extortionate prices for passports

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stormox

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If the authorities were serious about keeping records of horses up to date, surely making it easier and cheaper to change the owner, or name the horse on a passport would be better than just keep introducing laws to enforce it?
For example, my friend 'rescued' a very sad, thin Shetland colt from a low-class sale, paid 50 quid for him. When she got home, closer inspection of his passport revealed that it was the wrong one. However, he was microchipped, so checked the chip, found the passport agency, and found he had come from the Netherlands, he had originally had an official Dutch Shetland passport, which wasnt with him, so in order to get a duplicate she was meant to get a vet to check him for chip and ID and sign a form (cost £100) then apply for a duplicate passport (cost £263). Total cost of duplicate £363. Needless to say she sold it unpassported.
And I myself have just bought (out of pity and he had a nice face) a poor, very thin rainscalded bitten TB who had been thrown out in a boggy field since coming out of training in August. He actually has a passport- but it is going to cost £141 to get him a name then I have to pay more to transfer him to my name.
By no stretch of the imagination is it going to cost this for the offices to do the paperwork, so to my mind theyr out to make money, not help people get their horses registered.
 
can i ask a silly question?

if you have the microchip number for do you find out who the horses passport agency is?

not for me!! Levi is all fine with his passport but a girl on the yard with a little cob is having issues wile your friend with the Shetland!
 
theres a site- I think its called 'petmicrochiplookup'where you can enter the number and it tells you. If it doesn't know it will give you m'chip manufacturer (trovit or whatever) and you can get onto them andget which vet it was issued to. You can get the country m'chip was from by the first 3 digits of chip.
 
Stormox you are right about passport companies making maximum profits, they are private businesses existing to make a profit, not a public service provided by government to help people comply with legislation. I do not understand your complaint there.

Not all passport companies are expensive. The vet identification form carries costs which are partly determined by your vets call out fee which is expensive with some vets. I had one done in the days before microchipping and it was 25 for the ID card exam and 70 for the callout, plus 20 for the passport and 15 each for both myself and my horse to be registered members with the breed society which was a requirement for obtaining a passport. It will cost another 10 for the new owner to change ownership if I sell. There was also a small fee to change address when I moved home, I did not bother with this, have moved several times since and nobody has come looking for me! I later bought a horse with a generic passport from a non breed specific passport issuer and it was 15 to change ownership.

It is very bad luck if you happen to have bought horses passported with expensive passport issuers. Do you legally need to pay the naming fee for the racehorse? If someone issued the passport without a name then surely the microchip and ID form is sufficient?

This does not help you but you have made me think. In future if I go to buy a horse and the passport does not match, I will have the vet scan for a microchip and if none present get the ID card filled in before buying a cheap generic passport. If a microchip is already present but no passport I probably would not buy because I would be worried about being able to have veterinary treatment on a horse with no passport and not being able to get one due to there already being a microchip.
 
Firefly9410 said:
Stormox you are right about passport companies making maximum profits, they are private businesses existing to make a profit, not a public service provided by government to help people comply with legislation. I do not understand your complaint there.

Not all passport companies are expensive. The vet identification form carries costs which are partly determined by your vets call out fee which is expensive with some vets. I had one done in the days before microchipping and it was 25 for the ID card exam and 70 for the callout, plus 20 for the passport and 15 each for both myself and my horse to be registered members with the breed society which was a requirement for obtaining a passport. It will cost another 10 for the new owner to change ownership if I sell. There was also a small fee to change address when I moved home, I did not bother with this, have moved several times since and nobody has come looking for me! I later bought a horse with a generic passport from a non breed specific passport issuer and it was 15 to change ownership.

It is very bad luck if you happen to have bought horses passported with expensive passport issuers. Do you legally need to pay the naming fee for the racehorse? If someone issued the passport without a name then surely the microchip and ID form is sufficient?

This does not help you but you have made me think. In future if I go to buy a horse and the passport does not match, I will have the vet scan for a microchip and if none present get the ID card filled in before buying a cheap generic passport. If a microchip is already present but no passport I probably would not buy because I would be worried about being able to have veterinary treatment on a horse with no passport and not being able to get one due to there already being a microchip.
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Yes you have to name the race horse!! i am being charged to give Levi his "posh" name because he came with out it on his passport he only ever raced once as "levi" but the application for a name was with drawn (all long before i got him) its costing me £144!!!!!
 
Shavings said:
Yes you have to name the race horse!! i am being charged to give Levi his "posh" name because he came with out it on his passport he only ever raced once as "levi" but the application for a name was with drawn (all long before i got him) its costing me £144!!!!!
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But he must be named on his passport then! He could not have raced without it having been done. If he is named as Levi on his passport then thats his name as far as the PIO is concerned. You cant just change it.
Just a word from the wise if he genuinely has no name on his passport and you wish to compete in affiliated competition the disciplines have a scheme in place for wetherbys passport so the horse does not incurr those cost.
The problem with TB passports is you have to pay the full naming fee as the naming system is highly regulated and its very likely whatever you wish to call wont be available.
If you dont wish to do affiliated competition whats the issue just leave it blank. You can call him what you like.
 
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As above - if he raced he will have a name in his passport. This name can not be changed. If he has no name in his passport then he didnt race.

He could have breezed, flapped, schooled and galloped on a racecourse/sales nameless but not actually run nameless.
 
Was going to say exactly the same as Popsdosh!

I've also had unnamed TBs here and changed ownership details in their passport without having to register a name because they weren't going to race or for breeding TBs, I think it was £15 or similar.

Here are two Levi s; the bottom one ran in a point to point only but you don't get pt-to-pts in August. I'm not sure what MEM means.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/ho...=horse_race_record&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/ho...=horse_race_record&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form
 
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Firefly9410 said:
Stormox you are right about passport companies making maximum profits, they are private businesses existing to make a profit, not a public service provided by government to help people comply with legislation. I do not understand your complaint there.
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The problem is that it is mandatory for a horse to have a passport to comply with legislation so really people shouldn't profit from the actual passport itself.

I work as a Regulator and we are not allowed to make a profit out of people complying with legislation. That does not mean to say that we do not charge although sometimes we don't if GIA is provided. We can only charge what it costs us to carry out the work be that administration or regulation such as inspection and in many cases we do not get cost recovery. I think some of the prices here are extortionate and again shows the passport system for horses is a complete nonsense.
 
mem when referring to a point-to-point usually means member, as in the race is restricted to members of the organising hunt. You might get a pt-to-pt race in Ireland in the summer.
 
Maesfen said:
Was going to say exactly the same as Popsdosh!

I've also had unnamed TBs here and changed ownership details in their passport without having to register a name because they weren't going to race or for breeding TBs, I think it was £15 or similar.

Here are two Levi s; the bottom one ran in a point to point only but you don't get pt-to-pts in August. I'm not sure what MEM means.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/ho...=horse_race_record&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/ho...=horse_race_record&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form
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The bracketed suffix is the horses country of birth. I have no idea where a MEM is from though! That's a new one on me!
 
Maesfen, hes by subtle power out of miss liz(by beneficial) 2009 ch gelding... I think he was in racing til last summer-possibly in pre-training...
 
Most passport issuers charge about £50 for a duplicate or replacement passort in the UK. In most countries horses are livestock and come under the CAP and governments take the issue much more seriously. In Germany the studbooks rules come under the German Civil Code and many breeding issues become a criminal offence which is enforced. In the UK DEFRA do not do enforcement it is left to the Trading standards who are not funded by DEFRA to carry out this work so it has a low priority. Some PIOs in the UK like the BHHS have permission to do change of ownership for German Horses in this country now these include Hessen,Hannover,Rheinlander and Holstein and charge £15. Now the EU has told DEFRA they have to have a database which DEFRA cancelled and the UK studbooks advised DEFRA they should not cancel it and the Welfare organisations suddenly found it was nearly impossible to trace owners of horses even with microchips. Most EU countries started their chips with their country code 276 Germany 528 Holland but DEFRA say they cannot do that and it was further confused when someone started useing Belgium chips in the UK.
 
It makes me a little sad that my mare has no name on her passport, I guess her breeders didn't plan to race her.. Her sire and dam raced but neither what you could call a good record. Actually unsure why they bred her in the first place!
 
Why is it sad breeders didn't name the horse? They often leave it up to the first "race" owner to name the horse. What's the problem with that!
 
wench said:
Why is it sad breeders didn't name the horse? They often leave it up to the first "race" owner to name the horse. What's the problem with that!
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Because my first boy I had when passports were introduced, so I put his name on there of course... It's just looks like its incomplete. I never said its a problem, it's my personal opinion of my horse?..


ETA: sorry OP, went a bit off topic
 
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wench said:
Why is it sad breeders didn't name the horse? They often leave it up to the first "race" owner to name the horse. What's the problem with that!
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Exactly! Part of the fun of owning a racehorse is getting to name them!

OP - Your horse never raced, he went through the sales a few times as a youngster but never made it to the track at all. He has a full brother called Waddingtown Hero, a full sister who also never raced 2 full brothers that never raced and a half sister who also hasn't raced.
 
EKW did he go through the sales more than once?I could only find Tats in 2012 where he was unsold....... I suppose breeders don't name racehorses because they don't often keep them, and when they get sold their owners would want them racing in names theyd chosen.
 
I have an alleged ex racer from Ireland and his passport is a joke, it states his age as 12yrs old, yet the EDT put him at 20+, he has not one but 3 microchips in him, trying to trace his background proved impossible, not one of the microchip firms could find him, it is likely he has raced in the past, as he has been fired, but that is as much as we know
 
flirtygerty said:
I have an alleged ex racer from Ireland and his passport is a joke, it states his age as 12yrs old, yet the EDT put him at 20+, he has not one but 3 microchips in him, trying to trace his background proved impossible, not one of the microchip firms could find him, it is likely he has raced in the past, as he has been fired, but that is as much as we know
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If he was a racehorse he would have a name on his passport and there would be no doubt to his identidy
 
My new horses passport hadn't been updated by her previous owner. The breed society who issued it had ceased to exist and passports were being updated by Horse Sport Ireland. I wanted to also change her name. It cost me about £25 for vet to re-mark her and confirm her microchip number (used a free yard visit day) and approx £40 for passport in her new name with me as the owner. Good value? I'd say so!
 
flirtygerty said:
I have an alleged ex racer from Ireland and his passport is a joke, it states his age as 12yrs old, yet the EDT put him at 20+,
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Also I'd had more than one dentist age horses as older or younger than they are. Thats horses that I know the exact date of birth of. Ageing horses by teeth is really not an exact science and once they get past about 4yr old its nothing more than an educated guess :)
 
Royal Mail have lost one of mine, issued by Weatherbys. A replacement costs £37.50. fair enough, but can someone explain to me why, when the horse is microchipped, they need a vet to do a further markings document to prove it is the same horse? Doesn't anyone other than vets have a microchip readers and why do such issuing authorities not trust the chip info?
 
You must remember Weatherbys is not a studbook as such it is an organisation to control breeding of racehorses. The security of identity is crucial because of the money involved on race days and time is important. with studbooks like the BHHS who DNA all passported Hanoverians time is not so important. DNA testing costs our members £30 so confirmation by DNA works well. All Weatherbys microchips are made especially for them but they also rely on the markings. When you have millions of pounds at stake in racing the cost to criminals of surgically removing a chip from one horse and putting it in another identical horse is one they are willing to take and by the time a DNA sample is processed the betting money will have dissapeared.
 
JillA said:
Royal Mail have lost one of mine, issued by Weatherbys. A replacement costs £37.50. fair enough, but can someone explain to me why, when the horse is microchipped, they need a vet to do a further markings document to prove it is the same horse? Doesn't anyone other than vets have a microchip readers and why do such issuing authorities not trust the chip info?
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This is an interesting point as AFAIK there is a system being developed were the only passport the horse will have will be its MC all the details including vaccinations will be stored on it using the same technology as credit card chips
 
JillA said:
Royal Mail have lost one of mine, issued by Weatherbys. A replacement costs £37.50. fair enough, but can someone explain to me why, when the horse is microchipped, they need a vet to do a further markings document to prove it is the same horse? Doesn't anyone other than vets have a microchip readers and why do such issuing authorities not trust the chip info?
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Just out of interest did you use special delivery for it as they recommend you do. If you did they should cover cost of replacement.
 
surely, popsdosh, the horse would have to have a passport with markings on as well? Not many people go to buy a horse will have a scanner....so how would you know if it was the right horse?
 
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