Express Eventing - Make your own mind up.

I, personally, feel that's it's up to the competitors to say whether it should be done again. I didn't witness Mary's accident but could it not have happened anywhere? The pro's will know whether it can be done again.
 
Looks fantastic IMO! I must admit to being very confused reading the other threads where people were saying that a stadium was too small to use - there is a lot of room if used wisely and personally I don't think the questions came up too quickly if the necessary prep was done. OT looked to ride a blinding round, and it didn't look ridiculously fast to me.

Some of the fences were bigger than I was expecting to see, but these are world class horses.

Thanks for that DD, I do hope they do it again as I think it looked great fun!
 
I dont think it should happen again.

It was to dangerous. To have one very near accident and one accident is just horrible.

For that few to complete was also terrible.

I was there btw
 
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For that few to complete was also terrible.



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It was terrible - but maybe they should have learnt the course? How many got eliminated for taking the wrong course 5? That would have nearly doubled the number of finishers
 
I too thought Oli rode a fab round!!!
William was very lucky to get away with it at those hedges!!! But i read somewhere else on the forum that he broke the top of one of the corners?? but i didn't notice anything like that on the video...

That said, i don't think watching two rounds gives a true picture of the event.. as althoug Oli's round was great, WFPs looked a bit uncomfey, and that's not normally something we'd say about him!!!!
 
I agree they should have learnt the course, it was printed in the programme so surely they could have learnt roughly were they were going (as we all do in dressage tests). we even helped a few going no and this way!!!

Those Vids show that when the competitors went the right way we really cheered!!! My throat hurts now!!
 
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I too thought Oli rode a fab round!!!
William was very lucky to get away with it at those hedges!!! But i read somewhere else on the forum that he broke the top of one of the corners?? but i didn't notice anything like that on the video...



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It was Mark Todd that broke the corner not WFP. 2 videos doesn't give a true picture of the event, but it does show how much space there was between the fences and what they were like
 
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Looks fantastic IMO! I must admit to being very confused reading the other threads where people were saying that a stadium was too small to use - there is a lot of room if used wisely and personally I don't think the questions came up too quickly if the necessary prep was done. OT looked to ride a blinding round, and it didn't look ridiculously fast to me.

Some of the fences were bigger than I was expecting to see, but these are world class horses.

Thanks for that DD, I do hope they do it again as I think it looked great fun!

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I don't think that video does justice to the fliers OT took - yes, he was careful, accurate and rode well through the combinations, and all credit to him, but he took strides out all over the place - the two he took out before the cannon still makes my blood run cold - and it is that which made me feel he took unnecessary risks, not the combination fences which he tackled very stylishly.
 
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For that few to complete was also terrible.



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It was terrible - but maybe they should have learnt the course?

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Maybe, but i just think it didnt work, which is why they forgot the course etc.

The dressage was great though (well for dressage!) - apart from ALW and Arlene!
 
From the videos you have posted, it looks like beefed up JAS, but obviously with 'proper' portable fences.
I do think that OT's showjumping experience gave him an advantage and also his (unpopular on here) desire to win, which made him ride in a more 'committed' way.
I don't think there is anyone to blame as such, but there are plenty of lessons to be learnt by organisers, designers and in particular riders.
So so sorry about Cavvy, but unfortunately horses are so fragile and accidents are just accidents. Thoughts with Mary and all of his connections.
 
My thoughts - Oli rode an outstanding classy round.
William was lucky, where he got away with things a few others didn't.

Remember a lot of the eliminations were for errors of course.

There were however some classy horses that couldn't cope with the xc there today, I personally would have like to see some more viable but time consuming alternatives for those horses that had gone a bit green in the ring and who were not 100% focussed on the job.

And shame on the course builders for asking horses to jump something that could so easily have been banked (and was) and yet was not safe enough to hold a horses weight. Mark Todd and Gandolf had a lucky escape there ...
 
Thanks for posting that. It looks like an awkward cross between cross country and showjumping, and those good rounds looked uncomfortable. The results are unsurprising really. Unforgiving fixed fences of that height and technicality are bl**dy challenging enough out on cross country, they don't belong in a little, spooky stadium. I bet those horses wondered what the hell was going on!
 
I was there and watched.
Personally the ones that completed made it look very easy but alot of the other horses (mainly the young ones) just weren't happy at all. It was a big and technical course, much more difficult than normal eventing courses IMO.
Cavvy was absolutely flying and it really was a freak accident that could have probably happened at any competition.
I have many videos and pictures but will not be posting any as I feel its inappropriate
 
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I was there and watched.
Personally the ones that completed made it look very easy but alot of the other horses (mainly the young ones) just weren't happy at all. It was a big and technical course, much more difficult than normal eventing courses IMO.
Cavvy was absolutely flying and it really was a freak accident that could have probably happened at any competition.
I have many videos and pictures but will not be posting any as I feel its inappropriate

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Should the riders have taken their younger horses there in the first place? I don't think they should have.
 
DD that was exactly my thought, much babying for the rest of the winter and spring for alot there
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I was there today, and thought the format really worked. I was stunned at the lack of bums on seats, which was a surprise considering tickets were given away as prizes and rewards by BE.
As for the sad sad moment that Cavalier fell, it honestly could have happened anywhere on any course, it was such an unlucky accident from a long stride. The whole placed was stunned and saddened as his fate seemed certain after he got to his feet. I do feel that some of the jumps were maybe a little technical considering how many fences were in the arena, but then how would we have felt if Oli had won £100k by having an easy trip??
 
this thread is much more productive than the other one, which is just slating it, which i dont think is fair.
i agree with all of this^^

if it runs again, i think people will do so much better, as they will know what to prepare for, and how to prepare for it.
 
I agree TracyP. I was there and right by the tragic fence so saw everything.
The mistakes made by others who should have known/ridden better were rider induced.
OT rode a blinder in both his dressage and the SJ/XC phase.
He set out to win and he did so why slag him off for that?
Had it all gone swimmingly then people would have moaned because they missed it.
There was a lamentable tragedy but (and I have posted my views and commisarations on another thread) SJ/XC in a risk sport and horses however brave are fragile as are humans.
Accidents happen, older bloggers will remember Beau Supreme on a televison HOYS and that tragedy did not bring about the demise of televised SJ.
Give this event a chance, and Mary you and Cavvy will be in everyones' thought tonight.
 
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I agree TracyP. I was there and right by the tragic fence so saw everything.
The mistakes made by others who should have known/ridden better were rider induced.
OT rode a blinder in both his dressage and the SJ/XC phase.
He set out to win and he did so why slag him off for that?
Had it all gone swimmingly then people would have moaned because they missed it.
There was a lamentable tragedy but (and I have posted my views and commisarations on another thread) SJ/XC in a risk sport and horses however brave are fragile as are humans.
Accidents happen, older bloggers will remember Beau Supreme on a televison HOYS and that tragedy did not bring about the demise of televised SJ.
Give this event a chance, and Mary you and Cavvy will be in everyones' thought tonight.

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hear hear
 
i was there today and thought it was a great concept but needed some fine tuning, good for oli but sad for mary, this was also an accident which could have happened anywhere and i don't think any blame should be put on EE. it was a huge loss to the sport and having had it happen to me i know how mary must be feeling.. please don't write the EE concept off just yet because i think with fine tuning and some guidence this could really catch on among to riders and i for one would really like ago.
 
For me, taking the Cav incident out of the day, I didnt enjoy it... apart from the few smooth rounds (OT, LW, CF and a few others) I didnt see any horses gain confidence as they went on, which for me was a shame, I saw the opposite, several horses lose confidence as they went on, which i dont think is the problem of the EE team, I think its just the general idea of it... If you think about it horses gallop/jump on adrenalin, especially in that situation, and it shuts down the blood supply from brain/organs and transfers it to muscles, meaning that after technical combinations horses need time to think before their presented to something else. My only 2 major criticisms of the EE team tbh were the time taken to get the trailer off the pitch once he was on it, and the corner incident after thebank with Gandalf, apart from that I thought alot of effort had gone into it... I just dont think that it is a concept that the majority of horse/rider combinations can cope with (the lack of galloping time to regather thoughts)... but I am prepared to accept that there are other viewpoints, just my very unvalid opinion of what I think I saw today!
 
It will be interesting to hear what the riders say about it, so many of them said, whilst being interviewed before and after their rounds, about their concerns with how it was going to go and the horses inability to know what was going on. I guess its the unknown element. Lucinda Green def. didn't look to be enjoying it we thought and she expressed concerns over the horses ability to cope with the challenge.

As said before I saw few horses grow in confidence with their rounds and they had no time to adjust/prepare and recover between obstacles as they came quick and fast compared with a "real" xc course. I guess if it happens again, people can prepare more and maybe it requires a more specialist horse, certainly not a youngster!

The video doesn't show OTs round like I saw in the arena, it was fast turns and fliers from where I was sat! He has a very special, genuine horse there.
 
Videos are great. oli rode well. But unless you were there you cannot imagine how scary it looked and felt. The videos do not show that.
 
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If you think about it horses gallop/jump on adrenalin, especially in that situation, and it shuts down the blood supply from brain/organs and transfers it to muscles, meaning that after technical combinations horses need time to think before their presented to something else.

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I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, the horses were probably thrown because they weren't used to jumping xc in that kind of environment, and I didn't go so I can't really comment on what it was like. However, I don't think I agree with your theory because what about SJers? I know that you don't get corners etc in SJing, but at the same time, GP courses are usually pretty technical and much bigger than you get in eventing - and look at the hickstead derby for example - loads of questions asked there and its surely not that different, as in the horses will all be running on adrenaline and there isn't much time to think before a new challenge....

Anyway, those videos don't make it look that bad to me. I'm not really an OT fan but he seemed to ride it perfectly in the circumstances. It certainly didn't look easy though, and I think modifications probably do need to be sorted out if they run it again - perhaps make the lines and distances a bit simpler and easier through the more technical combinations.

I'm of the opinion though that this is the kind of thing that will probably suit a certain type of horse/rider rather than favouring the normal top eventers. I definitely think experience of pure showjumping would only help the riders - only seen two of the videos and read all the threads about it, so this suggestion could be way off, but it sounds to me like it could be the riders struggling more than the horses. After all, horses never know what jump is coming up next on a xc course, they only know as soon as they see it and have to react, but perhaps some of the riders struggled to cope with reacting quick enough to get their horses properly balanced/straight/set up for the next fence? Just a thought as obviously I wasn't there.
 
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I agree with this. Yes, the horses were probably thrown because they weren't used to jumping xc in that kind of environment, and I didn't go so I can't really comment on what it was like. However, I don't think I agree with your theory because what about SJers? I know that you don't get corners etc in SJing, but at the same time, GP courses are usually pretty technical and much bigger than you get in eventing - and look at the hickstead derby for example - loads of questions asked there and its surely not that different, as in the horses will all be running on adrenaline and there isn't much time to think before a new challenge....


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The argument there, though, would be that GP showjumpers are hardly seeing something new, they're doing the thing they've been trained and prepared to do, literally for years. Yes, the demands increase but incrementally, while training and competition programs are planned to address and prepare for those demands. By the time a horse is jumping in a Derby or a big indoor show it's done smaller versions of similar classes in similar venues. (True, there are not many big Derbies in the world but any sj at that level will have jumped in the main rings at places like Hickstead or Spruce or Aachen, probably many times.)

I think you would see the same sorts and varieties of reactions in any group of horses presented with an unfamiliar situation and then asked questions. We all know horses that have gone to their first shows and hardly turned a hair, whereas others take more gradual and careful introduction. A year in you might not even be able to tell which horses reacted in which ways originally. But if you then present those horses with expanded/different requests you would not see the same reactions from all of them. Some horses are always cool and keep their heads, some don't take change well, no matter how well they do the familiar. Most cope well with some things, not so well with others. And not all react the same way to the same things. SOME of that is training and preparation but much of it is innate.

So in a situation like this, where established horses are being asked brand new questions, it stands to reason we will see a wide variety or reactions, not all of them expected. This is not a criticism or even a comment on EE in particular but I have to say I'm a bit surprised so many people are surprised some horses reacted as they did. Quite often with horses you do your best to read the clues and prepare accordingly but sometimes you don't know until you go.
 
No I know that, it is a slightly different situation.

What I am saying though is that I don't think it can be blamed on the fact that the horses are running on adrenaline and don't have time to think, because if you want to argue it on a physiological level, I don't believe it is any difference to a top showjumper running on adrenaline and having to react to jump big courses. They might be used to it, but they are still in the position where they don't know whats coming and have to react and think quickly to size up what they are being asked.

Eventers have to do it too in combinations - they don't know when they jump a fence if there are going to be 3 or 4 fences immediately afterwards so they have to think quickly then and react to what the rider guides them to do. That is why I don't believe you can argue that it is due to adrenaline preventing the horses from thinking quick enough.

That's not to say that many horses won't be fazed by something different to what they're used to, but I don't think there is a physical reason they are incapable of handling it.
 
I'm actually not arguing with you but I think it does partly depend on what one considers a "physical" limitation. One of the things training and exposure does is "teach" horses how to control their natural inclination to panic. This works better with some than others for all sorts of reasons. In SOME situations horses do indeed become so overwhelmed they don't react as expected (especially if they haven't been there before and therefore no one really knows what to expect). Jumping indoors in front of a crowd does reduce some horses to a considerably less ridable/different state - there are certainly sj'ers who do not do well indoors, even after concerted effort to acclimatise them.

By the same token, I think if we took 20 of the worlds top showjumpers out in a rough field and asked them to jump around even a moderate GP course we might see some interesting reactions. I suspect we might never see Meredith again!
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Sj'ers in a big indoor GP are certainly adrenalised, just as top eventers are doing what they are bred and trained to do. But they are, if prepared properly, OPTIMALLY adrenalised (or aroused, to use the more correct term) - a little is good, more is not better. No different from people - adrenalin is what's responsible for the heightened sensations of being "in the zone" but it's also part of the process that leads some people to make insane decisions under pressure or become paralysed by fear.

All I'm saying is horse react differently to pressure and SOME horses may have been so taken aback they simply ceased to function "normally". Honestly, that's to be expected. Just because they're 4* or similar horses doesn't mean they stop being horses.

So yes, I agree, horse can obviously be prepared (and chosen -it's not all nurture) to function optimally in such an environment. Some will even find it relatively easy, being naturally laid back and quick thinking (traits which go together in my experience). But some will struggle. My only point was that saying one group can do something (a task the horses are bred, trained, and managed to do) does not necessarily mean all the horses in another group will be able to cope as well without the same sort of preparation and management.

A human analogy might be driving a car. If you've been driving a car for decades reacting to the road is not a great hardship (hopefully
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). If you've been driving for a week there are actual physical reasons - mostly due to the effects of stress and the wiring of "habits" - why you will not be able to function as effectively in that environment, doing those tasks. That's the basis o the sweating, shaking, nausea, erratic reactions, confusion etc that plague many new drivers. Some people take to it easily because they are wired in a way that makes it easier to control their physical reactions, some have to work much harder at it and are far more likely to make mistakes in the mean time.

All totally moot as far as the original discussion. But the subject of adrenalin and related reactions (in both horses and riders) does impact on horse training and management in general as it's at the root of many problems.
 
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