Explosive behaviour from 4yo... opinions, please?

[YasandCrystal]

Could you kill 2 birds with one stone and use a holistic vet? I don't know where you are but I used Donna Blinman at Higham near Newmarket who is both a qualified vet and osteopath. At least you will get a definitive answer as to what you are dealing with.
I agree the saddle is not the cause in this case, but the horse is clearly sore and one can only suspect something happened at the breakers, else they would come clean about the behaviour because as sure as eggs are eggs the horse will have displayed this there too.
I hope you can resolve this - cure the pain and you will have a grateful trusting horse again.

 

[hippocobamus]

Sorry to hear that you're having some issues. It certainly sounds as though he's reacting to something.

I am also a SMART Native saddle owner and can't say enough good words about it; it has transformed my hippocob and taken the stress out of horse owning for me. I quite agree that any saddle, treed or treeless, can cause problems if it's not fitted properly, and would encourage you to have your agent out to check everything is right for this horse, but that's the beauty of the SMART saddles, you can change the fit of the saddle with the horse as necessary. I doubt that this saddle can be the route cause of such an explosive reaction though.

Best of luck with whatever route you go.

 

[Baileybones]

I've PM' d you

 

[ester]

If he is on a pain score of 7/10 and 8/10 for his back/loins I think he needs to see the vet asap.

I think it is your choice based on how much you like him whether you want to do this at all or would prefer just to send him back to the owners.

 

[abb123]

OP - I would get saddle checked just so that you can tick the box for having checked it. If it is pinching occasionally then it may very well explain the odd explosions. This would make perfect sense with the behaviour you have described. As others have said, just because it is treeless doesn't mean that it can't pinch.

I understand that you strongly believe that it isn't the saddle. But it wouldn't cost that much to just get it checked and then you can move on confident that it isn't an issue - and you can then put up a smug told you so post when the saddler says it is fine ;-) It is just one of those things, work your way methodically through the usual suspects of saddle, teeth and feet/shoes before thinking about anything else.

You have a pain score of 7/10 and 8/10 for the back and loin area so I would want a vet to check horse over too.

If saddle/vet comes back ok then I think it would be a case of the horse having had a bad start. In which case you need to decide to send him back or start him again yourself. Personally, I think you need to decide that now before you spend money on vet/saddler (which I think is a must before you re-start). How much do you want to spend on him if you then decide to send him back?

 

[Beatbox]

Completely agree with Red-1. The Solution Saddles Advisors are very knowledgeable. I have the new SMART Sport VT which has a wider gullet and a bigger weight bearing panel which my horses are very happy in.

That sort of reaction has to be a pain response and unless you want to take on a welfare project and have plenty of disposable income, you should send the horse back.

I agree with calling the vet if that is the pain level of your horse.

I did not know that you are using Prolite Pads with your Solution. They are not ideal, the gullet on the Prolite is too small for these closer fitting saddles. The Prolite padding is wedged into the saddle gullet. I would talk to Ann Bondi, owner of Solution Saddles, who would be able to help you with their under saddle shims and pads. I would call her out in any case, it really is not that simple to fit a Soultion Smart. They recommend you have Ann or one of their approved fitters to do the initial fitting. They invest a lot of time and money in training their saddle fitters.

If you think about it even numnahs that are pulled down onto the withers can cause pain and soreness.

As I said before, the Smart has a lot more firm a feel in the gullet, which is great for some horses, but mine preferred the wider gullet or no gullet of the older Solutions. I also padded up until there was a one finger gap, but with the pads supplied by Ann Bondi, not a Prolite.

I would also recommend you see Ann as she is passionate about helping horses, and will do her utmost to help. They sometimes have saddle testing days where the horse is pressure mapped, it may be worth doing that, and if your horse is showing so much pain reaction after use of a Solution, I am sure she would like to get to the root of the problem (if that does not turn out simply to be the Prolite pad, or that the saddle was never fitted to the horse).

If you have not had it fitted by a Solution fitter, the fitter would be able to firstly adjust the fit for now and then also advise on how you may be able to adjust as your horse develops. They will also help you to identify when you need a visit by the fitter again, as horses often change shape when being ridden in a Solution.

I have had great success in a couple of hard to fit horses with Solution saddles (in fact I am one of the satisfied customers on their website - it stopped a horse we believed to be starting with navic from having any symptoms - he was transformed), but without a proper fitting you are not giving the saddle a chance.

 

[Breez]

Yas - a good idea, though I'm not sure of any holistic vets that cover this area? I'm Midlands based. I'd be surprised if he didn't show any of this behaviour at the breaker's, however getting her to admit such a thing may be another story. I know it was claimed that he took a lot of leg and wasn't particularly forward (odd for a fairly sharp 4yo PBA?), but it was also claimed that he didn't misbehave.

I agree that he definitely needs vet treatment, the question really is who should be administering it. Perhaps Osteo to confirm findings, then blunt discussion with previous owner? His hind end does show a noticeable weakness, and physio's wording was "chronic injury" being the most likely cause. Possibly all linked to the back pain, but at the same time she said that violent bronking can also cause such back tension. 6 of one... half a dozen of the other... which caused which we just don't know.

My head is saying he needs to go back. My heart is still arguing the case. I don't have the funds or facilities for a welfare case / real problem horse that may not come right. Bah.

 

[asommerville]

Just a wee note in the - not going forward even though he's a sharp horse. My boys a PBA sharp as hell when it suits him but lazy too - he used to be so busy looking for something to spook at that he woukent go off your leg at all!!

 

[Red-1]

I think the thing that makes me question if it were a breaking issue is how the horse was "golden" when first restarted, with banging and flapping and leaning on the saddle. Without going back, it has been fine when leaning lightly but wappy when leaned heavily. Some days fine sat on and some not. This makes me think of a pinching saddle.

OP, I can understand your defence of the Solution, they are something that I have had to defend too in the past when people have not understood. However, a lot of the people on here are USERS and supporters of the Solution. You say that you have had used it successfully on other horses in the past, and have used fitters in the past, but as you are using a Prolite with this horse I suspect you have not used a fitter with this horse.

The Solution can have a tighter gullet as, as you say, there are no rigid parts to dig in. With the wrong under pad though they can still nip. One nip would be enough to send a newly backed horse into a surprise bucking antic, and once a baby has dumped a rider this alone can cause the horse to lose confidence.

TBH, if I were the person who had broken this horse I would be disappointed if the horse were initially "golden" and then when there were issues (with a different saddle) that the saddle were not checked. I guess you will never know the story with this horse, but I agree with abb123, it is one thing to tick off the checklist, and you can be all smug when we are all wrong.

I think people on this thread are all trying to help. You did ask for opinions please?

 

[Breez]

I did, Red. But please actually read the initial post. He wasn't golden to begin with. He's been good on groundwork, however he has had rather large meltdowns on other occasions whereby no tack or riding was involved at all. First sit on, he exploded. 5 sit-ons later, he exploded again.

I repeat, saddle will be checked in due course. Saddle is not going near him for a long time by the look of things, and with the amount of physio / vet bills that look like they're about to stack up, saddle will need to take a back seat until we're in a position to consider actually getting on him. For your own piece of mind, my Solution will be sat gathering dust. Nowhere near my horses back. I did ask for opinions and I do appreciate them, however I think there are bigger issues here than the saddle. His back has an 8/10 on painscale BEHIND the saddle, for reference.

Can I stop explaining myself now, please?

 

[BBP]

I don't have a solution for you, only to say that mine was explosive during and well after the backing process. Sheer panic triggering massive rodeos. Was he badly backed? Possibly, I did it myself and I certainly wasn't perfect. Was he is pain? It was never picked up by me, the vet, the Physio or the saddler. Having said that, 5 years on and having his back thermal imaged and he has a real hot spot in his thoracic spine. I switched physios and she also picked this up. He wasn't reactive but was extremely tight and 'blocked' in his back and hind end across his thoraco-lumbar region. He has a very 'look for danger' natural posture which encourages his back muscles to contract rather than relax. I don't know how long this hot spot has been there, whether it caused him pain before and then over time he realised exploding didn't help and came to tolerate it. I really don't know. What I do know is that he has cost me a great deal, but in time, not really in money. I have put a huge amount of time into learning about him, his triggers, how he works and feels and reacts, what's a mental reaction and what is physical.

If I had to do it again I would thermal image him all over (never really thought of it before but it really helped me to see the problem areas where I wasn't experienced enough to feel them) but I'm not sure what I would have changed other than that. He is a horse with a complex mind, he still panics at the most bizarre things and is fine with other crazy stuff. I do know that for me, having hot to know him, I would never give up trying to learn what makes him tick. He is such a lovely, genuine horse that he deserves me doing everything I can to understand him. I have never regretted it. Good luck with whatever you do with him.

 

[LizzieRC1313]

Is he to be your only horse to ride & enjoy? Cause if he is, I'd really try to let your head rule over your heart. I know a few people on my yard that have taken on difficult horses as their main riding horse and have spent thousands trying to get them fixed with no joy. I also have a friend who had a 4yo who went to Newmarket & turned out had a number of issues, he'd never be 100% so she made the decision to walk away. She absolutely loved him too, she just didn't want to start off with a crock at 4. If riding is your hobby & you have only owned him a few weeks then I'd think long and hard about whether potentially £1000s of vet work on a 4yr old is worth it. If he's good to handle is he big enough for the blood bank if seller wouldn't take him back? To me, the lack of ridden photos sounds suspicious.

 

[Breez]

he still panics at the most bizarre things and is fine with other crazy stuff.

It's interesting that you say that, Kat. This boy is fine with pretty scary type stuff (big rolls of plastic, flappy things, etc), but will lose his head at the stupidest of things. The last one was an elderly horse being led, slowly, towards him. He knows said horse, and said horse is the most placid guy you could ever meet. No sudden movements anywhere, but he spooked that violently that he ended up on his face, on the floor (I was wiping dust off both his face and his knees when he got back up).

Is he to be your only horse to ride & enjoy? Cause if he is, I'd really try to let your head rule over your heart.

Yes, he's my only horse. There isn't an option to have a second, unfortunately. You're probably right - I know he needs to go back, but it's such a hard decision to finalise. I'm pretty sure seller would take him back.

 

[hihosilver]

I would get his back x-rayed for kissing spine before doing any more with him. If clear you need to go right back to basics and he will regain his confidence. He sounds like he is either in pain or has had a fright. Good luck x

 

[Red-1]

Hi, I am sorry I seem to have missed something....

This was the first post

Please bear with me, as this may be long - if you're short of time just read the final paragraph Any replies appreciated.

I've recently brought home a 4yo gelding (nearly 4 weeks ago). He's a very sweet chap, very friendly, sociable, loves both people and horses. He was sent to a professional breaker in February by his previous owner, and was fully broken to a point of walk, trot and canter on both reins. He's also been hacked down quiet lanes on his own, but hasn't been worked since returning from the breaker's (May this year).

We gave him a couple of weeks to settle, then started groundwork with him. We established that he was fine with tack, he was clued up in walk and trot on the lunge, and he was fine when long reined around the school. Stirrups were swung, saddles were banged, plenty of desensitising stuff done and he was golden. He was leant over (full body weight), and still no issues. Great.

So, Friday before last (18th) we decided to take it to the next step and sit a rider on him (myself). My weight had barely touched the saddle when he freaked, took off, and full rodeo-style bronked the length of an olympic sized school. I attempted to sit it, and ended up hitting the deck at the top end, flat on my back. After regaining the use of my lungs(!), I got on again, very slowly, like you would first backing. He was unsure, but didn't lose it. We left it there.
.

I did, Red. But please actually read the initial post. He wasn't golden to begin with. He's been good on groundwork, however he has had rather large meltdowns on other occasions whereby no tack or riding was involved at all. First sit on, he exploded. 5 sit-ons later, he exploded again.

From your first post I read that he was "golden" until mounted, and at that time he "bronked" and threw you, after which he has been nervous and unreliable. I am sorry if I have missed something. I read that as he cold have been nipped at first mounting, and had now been scared and unnerved.

Of course do not have to keep "explaining yourself". When you ask for opinions other people from outside are impartial and can possible help you see the whole experience from a non emotional perspective, and that is what I thought you wanted an opinion on.

I am happy for you that so many people have been so helpful, and I wish you every luck with your new horse. I hope he makes the horse you hoped you had bought.

 

[Beatbox]

LOL! Sorry - but that's forums for you!
I understand your frustrations, but Red-1 is right - people are just trying to help - and it's now a long thread, so chances are that no-one is reading and understanding every word - but of course, you are living every moment of the hell....

Most back pain is secondary to a primary clinical issue - usually hindlimb lameness. If it's bilateral, chances are that no-one has picked up on it as it can be very difficult to see. I have been this route before with horses - and it's never good.
Still think you should find a horse without all the problems.

 

[Breez]

You're right, now a long thread, and I'm a rather bad combination of upset, confused and frustrated at the moment. I did mention ground explosions somewhere along the line, I thought it was the first post. Maybe it was a few in, I'm sorry. We've had meltdowns both in-hand and when tied on the yard, but the worst have been under saddle (the bronking fits). He's been lazy and slightly nappy at the gate from the word go, physio observed stilted gait behind and unwillingness to go forward. His back is sore, but the worst affected area is lumbar, hip flexors, and gluteals (gluteals specified as weak).

The impartial opinions are appreciated, as it helps you see where you really stand. The more I look at it on paper, the more the sending back option is appealing

 

[wench]

Have you got the vet booked yet? Thermal imaging can give you a good idea of where to start looking for the problem

 

[Breez]

Update:-

Osteo's findings: his back is in spasm, he's very, very sore on one vertebra that sits just under the back of the saddle, and it's no wonder he's exploding the way he is. Osteo claims next step is x-rays and scanning, looking at either a case of kissing spines or damaged ligaments within the spine, he thinks most likely a possibility if he turned himself inside and out when broken, or perhaps if they pulled him over backwards with a saddle on. Vet findings needed to distinguish, but realistically 3mths field rest and start him again from scratch from there if suitable. Claims it's not a recent injury, very inflamed. Previous owner reckons he was fine when leaving her, perfectly behaved with the breaker then was turned away while back with her.

My head's reeling. Gutted.

 

[AmyMay]

Good luck with the vet. Keep us posted.

 

[Fun Times]

OP I totally understand how upset and worried you must be feeling. I would be really struggling with this too. Honestly, if the previous owner is still willing to take this horse back I would be biting their hand off and making arrangements to move him asap. Otherwise I fear you may be lumbered with quite a big problem.

 

[Breez]

Previous owner won't take him back. Go figure.

 

[ester]

Bonkers2 - Bought as fully broken (I asked at time of purchase if they meant backed, I was told "No, fully broken"). He was sold from field due to owner's (genuine) ill health - really lovely people who want him returned to them should he not be right, however I'm curious as to others' opinions. Failed breaking, pain response, something else?

Not so lovely and caring for his future then, poor pony. I don't know if there is anything you can do if there is no way of proving they had prior knowledge of a problem though/trainer either didn't tell them or has agreed to keep something quiet? I think you need to speak to the BHS legal helpline/get some advice asap, and decide how much you want to spend on this pony - I don't know whether if you can prove kissing spines for example you would have more of a legal leg to stand on? Could easily not be that though ......

 

[Fun Times]

Previous owner won't take him back. Go figure.

Hmmm, not a total surprise then. Have you got the vet booked? Don't give up all hope just yet, there is still a chance that this is not catastrophic. Whilst I am sure you are dreading what they may reveal, you do now need the answers that only xrays can provide. I will hope for the best for you.

 

[Breez]

Not so lovely and caring for his future then, poor pony. I don't know if there is anything you can do if there is no way of proving they had prior knowledge of a problem though/trainer either didn't tell them or has agreed to keep something quiet? I think you need to speak to the BHS legal helpline/get some advice asap, and decide how much you want to spend on this pony - I don't know whether if you can prove kissing spines for example you would have more of a legal leg to stand on? Could easily not be that though ......

Nope... I feel dreadful for him. Goes to show you can't trust what people say. Osteo is sure it's not recent because of the inflammation and thickening of tissue around that vertebra, but previous owner is still arguing that he was 100% when he left her. I don't know where legalities stand, but you may have a point... though we seem to be spiralling into a very expensive game here. I'm sure the breaker knows, but getting her to admit to that is a whole other kettle of fish. I just don't know what's best for him and me at the moment... funds are limited.

Hmmm, not a total surprise then. Have you got the vet booked? Don't give up all hope just yet, there is still a chance that this is not catastrophic. Whilst I am sure you are dreading what they may reveal, you do now need the answers that only xrays can provide. I will hope for the best for you.

Vet isn't booked just yet, as I wanted to discuss option of sending him back first. Osteo was really very good, and I'm inclined to believe what he's told me. I don't suppose you have any idea of the cost of back x-rays, nowadays?

 

[Fun Times]

Sorry I can't help with price of xrays but I am sure someone will be able to. Regarding the breaker, as a last ditch attempt could you try phoning and saying that this horse's future is seriously in doubt and in order for you to be able to make an informed decision you need as much info as she can give. I know it could be any number of things and I don't know the situation at all but I have an odd inkling this horse has gone over backwards with them. Not sure whether finding out what happened will get you much further but the more info you are armed with the better in my view.

 

[Voxhorse]

Would explain the shady dodging your questions! poor horse. Don't let them get away with it! and asking you to get a second opinion is quite a cheek.

Good luck with everything.

xx

 

[baymareb]

This thread is a heartbreak to read. I'm so sorry. I have no suggestions to add but just wanted to say I feel for you and for the horse who sounds like a very nice boy who couldn't help his behavior because he was in pain.

Good luck with it all. What a rotten course of events.

 

[cptrayes]

Vet isn't booked just yet, as I wanted to discuss option of sending him back first. Osteo was really very good, and I'm inclined to believe what he's told me. I don't suppose you have any idea of the cost of back x-rays, nowadays?

In Cheshire is around £150 for the set up and the first one, and £25 a plate after that, and you need four for the back and wither.

 

[Joyous70]

Breez

I have nothing really useful to add at this point in the thread, other than to say i have just logged on and seen your updates, i am so very sorry i can understand you feeling gutted this really isn't the outcome anyone would have wished for. I just wanted to say whatever you decided be strong in your mind and don't be swayed by others.