Explosive behaviour from 4yo... opinions, please?

Thank you, guys. It does explain a lot :(

I guess the question is WWYD at this point? I've only just finished paying a 4k vet bill - I'm reluctant to get too far in financially for a "we might fix it, we might not". What's the best option, here? :(
 
The thing is, if you pay for x-rays and it is kissing spine that is going to require more money to fix. If it isn't that is going to require more money for further investigations - or at that point you turn him away for a bit and see if the soft tissue issues resolve.

Alternatively send the previous owners a solicitors letter stating that unless you can return for a full refund you will take them to court for not as described and see if that encourages them slightly. (hence I think you should get some advice on this legally).

Or PTS and write off the purchase price.

I'm not sure what the 'best option' is. I would probably pay for the xrays and then go the legal route.
 
Breez said:
Thank you, guys. It does explain a lot :(

I guess the question is WWYD at this point? I've only just finished paying a 4k vet bill - I'm reluctant to get too far in financially for a "we might fix it, we might not". What's the best option, here? :(
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I'd pay another couple of hundred for x rays, hoping that they show kissing spines which could not have happened recently, then threaten the sellers with one solicitors letter, then put the horse down and cut my losses. If you can get any evidence that he was not really broken, then I would consider a small claim.

I am so sorry, I think you have been conned with this fellow and he was never properly ridden at all. My vet who did my horse's kissing spines said it shows at three ages, the first being when you first try to ride them, then at seven or eight, then at twelve-ish.

If it is kissing spines, You might be offered a ligament resection at a cost of under two thousand pounds. I would not recommend you to go down that route. I know of several horses, including my own, which had issues of remembered pain to be got through as part of the rehab. In a horse who has no good memories of being ridden, you could be in for a seriously difficult rehab/rebreaking with no guarantee of a good result at the end.

Let us know what you decide, won't you?
 
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cptrayes said:
I'd pay another couple of hundred for x rays, hoping that they show kissing spines which could not have happened recently, then threaten the sellers with one solicitors letter, then put the horse down and cut my losses. If you can get any evidence that he was not really broken, then I would consider a small claim.

I am so sorry, I think you have been conned with this fellow and he was never properly ridden at all. My vet who did my horse's kissing spines said it shows at three ages, the first being when you first try to ride them, then at seven or eight, then at twelve-ish.
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I think this makes sense, it seems strange that the owners sent him away to be backed then turned him away for a short time before selling from grass, if they were needing to move him on they should have either sold him while he was still at the breaking yard or sent him somewhere from there to sell, financially it would have been the most logical way to sell him, they would have had far more interest in something up and going, as well as getting more money, to turn him away seems odd, once you know there are issues it makes perfect sense, but hindsight makes everything so much clearer.
 
What a nightmare, I do feel sorry for you. I would get the xrays because it may not be as bad as you think, having witnessed a similarly bred horse throw himself over backwards it really wouldn't surprise me if he did this at the breakers leaving him with a back injury. I am always very suspicious of horses that have been "professionally broken" but then the owners turn away and sell from the field, it's just not logical. I would imagine he scared the s**t out of them and they then used ill health as the excuse for not riding him.
 
The Saddle Research Trust have launched a new Referral Scheme to help owners combat saddle related problems. This includes unresolved and undiagnosed poor performance issues. It would be worth your while to check it out as it could help you reach a definitive diagnosis and get the best, independent advice on how to proceed.

Go to saddleresearchtrust.com
 
This thread has made me sad. Really feel for you and your boy OP.

I'd get the x-rays done and seek legal advice (try the BHS if you're a gold member - it's free then). If the xrays reveal soft tissue damage only, turn away and hope for improvement whilst pursuing a claim against the sellers for not as described. If KS, I'd still turn away whilst pursuing the claim, but would PTS if not successful.

If after 3 months he's still with you, see if he's better and restart slowly, probably with a REAL professional.

If you decided to PTS I think that is valid in this case too, but if you like him (and I think you do) it might be worth a try.

Makes you wonder why the seller didn't sue the 'professional' for not doing a proper job...

I really hope it works out for you and for him. Please let us know how you get on.
 
If you havent done got the vet to do xrays yet, I would be seriously tempted to get a thermal imaging scan done of him first, as it may not be kissing spines, the pain could be stemming from elsewhere (and get a saddle fit check done too).

Whilst TI is not as "accurate" as xrays etc, it should give you a good idea of where the pain is coming from, and the heat patterns that show up can help to indicate if its a muscle, or different type of problem.

You should be able to get a whole horse done for approx £100.
 
My understanding of human xrays is that they show bones but not soft tissue. For soft tissue, I think you need a scan. So if it were me, first port of call would be to speak to the vet and ask whether xrays or a scan would be the best solution and the likely cost. I would probably have whichever the vet recommended done (assuming not ridiculous money) as I don't think I personally would feel able to take a decision to pts without knowing the extent of the problem a bit more. Then, if the results of the xray/scan show anything that won't be curable with a bit of rest and some physio, I would probably pts. I would also try to get more answers out of the breaker and the previous owner - not necessarily for the purposes of bringing a claim but because I think this little horse deserves them to be honest for his sake, so that you can take a fully informed view.
 
Let's look at this logically. The horse has soft tissue injury which has been found by a body worker. If any diagnostics are used which do not identify bone problems, then nobody has learned anything new. If x rays are done and they are clear, then the horse has probably treatable soft tissue injury. If they are not clear, then it will be much more obvious whether it will be worth treating the soft tissue injury which the horse has sustained.

It's a no brainer for me that x rays of the back should be the next step with this horse. Or is my logic chip malfunctioning?
 
cptrayes said:
Let's look at this logically. The horse has soft tissue injury which has been found by a body worker. If any diagnostics are used which do not identify bone problems, then nobody has learned anything new. If x rays are done and they are clear, then the horse has probably treatable soft tissue injury. If they are not clear, then it will be much more obvious whether it will be worth treating the soft tissue injury which the horse has sustained.

It's a no brainer for me that x rays of the back should be the next step with this horse. Or is my logic chip malfunctioning?
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I guess this is in response to my post about asking the vet whether a scan or xrays are the best option. My logic for this is that I have had both done on my own back (not my horse). The xrays showed up only bones. The scan showed up bones, discs, muscles - pretty much everything that is beneath my skin basically. The xray was useless as my problem was a disc prolapse, disc degeneration and severe muscle probs, both of which the scan showed clearly but xray would not. So my point was that if the same principle applies to the technology of x-raying or scanning a horse (and I can't see why it wouldn't), then I would recommend Breez to speak to the vet about the best option. If I am right, then a scan could well be better value for money than an x-ray. So for me, it would be equally as much of a no-brainer to ask the vet whether I was right!
 
Henry02 said:
What sort of "scan" would a horse have to show all of that lot?
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As I said in both my posts, I was coming at it from the perspective of how the technology works with humans, hence I suggested OP ask her vet for the best option including likely costs. I have no idea whether the technology exists to just scan the relevant part of this horses back or the associated cost but I am confident her vet will.
 
I'm guessing you mean you had an MRI/CT scan? Only bits of horses can be done using this technology, and it costs thousands.

If it was me, I'd contact a thermal imager, and see if they could fit me in within the next week, if not I'd probably get the horse booked in to the vets for X-rays of it's back, and probably check for ulcers at the same time, and quite possibly if it's a mare to get the ovaries scanned. After that I probably wouldn't be doing an awful lot more if nothing was found on those three tests
 
Fun Times said:
As I said in both my posts, I was coming at it from the perspective of how the technology works with humans, hence I suggested OP ask her vet for the best option including likely costs. I have no idea whether the technology exists to just scan the relevant part of this horses back or the associated cost but I am confident her vet will.
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How I wish we could all be so confident. But when revenues of over a thousand pounds for one diagnostic tool are up against two hundred for another, I'm less than confident that all vets would go for x rays. But in the OPs position, I can see no other option. There's a limit to how much more money she can throw at this horse, and x rays, I think, are the most likely to give her an answer for least cost.
 
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Could you have a scintigraphy done? This is not as expensive as an MRi and is good for areas where sometimes x-rays cannot penetrate deep enough. This, I believe would highlight bony issues as well as possibly other causes of a problem?
I sort of know your pain as I commented earlier having a youngster who has exploded under saddle. I have had a saddle made for him now and am sending him away for re-backing (i initially just did it myself) so time will tell if I am dealing with a physical or mental issue with him.
 
Thanks for the responses (and sympathies), guys. It's good to hear differing opinions. I've calmed down a little from yesterday, but I'm still unsure what to do. I know that x-rays are the logical step forward but I can see the bills snowballing very quickly, all for a horse who has only been here a number of weeks. He's a fab guy, but it's not like I'm on a yard where he can be thrown out for the winter to sort himself out and I doubt I have the experience to fully re-start him if/when the time comes. If I get a professional involved, it means that the best possible outcome will still cost thousands.

He's not in pain in the field, he trots up sound. It's only when weight / pressure is applied over that vertebra that he hurts. I will speak to the vet about options and costs, but what's the likelihood of an insurance company paying out at all when there is enough thickened tissue to tell them that I bought him with the condition? They've thrown the "pre-existing, horse came with the condition whether you were aware of it or not" card at me before.

He's a gelding, so no ovaries or such to scan. He shows no symptoms of ulcers, he eats well, holds weight well, he's never grumpy, only the back pain which looks to stem from that one point on the spine.

I think my logic chip fell flat on it's face and went on strike around 5pages back. Another horsey nightmare. I swear I attract them :(

ETA: re: scintigraphy (I never have any idea how to spell that!), I was under the impression you were looking at around the £1500 mark for it to be done? I could be wrong, that's pure hear-say, but it sounds like a rather expensive option.
 
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The last I knew, a scintigraph was at least as expensive as an MRI And requires a longer hospital stay too, because the horse is radioactive for days.
 
I thought scintigraphy was most useful when you had no clear idea where the problem was or if it was felt there were several areas of concern and wanted to find the primary issue, it is not a complete diagnostic in that it only points to the areas that will then require xrays or scans to give a full diagnosis, you know where he is hurting so it makes sense to go in and xray, if nothing shows you may have to think again but it is far less expensive than anything else available and may well give a conclusive answer.
 
Well as I've said before, I'd go for the thermal imaging scan first, just to see if it throws up problems elsewhere, ie lameness in a leg.

Ulcers can also cause chronic back pain as well, I know someone that had a horse with a long standing case of ulcers, and the horse needed regular physio visits for a while to get it sorted.
 
cptrayes said:
How I wish we could all be so confident. But when revenues of over a thousand pounds for one diagnostic tool are up against two hundred for another, I'm less than confident that all vets would go for x rays. But in the OPs position, I can see no other option. There's a limit to how much more money she can throw at this horse, and x rays, I think, are the most likely to give her an answer for least cost.
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What an odd response. My post stated I would have confidence that the vet knows what diagnositic tools are available and the likely cost. I would have thought that to be fairly basic advice from any vet. Whether or not a person trusts their vet to steer them in the right direction is an entirely different thread and doesn't relate to my comment. Incidentally I am not disagreeing with your view of getting xrays, simply posted that it would be worth asking vet about all viable diagnostic options and cost. Presumably not a too objectionable comment?
 
My vets are pretty good at asking "is he insured" and then going from there. They are also very, very good at writing up case notes with insurance claims in mind. My sisters mare had kissing spines, she was treated with a course of injections. I think the xrays and treatment were in the mid hundreds, not thousands.

What a nightmare for you. I'm really sorry, and I hope you find a simple and low cost resolution :)
 
Fun Times said:
What an odd response. My post stated I would have confidence that the vet knows what diagnositic tools are available and the likely cost. I would have thought that to be fairly basic advice from any vet. Whether or not a person trusts their vet to steer them in the right direction is an entirely different thread and doesn't relate to my comment. Incidentally I am not disagreeing with your view of getting xrays, simply posted that it would be worth asking vet about all viable diagnostic options and cost. Presumably not a too objectionable comment?
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I think you gave taken my response too personally? Objectionable simply does not come into it. Logically, knowing the options and the costs, I see x rays as the obvious next step, that's all.
 
I guess the best thing to do, which is what you are probably going to do anyway, is ask your vet what they think the best diagnostic tool is. The thing is, having worked in equine insurance for a few years I've seen many claims where they x-ray, don't get a clear diagnosis and then go down the route of MRi or scintigraphy anyway so the costs just add up.
If you have insurance and the problems started 14 days after the inception of your policy you should be covered and they can't say it was pre-existing really as it's something you have just discovered. Certainly if you have a pre-purchase vet cert then that would help back that up.
You know, you've only had him a few weeks. Best case scenario is he could just be very, very sore, either muscle and/or other soft tissue wise and it will take time for injuries /damage to heal and for him to stop having spasms or indeed just remembering and associating certain things with pain. Oh, have you checked /changed girth type as well? We think mine may be very sensitive around his girth area and that is part of his problem.
 
I'm in agreement with cpt - no way I would be doing anything other than xraying (if I decided to do that - may depend on what you paid for him) Fun Times all other diagnostic tools available are very expensive making them pretty unviable for the OP and generally not the place to start for most people. If no kissing spines presume soft tissue and rest/treat with aid of physio/osteo if you like him enough to think it worth it - as rest isn't always 'free'. If he has KS I think it all depends on the severity as to whether steroid injections might help (ie not too expensive) or if he isn't worth persisting with.
 
I would turn him away for the whole winter and then try again in the spring, using the money you have saved on x rays to pay for a decent pro.
Sometimes I think we are desperate to fix things by throwing money at them (not aimed at you, OP) and sometimes just a few months rest can do so much.
 
X-rays should cost max of £300... So about two weeks of a pros time, not to mention all the livery to pay over winter, whilst the horse is quite possibly in a reasonable amount of pain!
 
Henry02 said:
X-rays should cost max of £300... So about two weeks of a pros time, not to mention all the livery to pay over winter, whilst the horse is quite possibly in a reasonable amount of pain!
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If it is ligament or muscular pain then it may get worse rather than better by being turned away untreated, it is certainly no guarantee, for the cost xrays must be worth doing, if inconclusive then possibly do some physio then rest until next spring.
 
OP, I would get him xrayed, and his saddle checked by a master saddler.

My home bred 5 yo has had problems with his back, he is quite sensitive and will tell you when he's not 100%. Putting back up, flinching for rug, and a couple of times has bronked. He's a very careful jumper, so when he has more than one pole I know he's not right.

He had a brand new saddle fitted, teeth done and back done. But we would still have issues. We did. Full lameness check with X-rays. Completely sound, and no issues with kissing spines. Vet agreed with osteo, in that he had an usual amount of movement in his back end, and when he jumps really flicks his back end, resulting in him regularly pulling muscles.

So we have started using a Pessoa, to improve his strength, plus we got an experienced master saddler out as his jockey was complaining her back ached in his saddle. It only turns out that the saddle is completely wrong for him, too long not wide enough, I could go on.

We've changed saddles, and now no issues with his back as yet.

All I'm saying is, it's so easy to think the worst, I know I did. The X-rays of his back cost me £150, and a saddle check £40. Well worth it as he's now a happy chilled out chappie.

Good luck x
 
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