Explosive behaviour from 4yo... opinions, please?

[Breez]

Running on very little sleep at the moment, I'll reply properly later on.

I'm in agreement with cpt - no way I would be doing anything other than xraying (if I decided to do that - may depend on what you paid for him)

1200. Would that sway your decision?

Oh, have you checked /changed girth type as well? We think mine may be very sensitive around his girth area and that is part of his problem.

Yep, we've faffed with girths. He can be a bit sensitive in standard synthetics ones, so he's in a padded English leather girth nowadays. As stated, he's quite happy to be tacked up, he's not fussed about the girth being tightened, and he'll lunge well when wearing tack, providing there's no rider on board.

Livery costs will amount to around 1500 over winter where we are, obviously plus whichever diagnostics / treatment we go ahead with. I don't have anywhere that I can just "throw him in a field" for a few months. I don't know. The thought of paying out thousands (scans, x-rays, various treatments, professional restarting, etc) on a horse that I'm unsure will come right in the end (when he was sold to me that way!) just makes me want to sit in a corner and cry. Over the past 2 years, I've lost my horse of a lifetime to colic, aged 6, and persevered with a mis-sold project to find out it was all too much in the end. Now this.

I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill, but I'm feeling rather down about it all at the moment.

 

[mystiandsunny]

The only caution I'd give is that you've been told that turning him away for 3 months then trying again is a good idea. If this is an injury sustained at the breaker's, then he's been turned away already since the injury and it didn't fix anything.

Personally, I would x-ray (I'd want to know that the problem was just soft-tissue and nothing more). I'd also try a period of box rest and see if the inflammation reduced.

 

[Breez]

The only caution I'd give is that you've been told that turning him away for 3 months then trying again is a good idea. If this is an injury sustained at the breaker's, then he's been turned away already since the injury and it didn't fix anything.

Personally, I would x-ray (I'd want to know that the problem was just soft-tissue and nothing more). I'd also try a period of box rest and see if the inflammation reduced.

As far as I'm aware, he returned from the breaker's early May. We're now in mid August, so 3 and a half months on. Point taken - a very good one at that.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Yas - a good idea, though I'm not sure of any holistic vets that cover this area? I'm Midlands based. I'd be surprised if he didn't show any of this behaviour at the breaker's, however getting her to admit such a thing may be another story. I know it was claimed that he took a lot of leg and wasn't particularly forward (odd for a fairly sharp 4yo PBA?), but it was also claimed that he didn't misbehave.

I agree that he definitely needs vet treatment, the question really is who should be administering it. Perhaps Osteo to confirm findings, then blunt discussion with previous owner? His hind end does show a noticeable weakness, and physio's wording was "chronic injury" being the most likely cause. Possibly all linked to the back pain, but at the same time she said that violent bronking can also cause such back tension. 6 of one... half a dozen of the other... which caused which we just don't know.

My head is saying he needs to go back. My heart is still arguing the case. I don't have the funds or facilities for a welfare case / real problem horse that may not come right. Bah.

My WB was diagnosed at Newmarket with chronic sacro iliac dysfunction. That diagnosis FYI cost nigh on £4,000. I then had him treated by Donna Blinman at Higham. I had 3 alternative therapies prior to Newmarket - an iridology analysis of his eyes, a communication and a shiatsu session. All 3 totalled less than £100 they all said that he had an upper r/h hind injury and pain in left shoulder. They did not say the injury was chronic though and I needed the Newmarket diagnosis to get LOU. He is sound now but nearly 3 years on and after a lot of rehab and heartbreak.
So my point is if you believe this is a chronic injury think carefully about keeping him. I have 4 horses so my WB wasn't my only ridden horse. Had he been and had I had to use livery I think the situation would have proved too expensive and stressful.

 

[Clodagh]

The only caution I'd give is that you've been told that turning him away for 3 months then trying again is a good idea. If this is an injury sustained at the breaker's, then he's been turned away already since the injury and it didn't fix anything.
.

That is very true, and a good point.
There scomes a point when you, OP, have to decide how much money you want to throw at him and go the dark option once that is exceeded. I would, and have done that in the past.

 

[cptrayes]

This is probably going to get me a barrage of criticism, but if you paid 1200 for the horse I would send one letter from a solicitor to the sellers, then have him shot if they will not take him back. To get him right, whatever is wrong with him, he's going to cost you that again many times over. And there is no guarantee he will come right. And you have done your fair share of paying for sick and bad horses. You need to put yourself first with this one.

The price itself is deeply suspicious. £1200 for a horse they had paid to have professionally broken?

 

[tinap]

The cost of xrays surprised me when we had ours done - 2 done, at home on a portable xray machine of a leg came to just over £80. Personally I'd speak to the vet, say you want to keep it as cheap as possible as even though he's insured, you may not decide it is worth putting him through a lot of treatment if it's something serious. See if anything is obvious from xrays & then decide where to go from there.

I know which route I would go down if it was something that was very serious & potentially expensive to only possibly rectify, but there is also a chance it may not be as bad as you think. I don't think I could ever send him back as then you don't know what the outcome for him would be. Wishing you all the luck with him & sending hugs for a horrible situation xx

 

[ester]

This is probably going to get me a barrage of criticism, but if you paid 1200 for the horse I would send one letter from a solicitor to the sellers, then have him shot if they will not take him back. To get him right, whatever is wrong with him, he's going to cost you that again many times over. And there is no guarantee he will come right. And you have done your fair share of paying for sick and bad horses. You need to put yourself first with this one.

The price itself is deeply suspicious. £1200 for a horse they had paid to have professionally broken?

No, I think that I would agree that is very much the pragmatic thing to do. Good point by those that say he has already had time off presuming an accident at the breakers.

 

[AmyMay]

The price itself is deeply suspicious. £1200 for a horse they had paid to have professionally broken?

My thoughts too. I thought we were talking about something that was at the least around £4k, if not higher.

I'd still get the horse x-rayed - I think it's owed that. After that, well I don't disagree with cptrayes if the outcome looks expensive (or bleak).

Terribly sad.

 

[Breez]

I'm on mobile, so poor replies, sorry.

This is probably going to get me a barrage of criticism, but if you paid 1200 for the horse I would send one letter from a solicitor to the sellers, then have him shot if they will not take him back. To get him right, whatever is wrong with him, he's going to cost you that again many times over. And there is no guarantee he will come right. And you have done your fair share of paying for sick and bad horses. You need to put yourself first with this one.

The price itself is deeply suspicious. £1200 for a horse they had paid to have professionally broken?

They claim they will take him back, but no refund. Re: the price, it was a "good home more important than price", and was reflecting the current market. They've recently come forward with the fact that the breaking itself cost £800, for 8wks. Great value, right?

 

[honetpot]

Send him back then and let them have the worry. You may lose £1200 but you will not be paying out anymore or have the decision what to do with him if he gets no better.
I have two ready for breaking but have no one to ride them out after breaking so I have put it on hold. Ones I have sold in the past you have been able to take down the road and canter on a hack, that is what I would call basic breaking. If I was the breeder I would be so upset I would want it back and probably give the money back as well, most small breeders do it for love and want to see their animals do well and the price they get is just a by product of their hobby. If any thing I bred or I had sold on was having problems I would want to know and if possible help.
Just after Christmas I heard that one that we had owned 10 years ago was being sold, if the owner had trouble selling I would have agreed a price and he would have come home. I am not a dealer but any pony I have sold I would happily have back. Fortunately the pony has found a new young rider.

 

[ester]

I'm on mobile, so poor replies, sorry.



They claim they will take him back, but no refund. Re: the price, it was a "good home more important than price", and was reflecting the current market. They've recently come forward with the fact that the breaking itself cost £800, for 8wks. Great value, right?

No, I would rather spend the money on PTS/send him for meat rather than they get a horse back and keep all the money for being crap with the truth, that's not how it works!

So yes, still solicitors letter requesting return for refund.

 

[JoannaC]

I wouldn't send him back either without a refund. What's to stop them playing the same trick on someone else.

 

[superpony]

I'm on mobile, so poor replies, sorry.



They claim they will take him back, but no refund. Re: the price, it was a "good home more important than price", and was reflecting the current market. They've recently come forward with the fact that the breaking itself cost £800, for 8wks. Great value, right?

There is no way I would give him back as them for no refund. A others have said they will probably just sell him on again.

Personally I would get the vet out, discuss with them and if need be have xrays then go from there. Then you have the information to work with and can plan what to do next.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm on mobile, so poor replies, sorry.



They claim they will take him back, but no refund. Re: the price, it was a "good home more important than price", and was reflecting the current market. They've recently come forward with the fact that the breaking itself cost £800, for 8wks. Great value, right?

Exactly, the price suggests that the backing went wrong and they knew it. Incidentally, so might the amount of time he was there. Two months is a long time for a breaking livery.

Even in this market, a decently put together broken four year old should have been at least twice the price.

I would not send him back to them or they will sell him again and break someone else's heart.

 

[Breez]

Exactly, the price suggests that the backing went wrong and they knew it. Incidentally, so might the amount of time he was there. Two months is a long time for a breaking livery.

Even in this market, a decently put together broken four year old should have been at least twice the price.

I would not send him back to them or they will sell him again and break someone else's heart.

In hindsight, yes. It does. They seemed very genuine people who wanted the best for a beautiful horse that they bred, and with how cheap horses are at the moment I didn't think too much of the price. They were more concerned about him going to the right home rather than the money they made. So I thought, anyway.

He will not go back for nothing, as I wouldn't want anyone else being put in the same position. I hate the horsey world at times.

 

[Echo Bravo]

If you send him back, they will just sell him on so making more money. Give him the time and start from basics again.

 

[Voxhorse]

Hi OP, This thread has made me seeth, it's nasty people like this who ruin the horse world reputation (sorry to state the obvious).

Anyway, will take him back but no refund is almost like saying it is somehow your fault, disgusting attitude (emotional blackmail) after all the stress you have suffered not knowing what do do.....I would dig your heels in and say NO!!!! a full refund should you wish to return him, or you take the matter further and be firm!! they may think you are too nice to take it further.

Feel really bad for you & horse, and these people make me sick to my stomach, don't care about horses, only themselves & making cash!!

Good Luck xxx

 

[Voxhorse]

If you send him back, they will just sell him on so making more money. Give him the time and start from basics again.

Yep, hopefully OP can do this!

 

[Breez]

Hi OP, This thread has made me seeth, it's nasty people like this who ruin the horse world reputation (sorry to state the obvious).

Anyway, will take him back but no refund is almost like saying it is somehow your fault, disgusting attitude (emotional blackmail) after all the stress you have suffered not knowing what do do.....I would dig your heels in and say NO!!!! a full refund should you wish to return him, or you take the matter further and be firm!!

Believe me, I feel the same. I think her point is that she thinks it is my fault - professional disagrees, but she's still convinced that he was fine when he left her. Or at least that's what she says.

The bottom line is whether to persevere (hence trying out get a basic idea of costs of these type of issues via here), solicitors letters (which to be honest, I doubt will work with her), rehome him and write off the purchase price, or pts. The last, I don't particularly want to do - he has too much of a lovely demeanor to write him off completely. Still feel slightly stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[cptrayes]

Breez how can you rehome him without there being a big risk that he will end up in the wrong place, be ridden in pain and break another person's heart?

Please, please either get his problems diagnosed and sorted yourself, or have him put down.

 

[AmyMay]

Breez how can you rehome him without there being a big risk that he will end up in the wrong place, be ridden in pain and break another person's heart?

Please, please either get his problems diagnosed and sorted yourself, or have him put down.

Once again, I completely agree.

 

[ladyt25]

I think he's very young and you've not had him that long so I personally don't think making decisions like putting to sleep is right at the moment.
Have the physical checks done, it is highly likely there's nothing wrong. Then at least you know where you stand.
Give him time, don't try him with a saddle. If you can then enlist the help of someone who works with natural horsemanship techniques and get him working on the ground and build up trust.
This morning I have just re-tried putting a saddle and girth on mine. Ok doing it all up but he went to panic again when asked to turn. I do not believe my horse is in true physical pain - he was at one stage due to me getting the saddle wrong initially. However, I think he feels something he's not keen on and panics due more to memory or association.
I am not capable of getting him through it and so he is going to someone I trust to re-start.
IF I am wrong and she feels it's not just a memory issue then we will then have to deal with it.
Some are very very sensitive
They ger a fright, have some pain and then it's a case of making sure you get everything right to get them through that but it is not quick. Mine is now 5 and has had over a year of not being sat on
on. I am hopeful that not too far in the distant future I will have the nice, happy, confident ridden horse back and one day all this will be nothing more than a memory.
Like you, I know I have a nice horse that wants to work, wants to please bur something is stopping that happening at the moment.
I have actually looked into and have spoken to an animal communicator but have not as yet had one to see him. I am still very tempted if it will shed any light!

 

[mystiandsunny]

Just to add also - I have never known a horse to have a completely different temperament under saddle compared to the temperament they display on the ground, UNLESS there is a pain issue involved, or past mental trauma. Horses don't just decide to be awkward.

Often, physical issues can be resolved - the issue simply is, can the issues your horse has, be resolved for the money you have available. If the physical issues you have found heal (e.g. on box rest, with therapy/whatever), you will then have to work through the horse's fear of the pain he is expecting to come, and then with any physical weakness/likelihood of recurrence left behind.

If you find that they are secondary to a mental trauma, be aware that sort of thing can take years to fix. It took me two years with the last horse I took on who had a traumatic backing experience (again at the hands of professionals, interestingly enough!). Two long years, where there were times when I was really worried about my own safety. In the end I had a wonderful, relaxed and happy horse who I could trust 100%, but it wasn't an easy road to get there! I did at least know about that horse's issues when I bought her though!

 

[ester]

I think he's very young and you've not had him that long so I personally don't think making decisions like putting to sleep is right at the moment.
Have the physical checks done, it is highly likely there's nothing wrong. Then at least you know where you stand.
Give him time, don't try him with a saddle. If you can then enlist the help of someone who works with natural horsemanship techniques and get him working on the ground and build up trust.
This morning I have just re-tried putting a saddle and girth on mine. Ok doing it all up but he went to panic again when asked to turn. I do not believe my horse is in true physical pain - he was at one stage due to me getting the saddle wrong initially. However, I think he feels something he's not keen on and panics due more to memory or association.
I am not capable of getting him through it and so he is going to someone I trust to re-start.
IF I am wrong and she feels it's not just a memory issue then we will then have to deal with it.
Some are very very sensitive
They ger a fright, have some pain and then it's a case of making sure you get everything right to get them through that but it is not quick. Mine is now 5 and has had over a year of not being sat on
on. I am hopeful that not too far in the distant future I will have the nice, happy, confident ridden horse back and one day all this will be nothing more than a memory.
Like you, I know I have a nice horse that wants to work, wants to please bur something is stopping that happening at the moment.
I have actually looked into and have spoken to an animal communicator but have not as yet had one to see him. I am still very tempted if it will shed any light!

The problem is that the physical checks can cost quite a lot of money, and require expensive treatment and you can't assume for example that if he doesn't have kissing spines there isn't something else causing his reaction. I disagree and think it is highly unlikely there is nothing wrong - both a physio and osteo have said as such- and that it would be totally wrong to proceed with working him in anyway without ensuring he is comfortable

 

[ladyt25]

Sorry, what I meant was the OP doesn't have to think the worse, ie kissing spines. Yes I agree there's some discomfort/pain issue but with every horse being different it could be the tissue damage and muscle spasms that are the issue. X-rays could hopefully put the OP's mind at rest that the problems may well be more easily fixable with time, physio and sone basic building up from the ground.

 

[millikins]

I had a beautiful, sweet 6 yr old put down with a similar story to yours. Mine had an old pelvic/hip injury which he had coped with when unbroken. I thought about gentle hack, companion home but given his age and looks; flashy blagdon type which would appeal to certain unsavoury elements and not a good companion as wouldn't stay out alone, decided that as I couldn't offer him a certain future he should be pts. Even without scintigraphy (sp) the diagnostic tests and vet/physio cost £2k +. It was a heartbreaking decision but I've never felt it was the wrong one. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[hairycob]

millikins -for a moment I thought you are someone I know who had a very similar story. She went over £5k in diagnostics & treatment but he was still pts at 6. I really feel for OP having seen my friend go through so much. Her horse didn't explode but his back legs collapsed under her.

 

[Voxhorse]

Believe me, I feel the same. I think her point is that she thinks it is my fault - professional disagrees, but she's still convinced that he was fine when he left her. Or at least that's what she says.

The bottom line is whether to persevere (hence trying out get a basic idea of costs of these type of issues via here), solicitors letters (which to be honest, I doubt will work with her), rehome him and write off the purchase price, or pts. The last, I don't particularly want to do - he has too much of a lovely demeanor to write him off completely. Still feel slightly stuck between a rock and a hard place.

It's a terrible situation to be in, I would be in bits. Don't know how she can think it's your fault, you have had him for too small a time to have damaged him in any way, they will do as much blag and bluff as possible to avoid paying you back. Have you spoken with anyone about it in the Legal profession ? when we get caught between the devil and the deep blue sea it's very difficult to think clearly and make decisions. Wish I had a magic wand.....

 

[AmyMay]

Any update re the vet, op?