Explosive behaviour from 4yo... opinions, please?

ChristmasSparkles said:
Aaah ok sorry I wasn't sure type you meant when you said treeless. Was only a passing thought. Can rule that out then :)

On a different tangent, deffo wasn't stung anywhere by anything etc etc? Thinking outside of the box if he was that quiet in every other aspect till then?

All the best with him.
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Thank you. No noticeable bites / stings / etc anywhere, but I wouldn't discount it. He does appear to have minor meltdowns at strange times, yet 95% of the time he's as chilled out as you like.

Physio will be looking at his back start of next week, and I'll have a chat with his previous owner over the weekend. Directly after his last explosion he was put on the lunge in full tack, stirrups left down, and send round in walk and trot. No problem at all. Weird.
 
I agree with the others re starting from scratch if you decide to keep him.

Re the saddle. When I got my boy last year, also 4yr old and recently backed, I didn't have a treed saddle for him so used my Fitform treeless. He went very nicely in this but it didn't give me much support and after a couple of worrying hacks I decided to try something else. As he's young and likely to change I wanted to stay with a treeless, so went for a HM FlexEE. He hated it. I only realised it was the saddle causing his problem when I had him fitted for a treed after him losing the plot as I was trying to fasten up the dressage girth. Having to lean right over on a young horse who's unpredictable is bad enough, never mind having them leg it and bronc whilst you're half off with only one girth billet fastened, so I decided to get a GP saddle with normal length girth as a last resort.

He's been fairly angelic since swopping saddles. All the napping, running through the shoulder, threatening to rear has just disappeared. The FlexEE is purported as being one of the better treeless saddles available, especially on a budget, but for some reason he couldn't stand it. He goes sweetly in the Fitform and now in his treed (started with a Black Country which he's outgrown so now he has a K&M cob with the xwide gullet).

So, perhaps don't rule out the saddle as the problem just yet. He might be fine with it until you put weight on it in a certain spot or certain way, which is why the behaviour is intermittent.
 
I do like the Solution Treeless saddles, but I think it is a dangerous thing to think that because they do not have a tree they cannot cause harm. A pair of shoes does not have a tree, but they sure as hell can make my feet sore.

That particular treeless has a very firm gullet that my horse finds too tight. He went better in the solution old type with no gullet at all, and soft pads to make the top miss the wither.

With the Smart version he was not happy.

The Smart felt nicer to me, but not to my horse.

I do believe they can be Made to fit most horses with pads, shims etc, but if the base of the saddle is so firm, even without a tree, it is easier to misplace a shim etc. I would see if you could try one of the older style solution saddles, preferably with no gullet, for elimination purposes.
 
Thanks guys. I do appreciate that the saddle isn't necessarily perfect, my point is that there is nothing rigid to specifically cause pain. I'm aware that some horses do dislike the feel of Solutions, however to purely sit & dismount the strange feelings shouldn't be too much of an issue. He's actually in a Smart Native (I don't think the gullet is as solid as the normal Smarts), but as he does have some in the way of withers, it's padded up underneath with a thick numnah and prolite pad. I don't have another suitable saddle to hand, but I will bear it in mind.

He was particularly "off" with me tonight. Quite antisocial, not sure about being caught, and generally a tad grumpy. Physio booked for Tues. I'm feeling rather disheartened at the minute.
 
I have to say I agree with those who have suggested failure of the trainer who backed him. I have one of my youngsters back. I have never sent a youngster away to be backed, we back all of our youngsters ourselves, but this spring I just didn't have the time so I sent my youngster to a respectable trainer (I am in the horse business so I know who to use and who not to). I don't know what went on but for the first two weeks all the reports were great (with hindsight of course they were great as all the groundwork I had done with her prior to her going there!). This sounded just like my young horse as she has always been eager to learn and please. And then at the beginning of the third week the report was not good at all. She bronked the rider off. I went down as soon as I could to see what was going on (a 6 hour round trip) and then I saw, what I judged as a poor training schedule. So after staying overnight in a hotel, I made the decision to take her home with me the following day, which I did. She's been home a while now and I have taken things very slowly with her. We've gone back many steps just to get her to where she was before she left and we're miles behind where we would have been if we'd started her.

There is nothing physically wrong with mine; it's just something went wrong in the backing process and it's always harder to make good a bad job than it is starting from scratch.
 
saddlesore said:
If it were me I'd return him. Only 4 weeks ago you bought a 'fully broken' horse and now you have one that is potentially dangerous and could cost a lot of money to put right. Not worth it IMO no matter how much you like him, you'll like one that will do your job more!
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^^^^This! I have recently learned the hard way that life is too short to have a horse in your life that frightens you...even just a little bit. It has a knock on effect on how you deal with that horse and even the people around you, who love you. I now have the sweetest friend of a horse I can trust and life is good. I realised I painted myself into a corner with the previous unsafe horse as 'I didn't want to let her down by bailing out and returning her'. Would have saved a whole lot of broken bones and tears if I had in the early days! However you may be a much braver woman than me and have much more experience. Listen to what your gut tells you and do what is right for you. Good luck!
 
We had to break a strange shaped horse in a treeless - a decent one. It made his back sore after just a few ridden sessions. If you keep the horse, I really would invest in a decent saddle.
 
Spring Feather said:
There is nothing physically wrong with mine; it's just something went wrong in the backing process and it's always harder to make good a bad job than it is starting from scratch.
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That's awful, SF. It's a very real concern at the moment, the question is just how difficult it would be to rectify a bad job.

snowstormII said:
^^^^This! I have recently learned the hard way that life is too short to have a horse in your life that frightens you...even just a little bit. It has a knock on effect on how you deal with that horse and even the people around you, who love you. I now have the sweetest friend of a horse I can trust and life is good. I realised I painted myself into a corner with the previous unsafe horse as 'I didn't want to let her down by bailing out and returning her'. Would have saved a whole lot of broken bones and tears if I had in the early days! However you may be a much braver woman than me and have much more experience. Listen to what your gut tells you and do what is right for you. Good luck!
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Thank you. I honestly don't know whether it's worth the battle or not at the moment. As you say, once bones are broken it's a little late. I'm a relatively brave rider, but I think vertical rearing is possibly where I draw the line... I don't know. The conversation will be had tomorrow, I think, or perhaps we'll hear the physio out first. I couldn't even catch him today, for the first time since arriving.

siennamum said:
We had to break a strange shaped horse in a treeless - a decent one. It made his back sore after just a few ridden sessions. If you keep the horse, I really would invest in a decent saddle.
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My Solution cost me in excess of £2200. Believe me, it's a decent saddle. I love it, and every horse I've used it on to date has gotten on very well with it, which includes everything from hacking for hours to jumping courses. I genuinely don't think the saddle is the main issue, here.
 
Only that I've heard of a few similar traits in horses by Moonshine Vision, think they can be quite difficult but once you get through it are good competition horses. Also know of some that have been no problem but there does seem to be that tendency in some of them.
 
bollybop said:
Personally I'd be getting the vet out first. Could be kissing spines or ulcers
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I admit I haven't read through all of the replies but this is EXACTLY what my mare did at the beginning of her working career. Started out hacking quietly and she was great - as soon as we ventured in to the arena, she exploded - pretty much in the same style as you describe and after investigations, she was diagnosed with kissing spine...... Oh, and ulcers too for good measure!
Fast forward 18 months and you wouldn't even know it now :)
 
Definitely have the Vet out first to check for pain issues. Have you had his teeth done too? Me and a fellow workmate re-broke a lovely Connemara gelding earlier this year due to him having a reputation for flipping out out of nowhere and decking people. We started him from scratch as we thought he wasn't broken properly - he was turned away prior to this for a bit first too. He was back in work for about 6 week when out of nowhere, he grew about a hand and went crazy and bucked me off. He was very laid back to ride usually and if anything a bit lazy! This was clearly a pain response and so I didn't remount and refused to carry on riding him. I think the time he had off, his back had got better and then the ridden work had made him sore again - I think he potentially had kissing spine but it wasn't investigated and the owner sold him on. Such a shame though, if I was rich I would have bought him and got his back sorted and then maybe started him again once I knew he definitely wasn't in pain. So in answer to your question - yes things like this can be intermittent.
 
teddy can work, big one like from funfair. If he still does it you will know its more than just fright ( give him a chance to get used to it though). Saddle too narrow , low or long can cause this. or even tightening the girth too quickly, some horses that appear quiet are freezing so check his eyes all the time and watch for him holding his breath - all indicators he is panicking on the inside. Also check his pulse rate it may be high even if he appears calm. The difficulty is finding the problem as it could be pain or fear, or even just remembered pain. however if teddy rides him successfully for a couple of weeks try re backing him with someone very light, my view is that some horses have more pliable spines as they fuse later and cannot carry anything like the weight they are supposed to, hence the incidence of kissing spine as the spine drops and the spines impinge. 10% of bodyweight is plenty for backing and lighter better. was taught by a very experienced lady and she would not put more than eight stone on a 16.2hh horse to start with and for some weeks after. she never had any back or lameness problems with her horses. heavier riders rode them after about six months, she rode them herself once backed and weighed about nine stone and was 6ft.
 
Why are you so reluctant to get the saddle checked. Just because it cost £2200 doesn't mean it is a guaranteed fit. By your own admission you are shimming it up as it isn't sitting properly.

I'd also check for ulcers. It is a widely reported that ulcer pain is intermittent and depends on how empty the stomach is before riding.
 
Physio's findings: spasm / pain rated on a scale of 1 through 10, 10 being the most painful. Poll to shoulder 4/10, back 7/10, loins to pelvis 8/10. She claims vet may be a good idea, or we can see if treatment makes a difference. Also weak on right quarter (possible old injury), stilted gait behind in trot. Feeling a bit flat... and wondering whether a second opinion may be a good call.

Bloody horses.
 
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I agree with calling the vet if that is the pain level of your horse.

I did not know that you are using Prolite Pads with your Solution. They are not ideal, the gullet on the Prolite is too small for these closer fitting saddles. The Prolite padding is wedged into the saddle gullet. I would talk to Ann Bondi, owner of Solution Saddles, who would be able to help you with their under saddle shims and pads. I would call her out in any case, it really is not that simple to fit a Soultion Smart. They recommend you have Ann or one of their approved fitters to do the initial fitting. They invest a lot of time and money in training their saddle fitters.

If you think about it even numnahs that are pulled down onto the withers can cause pain and soreness.

As I said before, the Smart has a lot more firm a feel in the gullet, which is great for some horses, but mine preferred the wider gullet or no gullet of the older Solutions. I also padded up until there was a one finger gap, but with the pads supplied by Ann Bondi, not a Prolite.

I would also recommend you see Ann as she is passionate about helping horses, and will do her utmost to help. They sometimes have saddle testing days where the horse is pressure mapped, it may be worth doing that, and if your horse is showing so much pain reaction after use of a Solution, I am sure she would like to get to the root of the problem (if that does not turn out simply to be the Prolite pad, or that the saddle was never fitted to the horse).

If you have not had it fitted by a Solution fitter, the fitter would be able to firstly adjust the fit for now and then also advise on how you may be able to adjust as your horse develops. They will also help you to identify when you need a visit by the fitter again, as horses often change shape when being ridden in a Solution.

I have had great success in a couple of hard to fit horses with Solution saddles (in fact I am one of the satisfied customers on their website - it stopped a horse we believed to be starting with navic from having any symptoms - he was transformed), but without a proper fitting you are not giving the saddle a chance.
 
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I think you're all missing the fact that this horse has been sat on 6 times in total, for no more than 15 minutes cumulative over those 6 times. The saddle doesn't pinch, doesn't press anywhere it shouldn't, there's no tree to be fitted and he's perfectly happy having it put on and girthed up. The saddle really isn't the issue here (believe me, I'm not trying to defend myself, but 15mins use of a flexible saddle is not going to do that to his back!). It will be checked by my rep when he is in a state to consider ridden work - I'm not stupid, I've had the reps out various times before and they're fab, it will be done when possible.

Vet will be called, but after recent luck with horses I'm about ready to sit in a corner and cry.
 
IMO he was not properly/fully broke and the things he is reacting to are things he has not been introduced to, ie a saddle and weight or was introduced to in an aggressive manner.

Let him settle in, have him looked over by a vet and then go back to the basics and begin again. The 'pro' dodging your questions & being shady may have fried his brain! and knows it!

Good luck.
 
Voxhorse said:
IMO he was not properly/fully broke and the things he is reacting to are things he has not been introduced to correctly, ie a saddle and weight or was introduced to in an aggressive manner or....... pain in his back.

Let him settle in, have him looked over by a vet and then go back to the basics and begin again. The 'pro' dodging your questions & being shady may have fried his brain! and knows it!

Good luck.
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he sounds very sweet natured though :)
 
I would get the vet out and then depending on the outcome seriously think about returning him to his previous owner.. this horse sadly could end up costing you an awful lot of money. :( Really hope you get him sorted though as he sounds a lovely chap. Keep us updated!
 
Just wanted to say ((((hugs)))) OP, it's a horrible situation and I hope you get it resolved soon. Damn horses take us to the line and back sometimes.
 
Breez said:
I think you're all missing the fact that this horse has been sat on 6 times in total, for no more than 15 minutes cumulative over those 6 times. The saddle doesn't pinch, doesn't press anywhere it shouldn't, there's no tree to be fitted and he's perfectly happy having it put on and girthed up. The saddle really isn't the issue here (believe me, I'm not trying to defend myself, but 15mins use of a flexible saddle is not going to do that to his back!). It will be checked by my rep when he is in a state to consider ridden work - I'm not stupid, I've had the reps out various times before and they're fab, it will be done when possible.

Vet will be called, but after recent luck with horses I'm about ready to sit in a corner and cry.
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Guys, I'm going to quote back to his post. Can we ignore the saddle for the time being, please? :(

annabel2009 said:
I would get the vet out and then depending on the outcome seriously think about returning him to his previous owner.. this horse sadly could end up costing you an awful lot of money. :( Really hope you get him sorted though as he sounds a lovely chap. Keep us updated!
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It's a serious thought going through my mind at the moment... heart vs. head battle, however. As he's new insurance wouldn't be valid just yet, so I'm footing every cost. Previous owner has requested a second opinion from an Osteo, not sure whether that's worth pursuing as I don't think she believes the physio's findings. Physio came highly recommended to me.
 
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