriage driving with cart pulling- the former done with panache and style, with competition ponies and carriage horses in a wide variety of shapes and sizes and the latter done for working purposes with heavy horses and cobs.

I'm also wondering if you're thinking of gelderlanders... One of the most uphill breeds I've ever met...?!



Sorry MM and four...

Fingers crossed for a better dentist and a simple answer...

 

[micramadam]

I doubt it. I have four generations of his pedigree in his passport and I'm sure I could go back a lot further if I could be bothered.

My Grey mare is also KWPN and I can trace her bloodlines back to 1784!
Haven't tried to trace B's bloodline back but may have a look now.

Pale rider please follow this link to find out about a KWPN Harness horse as opposed to a dressage horse (it's in English!)
http://www.kwpn.org/site/main/map?guid=537ed2f2-8bd9-11de-ada3-000c299e1a48

Debating whether to take the afternoon off work tomorrow (if they let me at short notice ) or leave the Osteopath in the more than capable hands of my daughter. I like to be there to ask questions and see what's going on.

Will also be ringing the vet/EDT tomorrow to arrange an appointment. Most of my days off this year have been for horse related stuff was hoping to keep a few for 'me' time. Oh well, that's the beauty of having horses.

 

[Letslip]

I would certainly recommend getting the vet out before the back person, as due to compensatory issues the mare may display signs of a bad back and need adjusting but this could just be covering up a much more serious underlying problem.

As your back person has to work under the veterinary act anyway, your vet should be aware that they are coming and I would speak to them regarding the issues you are having as they would probably want to run some diagnostics on her. With such a class mare as you have would want to rule anything medical out first and with the problems when asking for collection hind suspensory damage does spring to mind. But would also get your back person out after the vet has been to help her too, but the vet should always be the first port of call in cases such as this.

 

[micramadam]

Both vet and osteopath have been out.

Osteopath yesterday and found 3 problems. 1 on the back where she was sore from the saddle. The saddle was refitted on Saturday so that problem should go away with time. 2nd was inflammation of the mucous membrane and 3rd was huge amounts of tension round the atlas bone. Osteopath didn't treat B as there was no point before the vet had been.

Vet today who is also a qualified dentist and also has his own horses and clinic.
B had to be sedated so he could throughly check her mouth. He found 2 problems which could be, but most likely not, the cause of the problems we arfe experiencing. Even though we had the dentist ou only end of July, on the left hand side she had a tooth that was very sharp and pointy which he sorted. She also had peridonitis as the result of one tooth not being quite right and food getting in the gap between the 2 tooth, rotting and causing inflammation of the gum. That's now also been sorted so it doesn't happen again.

He also gave her a clinical exam and found nothing that would indicate that further investigation was needed on her back or in her hind legs - he ruled out suspensory ligament problems.
What he did say was that if she was still behaving the same in 2 weeks time, then he would investigate further.
He would like us to lunge her with double lines without a bit for the 1st week and then the 2nd week with the bit in and then ride. My daughter has to build the trust up between them again and she can do this while B is healing from the sore places caused by the saddle and the dental work. So lots of groundwork and pampering sessions for B coming up.
Osteopath is coming out to work on the atlas problem so we'll see if that helps as well.

Watch this space for updates as I'll keep updating. This information may help someone else with similar problems.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Thanks for the update. It all sounds pretty positive, I do hope that she is feeling better soon.

As you say, your experience may well help someone else. That is a great strength of HHO imo.

 

[Booboos]

In a sense it is good the vet found a couple of small problems as this may be your answer. Some horses are very sensitive and react to the slightest thing so it could well be the teeth that were upsetting her. Hope it all gets better from now on!

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't think there is a Dutch Warmblood I know that hasn't had suspensory trouble.

Of course this is what happens when you use the wrong type of horse for dressage.

This is why people struggle, and resort to harsh methods.

If you want a cart pulling use a Warmblood, but dressage is a Spanish or Portuguese job.

I have never had DWD with suspensory issues and how can a horse be the wrong sort for dressage , dressage just means training all horses can be trained .
And i am laughing at your comments as my friends Portuguese horse has had awful suspensory issues so it did not work in that case.
Too much of the wrong sort of work causes this sort of suspensory issues and all breeds will suffer put in the same sort of situation.

 

[MrsMozartletoe]

Sorry, it's sounding to me like hind suspensories could be the issue to some degree. The action you're describing, added to the fact that it happens in the school (deeper surface and more collection required), is very like the two horses I've known with damaged suspensory ligaments.

 

[katastrophykat]

He also gave her a clinical exam and found nothing that would indicate that further investigation was needed on her back or in her hind legs - he ruled out suspensory ligament problems.
What he did say was that if she was still behaving the same in 2 weeks time, then he would investigate further.

oh good- no need to sell all your lovely warmbloods and go buy a spanish horse yet then!

glad to hear it all sounds 'niggly' (Ru had the exact same problem with his teeth)

fingers firmly crossed xx

 

[micramadam]

Yes Kat, she is mega sensitive and when in pain makes damn sure you know about it. Not at all like Ruby who will work through everything.
I think I'd rather have a horse that shows pain immediately as then you can get things sorted a lot quicker.

Don't be surprised if Iive turned grey next time you see me.

 

[digitalangel]

cptrayes

Quote de Pale Rider I don't think there is a Dutch Warmblood I know that hasn't had suspensory trouble.

Of course this is what happens when you use the wrong type of horse for dressage.

This is why people struggle, and resort to harsh methods.

If you want a cart pulling use a Warmblood, but dressage is a Spanish or Portuguese job.

You are so out of date it made me laugh out loud

I haven't come across a Dutch Warmblood that does have suspensory trouble.

And if you tried to get my uphill, sat-on-his-hocks young German WB to pull a carriage on his forehand he'd be completely incapable

I probably am out of date CP. but, I am older than the stud book for these newfangled horses, lol.

I am happy to announce a neighbour has just spent 10k on suspensory ligaments on their newly imported DW.

Out of date I may be but I know that you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Are you on crack?

Here is my 21 year old 'cart pulling' KWPN schooling with no suspensory issues whatsoever:

yep definitely not built for dressage

As for the OP sounds like youre on the right track! i have 3 KWPN horses, they can be quite tricky - best to rule out the usual suspects and go from there. Perhaps you can try a bute test as well.

 

[Pale Rider]

Crack, lol.

I'm just fascinated by the way horses are produced in some areas. The modern DW, is a strange one I reckon.

Cptrayes is talking about German horses I think. Totally different protocol to the Dutch.

The DW foundation types are now almost non existant.

During the 19th century several regional and local studbook organizations bred heavier horses specifically for working the clay soil of the north (Groningen).

On the sandy soil of the middle Netherlands (Gelderland) a more noble and spirited horse was popular; a horse with faster action and good stamina.

Both types were regularly crossed and in 1969 these two organizations were combined into the national studbook organization WPN, which received the "Royal" designation from Queen Beatrix in 1988.

By my reckoning the modern DW was produced, officially in 1969 only 43 yrs ago. There has been a wealth of other breeds brought into the mix in an attempt to produce this sport horse.

One could argue that it is this horses unsuitablity in the dressage world which has lead to the grotesque Rolkur training methods.

These horses with their mouths strapped tightly shut, harsh bits and brutal looking riders makes me feel they would be better off doing something else.

 

[digitalangel]

I dont see the point of the history lesson you just gave us?

My mare is a foundation type, actually. Offically she is in the TP studbook, and has competed regularly in dressage and has had no rollkur applied to her whatsoever - its not needed as she finds it easy to move from behind into a correct frame. Shes ridden in a snaffle and never has her nose taped shut.


I find your ignorance of the breed quite disturbing and your generalisations pretty baseless.

 

[matt_m]

Why do you mention a stronger bit...if anything I'd be looking at a kinder bit if she reacts badly to more contact. Perhaps something like a french link sweet iron snaffle or similar.

 

[pootleperkin]

I really couldn't label the way Carl Hester rode at the Olympic as 'brutal', or a good number of the other riders......

 

[micramadam]

Why do you mention a stronger bit...if anything I'd be looking at a kinder bit if she reacts badly to more contact. Perhaps something like a french link sweet iron snaffle or similar.

When I said stronger bit I really meant a different bit meaning something softer or thicker or thinner not harsher. Just didn't explain right.
Resorting to a stonger bit is not solving the problem and I hate to see horses in anything other than a snaffle.

Pale Rider,
You are quite welcome to come and try my horses in front of a cart - it's your funeral and believe me it would be!

 

[Four Seasons]

Pale Rider, Rollkur is a trainingmethod to lengthen the horses neck and back muscles, not to controle it (but you do have some weird riders that use it for that). The Groninger en Gelderlander still exsist and are both still a part of the studbook. They are regulary mixed with the modern KWPN horses. Do some proper research before being a horse-racist. If you a true horselover, then you accept that every horse is different. Most of the physical problems that horses (with that I mean EVERY horse breed) have these days are because the owner lacks the knowledge to train them properly or it just too lazy to want to train them properly. So every the most stockiest Welsh Cob can have issues.

Now stop ruining the thread with your horsey racism and if you want to continue debating, make your own thread.

 

[showpony]

Well said - such bloody narrow mindedness.. I experience "Horsey Racism on a regular basis because shock horror I own a Skewbald!

Pale Rider, Rollkur is a trainingmethod to lengthen the horses neck and back muscles, not to controle it (but you do have some weird riders that use it for that). The Groninger en Gelderlander still exsist and are both still a part of the studbook. They are regulary mixed with the modern KWPN horses. Do some proper research before being a horse-racist. If you a true horselover, then you accept that every horse is different. Most of the physical problems that horses (with that I mean EVERY horse breed) have these days are because the owner lacks the knowledge to train them properly or it just too lazy to want to train them properly. So every the most stockiest Welsh Cob can have issues.

Now stop ruining the thread with your horsey racism and if you want to continue debating, make your own thread.

 

[Pale Rider]

Wasn't going to bother with this any more, but, seeing as how four seasons has had a go, I'll respond.
I'm not what you choose to call a 'horsy racist', but I don't think it's a good idea to try and force horses designed for one purpose, to perform another, it cannot be done without either being unethical toward the horse or the discipline.
This argument has gone on for a long time, and each side has appeared to gain and lose ground as it has progressed.
For me the commentary at the recent Olympics said a lot, when they said that the more natural approach of the British appeared more favourable to the judges than the forced approach of the Dutch and German.
The rise of Modern Dressage I feel is due to the use of Warmblood horses as favoured by some nations albeit despite their limitations over what many would see as more suitable breeds.
Personally, I feel the dye is cast, but, I would like to see a little more honesty around the capabilities of some of the breeds and perhaps horses would not be tasked with things impossible for them.
My views are clearly not popular, for which I care not a jot, but I won't change.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flBGjpuL4qo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I think this explains better than I can what I mean.

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes is talking about German horses I think. Totally different protocol to the Dutch.

No, warmbloods which are bred for showjumping and dressage, which are in no ways designed to pull carts. I have had one Dutch and one German. Neither would do justice to a cart.

One could argue that it is this horses unsuitablity in the dressage world which has lead to the grotesque Rolkur training methods.

PR you really should shut up you know ? You simply do not know what you are talking about with modern showjumper and dressage breeding. My current dressage youngster is superbly bred to provide the characteristics which make him find dressage training very, very easy and he is progressing at a rate of knots.

The Iberian horses which you favour are also being changed to provide decent extension so that they can compete against modern dressage warmbloods. They'll never compete against them at SJ or eventing until they are unrecognisable as Iberian.

These horses with their mouths strapped tightly shut, harsh bits and brutal looking riders makes me feel they would be better off doing something else.

I do none of that with my horses. I don't need to, they are bred for their job. You are woefully, woefully out of date with regard to warmblood breeding.

 

[pootleperkin]

I don't agree Pale Rider - I have a yen for both WBs and Iberian type horses (have owned both), but for me, what you are arguing about is not the breed of horse, but style of riding.

For example, Sylvia Loch's classical riding club don't all ride Luso or Pre horses - warmbloods (as well as others) are accepted into the fold too. The WB is more designed for the way modern dreassage is going, but modern dressage per se, as seen from our riders at the Olympics, does not have to be forced or divorced from classical dressage. Yes the Iberian breeds find the collected work very easy, but WBs find the extended work easy - both are required in the modern dressage horse and the ongoing breeding of both types will eventually relect that. I'm not sure what you think is 'impossible' for a WB to do that an Iberian can do? I have to say that I thought Valegro looked incredibly comfortable in his collected work at Greenwich and tbh, he is so round and rubber ball like, why wouldn't he?

(Excuse me if anyone thinks I am talking out of my b**t, as have just been to beery pub quiz )

 

[Four Seasons]

Pale Rider, your really making yourself looks like a fool. First you say Warmbloods are cart horses and then you change the subject to Classical vs Modern Dressage????? Thats not about breeds, that riding style/method. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with a breeds purpose. If your bothered by people's riding method, stop whining about mine, because I ride classical en my teacher is a classical rider.

And to show you the difference.....

Breeds bred and have the build to pull a cart

And the specially bred KWPN harness horse

And now the warmbloods, bred to do showjumping/eventing/dressage.

 

[tasel]

Might have to do with the breeding. My mare is related to your horse... in probably more than just one instance, and she's just like this. She's now 7, and is calmer than when she was younger (had her since she was 2.5). She was terrible between the ages of 4-6! Once, she was eager to get out of the school (where she was put while I mucked out her stable), so when I finally did take her out 2 minutes later than she wanted, she reared. I didn't react to it, so she came back to her senses a few seconds later. It was like having some angst-ridden teenager about who always had an opinion on something (and you do NOT want to sit on an angst-ridden teenager, lol). Despite this, she has always been really intelligent, and learned fast... which can also be a negative thing, because she learns both good and bad things fast!

Mind you, my mare was injured for MOST of that time, so wasn't ridden much, but she had serious mood swings. Sometimes, she was good as gold, other times she was ready to rodeo and bronc big time. She has to be brought back to work now, and I've been warned she will be challenging. Thing is... she still has mood swings, but is a lot more consistent than before. I'm hoping she will eventually grow out of it.

 

[Four Seasons]

Oh and Pale Rider, just because you've had a nasty experience with a warrmblood, doesn't mean all of the 1.346.958 warmbloods out there are bad, mean, have to be ridden by using Rollkur and get injured all the time.
I don't like the choppiness of the Spanish breeds walk, trot and canter. But I don't say that their crap at extending, just because I don't like their paces.

Sour puss.

@ tasel
May I ask what breeding your horse is?