Explosive behaviour from 4yo... opinions, please?

Breez

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Please bear with me, as this may be long - if you're short of time just read the final paragraph :) Any replies appreciated.

I've recently brought home a 4yo gelding (nearly 4 weeks ago). He's a very sweet chap, very friendly, sociable, loves both people and horses. He was sent to a professional breaker in February by his previous owner, and was fully broken to a point of walk, trot and canter on both reins. He's also been hacked down quiet lanes on his own, but hasn't been worked since returning from the breaker's (May this year).

We gave him a couple of weeks to settle, then started groundwork with him. We established that he was fine with tack, he was clued up in walk and trot on the lunge, and he was fine when long reined around the school. Stirrups were swung, saddles were banged, plenty of desensitising stuff done and he was golden. He was leant over (full body weight), and still no issues. Great.

So, Friday before last (18th) we decided to take it to the next step and sit a rider on him (myself). My weight had barely touched the saddle when he freaked, took off, and full rodeo-style bronked the length of an olympic sized school. I attempted to sit it, and ended up hitting the deck at the top end, flat on my back. After regaining the use of my lungs(!), I got on again, very slowly, like you would first backing. He was unsure, but didn't lose it. We left it there.

We continued the sitting-on work every other day from there on, very slowly, but gradually increasing the time sat on him. Plenty of reassurance given by a friend on the ground. He began to relax as the week went on, and by last Sunday (27th) he was offering a very relaxed walk forwards, so we did a few strides and left there. On Monday he offered more, so we walked around the school with a rider - he didn't put a foot wrong. He then had a day off.

Today we went to pick up where we left off. Mounted in the same fashion, slowly, only the minute my weight touched the saddle he freaked again. Reared vertically, and took off bronking. Having hurt myself the first time I slid off as he went, and watched the mid-air acrobatics from the ground. He bombed round the school for a couple of circuits, then stopped & relaxed. He was happy to stand next to the mounting block and with light weight leant over him (sleepy eyes, not a care in the world), but the minute more weight was applied we had a similar response - rearing and shooting forwards. The panic subsided very quickly every time, and to look at him in his stable afterwards you'd be none the wiser.

Now, my question - what would be your first port of call? Teeth have been checked and are fine, back will be checked ASAP (although he's not reluctant to be saddled, and shows no reaction to having finger pressure applied to his back), saddle is a Solution saddle so there is nothing to pinch. He's a well built 15.2, I'm 5'6 and 10st. I'm struggling to wrap my head around how he can be so well behaved (and verging lazy!) for the past few days; he'd relaxed, he was accepting it all like a pro, and he was doing really well. Suddenly we've hit another (bigger) explosion when nothing has changed, and I can't quite fathom it? I've backed before, I've broken before, every youngster I've done up until now has either been relaxed, or nervous. Never relaxed with episodes of panic. I've spoken to the professional responsible for breaking him, she claims he never misbehaved when with her, however she was particularly cagey in regards to giving information on what she'd done with him. He's also been known to panic when tied up (no tack / riding type stuff in sight).

Thoughts / opinions appreciated? Thank you.
 
I would put money on the professional being a liar (whoops, sorry, perhaps 'economical with the full facts'.) And we wonder why the owner didn't ride him once he was home??

I would put money on him having had a BAD fright during breaking. He's getting over it - but it creeps up on him for some unknown cause (it's amazing what can freak out a horse!) If I'm right, the answer is to start him each day like a new breaker - if he is tense and re-active, go back a step (or 3) and just lunge. See how it progresses and whether the days he 'freaks out' get further apart.

There are other possible causes (rather nasty ones, like a brain tumour) but far less likely!
 
Bonkers2 - Bought as fully broken (I asked at time of purchase if they meant backed, I was told "No, fully broken"). He was sold from field due to owner's (genuine) ill health - really lovely people who want him returned to them should he not be right, however I'm curious as to others' opinions. Failed breaking, pain response, something else?
 
JanetGeorge - Economical with the truth, I like that term!! There seems to be a bizarre lack of photos of him ridden, when other horses at the same breakers have varying ones available. He wasn't ridden on return due to ill health and daughter's pregnancy. Back to complete basics and play by ear, then?
 
JanetGeorge - Economical with the truth, I like that term!! There seems to be a bizarre lack of photos of him ridden, when other horses at the same breakers have varying ones available. He wasn't ridden on return due to ill health and daughter's pregnancy. Back to complete basics and play by ear, then?

You coud return him - or start again from scratch - depends a bit on how brave you are! What is his breeding??
 
I would put money on the professional being a liar (whoops, sorry, perhaps 'economical with the full facts'.) And we wonder why the owner didn't ride him once he was home??

I would put money on him having had a BAD fright during breaking. He's getting over it - but it creeps up on him for some unknown cause (it's amazing what can freak out a horse!) If I'm right, the answer is to start him each day like a new breaker - if he is tense and re-active, go back a step (or 3) and just lunge. See how it progresses and whether the days he 'freaks out' get further apart.

There are other possible causes (rather nasty ones, like a brain tumour) but far less likely!


This.....

Hope you are able to work through it.
 
You coud return him - or start again from scratch - depends a bit on how brave you are! What is his breeding??

He's a real sweetie, and it seems early days to call quits... but as to bravery, we'll see on that one!! The falls haven't been too horrific as yet. He's PBA.
 
He's a real sweetie, and it seems early days to call quits... but as to bravery, we'll see on that one!! The falls haven't been too horrific as yet. He's PBA.

lol, bet you don't know what the other 'part' is! Worst mannered horse I EVER had was a Cleveland BayxAnglo-Arab! But the hardest to back was a Jazz gelding that someone else had ********* up badly!
 
lol, bet you don't know what the other 'part' is! Worst mannered horse I EVER had was a Cleveland BayxAnglo-Arab! But the hardest to back was a Jazz gelding that someone else had ********* up badly!

lol! I'm beginning to remember why I like untouched youngsters... my pure Arab didn't give me this much trouble! He's majority Arab, the rest is mainly TB and Saddlebred.
 
I bought my 4 year old 4 months ago broken and lightly ridden. I knew the people who'd bred him and I tried him before buying and he was v nice if slightly anxious. Started riding him and he had a total meltdown and dropped me very hard. Hurt me a lot and scared him even more. I found a good trainer with tons of experience with youngsters and went back to the beginning- no point in trying to work out what he had or hadn't done before, the important thing was the horse I had now. Lovely manners and nature but needed to get him past the fright and anxiety. 3 months on we have now just started jumping. I look back and can't quite believe we ever made it to now. The other day my trainer said to me ' I bet this is now the horse you thought you'd bought originally' and it is. If you like him, start him again. If not send him back and start again. Good luck!
 
Thanks Attie, that's reassuring. I'll take a look into local trainers... seems such a shame that somebody has potentially spoilt such a lovely natured boy :( Such is life I guess... I'm glad you and your guy are back on track - fab post!
 
Ironic really isn't it when you buy a young horse already broken to bring on because you don't have time or experience to start one, then you end up having to re-start one with history, so its a much harder job!

I couldn't have done it on my own though so hope you strike lucky like me and find someone sane and sensible to get you both up and going together!
 
Having been through, and still going through this with my 'youngster' (now 5), I would suggest double checking and triple checking the fitting of your saddle.
In addition, get a decent physio /chiro out to check him out before trying a saddle on again.
Mine starting the backing process very much well - I just started it myself and he was fab but, after getting him what I thought would be a suitably wide saddle it all went rather wrong and said saddle caused a very similar and very extreme reaction.. The first signs were subtle - bit of girthiness and nappiness but then he bronced me off twice, second time it hurt and meant a trip to A&E!
After a year of essentially trying to regain his trust (he became very worried about anything going near his back and our mctimoney guy said his back was in spasm), I am now starting over. I have had to have a saddle made as he's so wide but that needs further adjustment (another story!). Hopefully once I'm happy he's happy I will send him away to a friend to re-back as I feel slightly nervous of doing it again to be honest.
The thing is, don't always assume the worst. I had my youngster from 15mths so know his history. I made a mistake and he is much more sensitive than I gave him credit for. I know underneath he's a nice horse and it will come.
Maybe don't put pressure on yourself to get on now. Start from the beginning with him would be my suggestion.
 
I'm sorry to hear this OP.

It would be impossible to say if it is pain related or due to bad breaking. Whatever it is I hope you both get through it and have a great time together. Your horse does sound very sweet in general and you think so too.

Wishing you the very best, please keep us all updated.
 
Personally I'd be getting the vet out first. Could be kissing spines or ulcers

I've considered both, but would it be normal for the behavior to be intermittent? I was under the impression with both that he would be uncomfortable at least the majority of the time? He's never girthy or grumpy, eats fine, is happy in himself, and we've had over a week of no untoward behavior. It's just the odd explosion? I still plan on speaking to vet, however any info re: normal symptoms would be fab.

Having been through, and still going through this with my 'youngster' (now 5), I would suggest double checking and triple checking the fitting of your saddle.
In addition, get a decent physio /chiro out to check him out before trying a saddle on again.

I've had issues with youngsters and saddle fit in the past - I know what they're like for changing shape which is why I'm using a Smart Solution saddle. There is no rigid tree, so there is nothing to pinch / cause pain. He doesn't hide from the saddle, he's never girthy, he's never pulled faces when putting the saddle on. He actually went to sleep in the stable the first time we girthed it up fully.

I'm sorry to hear this OP.

It would be impossible to say if it is pain related or due to bad breaking. Whatever it is I hope you both get through it and have a great time together. Your horse does sound very sweet in general and you think so too.

Wishing you the very best, please keep us all updated.

I will do, thank you. I'm thinking a discussion with his previous owner may be initial port of call, then medical checks and back to basics (having said that, you'd think that sitting on for 30secs and dismounting would be fairly basic...)? I really didn't expect this kind of reaction from him when you look at his temperament. I'm just curious as to whether anybody has experienced similar intermittent behavior from a pain-related issue?
 
We have just had a similar situation at our yard

A lady purchased a 4 yo irish horse, who had been "fully broken", after several episodes as you describe, she decided she had eaten enough dirt and got our local guy in to work with the horse, as she wasn't prepared to do it herself.


The horse was taken right back to basics, and after a few weeks is now able to be ridden, however, he did say the horse had either been rushed or given a fright during the backing process and did not like the pressure she was being put under as she didn't fully understand what was being asked of her. So he took things very slowly.

I think the answer OP is right back to the beginning as JG suggested, providing all the usual back, tack etc. is all ok.

Hope you get this sorted.
 
Can you get in touch with the professional who broke him and ask if anything happened? Wishing you luck OP, once the vet has checked him and given him the all clear it might be beneficial for him to have a little holiday and start again next spring.
 
My boy was similarly fine with everything like yours - and had a similar response to yours also at one point. My thoughts were he didn't like moving when he could see something above him so we brought out zeddy the teddy - a big massive wobbly thing which was strapped onto his back and introduced him to seein something behind him without the need for me to hit the deck again! Probably not what a lot if people would do but it worked for me!!
 
My previous lad did exactly this and bronced me twice, I had no chance of staying on and was lucky to avoid a serious injury.

He was broken very badly in my opinion, I don't know what they did but I found out it only cost 40quid a week so I'd imagine they stuck a saddle on him and scared the hell out of him.

In addition we found out that the saddle I was using was too long and had a hard patch of flocking put in to try and even up the slight difference in his back. this saddle was fitted by a master saddler as a new saddle. Yes, I was furious when I found out.

My suspicion is that the saddle was uncomfortable and as he'd not been broken properly this contributed to the explosive reaction when the saddle hurt.

I don't know much about the saddle you're using but if you can try a different one it might give a better result. My lad was sold as he was too much for me anyway, but he had a physio visit and visibly relaxed once she'd been. He's been fine in a treeless ever since. Could your saddle be too long?

Also don't be fooled by the sleepy eyes after an explosion, in my experience it's the endorphins killing pain as a result of the adrenalin release.

Good luck, do come back and tell us when you've solved it!
 
If it were me I'd return him. Only 4 weeks ago you bought a 'fully broken' horse and now you have one that is potentially dangerous and could cost a lot of money to put right. Not worth it IMO no matter how much you like him, you'll like one that will do your job more!
 
Joyous - thanks, it's sounding more and more like bad breaking :(

Nell - I've been on touch with the professional. She claims he was well behaved throughout the breaking process, but she's been very vague and dodged direct questions. She said that he was hard work for the first week, but was fine one they "built a bond", which allegedly took all of a week(???).

asommerville - maybe worth a shot! The odd thing with this boy is he seems okay with having someone above / behind him, it's the weight itself that appears to kick him off.

Sadken - I'm not sure what type of saddle he was broken in, it's quite possible that it didn't fit correctly. However the saddle he's in now is a very reputable treeless, which is a 17" seat. He's 15.2 with an average length back, so it's unlikely that it's too long for him. That's shocking about your boy.

Saddlesore - The thought has crossed my mind, but at the same time he's such a lovely boy who's perfect in every other way... I spent months finding the right horse this time. I'm torn as to whether this is worth battling at the moment. To say I'm confused is an understatement.
 
I think - but I'm a sap that if a horse is a nice person they are worth the extra effort. My boys a part bred Arab, and he was tricky to back, his reaction to something he didn't like was to run away bronking. Like I said above we sorted out the problem and he was a star after that. If he's good in every other respect it might be worth ruling out the pain thing and them going back a few steps, maybe he's a wee but sensitive and his wee head us wasted with being backed and having a new owner - I really hope you sort him out x
 
Go back to scratch completely. Treat him unbroken, with a slight err of caution along with it. Even if he was sent to be #professionally' broken....there's no way he'd have done enough in how ever many weeks he was there to have done a major amount of anything, certainly not balanced, and then not doing anything since either.

I'd just start completely from scratch. Ground work ground work ground wor, get him balanced and working on the ground and understanding everything...you can never do too much. Do intermittant weight up and on in, but don't focus too much on the riding part I personally wouldn't. At his age, there is so much more ground work you can do to get him easier managable and predictable. Then translate it easier with him understanding more introducing the ridden work. :)

Good luck.


eta - just seen the treeless comment. Could it be a case of he's never had a 'bareback' feel to him with weight directly on him more? I always break bareback personally...however not many profs will I've noticed [not stating all....just personal findings]. Could be just a 'wierd' feeling for him also? Doubtful it's the sole reason, but only mention it as I had a fully schooled hunter explode under me when I thought it would be no prob to have a bareback session.....he did not like the feeling however and bronced like stink first time with one! He was a complete schoolmaster!]
 
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asommerville - Oh I agree, totally. This guy was supposed to be here for life - no more horse shopping, and I've had Arabs before. I know they can be difficult, rather sensitive souls, and I wasn't expecting him to be a walk in the park. He's definitely worth the effort, but at the same time my main dealbreaker is rearing (along with bolting... go figure). I've never had a horse go vertical with me until yesterday. I'll be honest - it shook me a little.

Fiona - I've PM'd you.

CS - My plan was to restart him regardless, however I didn't think that slowly sitting on and dismounting again would be such a big deal. That was all we were aiming for initially. Groundwork, some weight in the saddle, and more groundwork. As it was that resulted in the first bronking session, and I came to the conclusion that it couldn't be left on that note. Re: treeless, he's in a Smart Solution, so although it is rigid-free, is is still a fairly sturdy construction. It's not a bareback-pad type treeless, and I've yet to find a horse that reacts differently to that saddle (though there's a first time for everything!). Again, the bit that confuses me is that he was perfect one day, then in total meltdown from the word "go" the next. There was nothing different. Same tack, same saddlepads, same school, same mounting block, same rider, same time of day and busy-ness, hell even the same weather. I don't get it.

ETA: TL, sadly not :( We're Midlands based.
 
Aaah ok sorry I wasn't sure type you meant when you said treeless. Was only a passing thought. Can rule that out then :)

On a different tangent, deffo wasn't stung anywhere by anything etc etc? Thinking outside of the box if he was that quiet in every other aspect till then?

All the best with him.
 
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