facet joint changes and Supraspinous Ligament damge

loopylucifer

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ok my horse has provisionaly been diagnosised with Changes to the facet joints in the thoracic vertiabrea (T12 -14) and has damage to supraspinious Ligament too. Dont know much on these issues and not come across a horse with them so any experiances of either pls share (good and bad)
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EllieK

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Hi, my horse has arthritic facet joint changes in the late thoracic and early lumbar regions. We tried medicating the joints using steroids/ anti-inflamm. injections which didn't really help, actually if anything made him worse!
In the end he had a few weeks off work to 'chill' then we spent approx 1month working in long reins then under saddle to develop a strong top line which is what really helps. Jack works reasonably hard 6-7 days a week to maintain the correct muscle and top line to support the joints as best as possible. Also had regular physio and mcTim chiropractor sessions when bringing him back into work after his short break and the odd check up now when he needs it.
I tend to find his back is worse in cold weather and when he gets cold so he is kept well rugged and use exercise sheets through cool and cold weather to help mobilise joints. Otherwise, he is managed as a normal horse and works away well under saddle!

I had a lot of heart ache while we tried to diagnose the problems and the treatment / management was uncertain for quite a while. If I can help in any way (even just to let of steam to) please pm me!

Good luck!
 

loopylucifer

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thanks for the reply. i was feeling a bit like we were the only one. might pm yiou with some questions if thats ok. yes will second that hard work getting to this point esp as if has followed another injury still need to wait on firm diagniosis which means waiting for another scan which should hopefully show more detail.
 

Azbo

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Hi - I just found your thread as I'm looking for info on supraspinous ligament damage as the horse I help look after has been diagnosed with this. He's 6 year old WB/Arab X and I took him on a year ago. He's never been right but hadn't had consistent training so he was labelled 'badly behaved'. I though differently and after a long process of elimination we have this diagnoses. He's always bucked a lot, took months to get moving forward, When I started to take contact he took to stopping backing up and bucking (we got his teeth done and these were coursing him problems). His back had previously been checked by a physio who found not problems. He can go from being very loving to being incredibly grumpy. Canter work started to get tricky with him suddenly going disunited. Then shortly after I was schooling and he stopped dead and refused to move.

We called the Vet as it was clear he wasn't at all right. It was very clear that he was in quite some discomfort on his back. Gutted to think he may have had this pain for sometime albeit milder, persumably.

We are now most of the way through 6 weeks of lunging/long lining in Pesooa with three treatments of Shock Wave therapy, the last tomorrow. He goes back for assesment in two weeks at Wilisley.

I guess I just wanted to know how your horses did and any update? also to add our experience to what appears to be a not very common issue.
 

loopylucifer

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Hi Azbo
Sorry to hear your horse was diagnosied with supraspinous ligament damage. With mine vet was more concerned with the facet joint changes as that was probably causing more of a problem. Shockwave was suggested but it was decisded we had to treat the arthirits first as that was the more likey priamry problem, so had joint meds for this instead.
Its interesting to hear the symptoms as mine was much the same and we too had times when schooling especially on the right rein would just stop and refuse to move, most things which invloved the right rein we had issues with. we also had issues with her not going forwards and gernaraly being quite stuffy we also had bucking, disunited canter and a samll amount of rearing too.
it was last June she got diagnosied with this she had two lots of joint meds but showed only progress for a short amount of time ended up having the whole winter out in the field doing nothing. Started working her again (just hacking) after a vet check at the end of march this year all was good for the first couple of months then was getting quite unpradictable in her behaviour lots of being a general loon! she then went on a course of high dose bute and dramatical improved so stayed on one bute a day up until last month and has now gone lame so awaitng another trip to the vets. I have no idea if this is related to any of her back problems or something else. Im sure horses with this problem are normaly more stright forwards!
just out of interesd how was your diagnosised and where there any other issues?
 

Azbo

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Sorry to hear this, I hope she comes sound and you can start to make some progress again. Az AKA Azbo (the horse, I've nicked it) injured his leg on a completely unrelated incident the day the Vet came for his first assessment an was hopping lame. They often don't help themselves. I'm interested to know how things go for you.

Interesting about the right rein! We have similar issues with this rein. He's noticeably weaker on this hind although no obvious reason for this. We have just put it down to being young and not fully developed. He tends to lead with this leg when bucking.. Canter his preferred lead is with the right but he's better on the left rein and now he's learnt to lead with the left leg as well (he still has to think about it though).

He's always puzzled me, you call him and he gallops over, loves just hanging out with you, stands still to be tacked up, grooms you when you groom him and can generally be a very loving horse. But then next day he can be an absolute s**t, biting and refusing to do what he's asked when riding. I've never come across a horse like him before so its always troubled me as to why he can be so jackall and hyde in his temperament.

Having gone through teeth checks and saddle checks. Both proved to have needed sorting, his teeth were quite sharp and he'd grown out of his first saddle. He'd started to come together, taking contact and forward going. We were getting the starts of a nice outline and really starting to get him rounded over his back.

Then we couldn't get canter, he would run into it, no clean transition. The canter would be fine for a few paces, then he'd go disunited. He has been capable of clean flying changes so we have never discouraged this but he just didn't seem to be able to sort himself out. Then in early June I was warming up and asked him to trot and I could feel him tense through his body and slow right down. I tried to push him forwards and I could feel him tense even more and he was going to let rip with his backend. I was recovering from hurting my back after a fall in April whilst Jumping him (he's not done a lot and is very green). I knew I wasn't fit enough to ride his bucking at that stage so my trainer got on him and was nearly thrown off.

Called the Vet out to check him over he was very sore on his back, they though it was kissing spine so he was taken for x-ray and scan. The scan showed inflammation in the ligament and it looked like one of the dorsals was an odd shape so he's also had a bone scan. The bones, it turns out are all fine. Theres been no obvious injury, he does just gallop around the field bucking for kicks. Theres been no speculation from his Vet as to what has coursed it as I think they simply don't know.
 

loopylucifer

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Hi ya
Its really interesting reading your symptoms as this is exactly what mine was/is like. She had loads of physio and the physio could never work out why we never made any progress and kept going round in circles. She also just looked weak on that leg and always tried to avoid using that leg.
Intresting you say about the jackall and hyde temprament as she is just the same being a mare she is a bit up and down but got soo much worse.
As i said we always felt the main problem was the changes to the facet joints so will be interesting to hear your progress.
Good luck
 

nwilson012

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My mare has arthritis of the articular facet joints. She was diagnosed in May after bone scan and xrays because I felt she just wasn't right. I had only recently bought her as a just-backed 4 year old and she passed a 5 stage vetting. The symptoms you describe are similar - backing off the leg, stuffy, and occasionally felt like she hopped a bit, although there's no lameness on flexion tests. Her trot to walk transitions are diabolical. She sort of shuffles in front so the stride gets shorter and shorter before walking.

She's had a course of Tildren followed by 8 weeks lungeing in a pessoa and a couple of sessions with a McTimoney chiropractor. Now started light ridden work and we go back next week for her 12 week assessment.

I'm not sure how much improvement there's been. She's definitely more free in her back on the lunge but not great when I'm on her. It may be that the pessoa has built up the muscle on her topline which is supporting the facet joints. I also wonder whether she's worse with me riding because she remembers the pain, or because it still hurts her.

Have also invested in a Equilibrium massage pad. Too early to say whether that is helping, but my other horse is enjoying the massage!

Vet suggested follow up course of action will be either another Tildren, steroids or shockwave therapy. Will have to wait for the verdict before I know which it will be.
 

loopylucifer

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwilson012
Her trot to walk transitions are diabolical. She sort of shuffles in front so the stride gets shorter and shorter before walking.

quite agreed!

Should have also said dealing with another horse with Facet joint changes she has had joint medication, intensive physio, SI medicated too after back meds went sore there, and tildren and today after about 10months vet and physio were very pleased and hoped for a returen to full work!!
Inital she was just very sore tense couldn't work in a contact or stretch and was genrally very unhappy.
 

nwilson012

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Yesterday, for the first time, the trot to walk transitions improved. We've just started light ridden work (hacking) and I was able to push her up to the contact so that she stepped through into walk. And it worked! Hoping the vet will see an improvement next week.
 

towsie

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hi. has anyone with facet joint trouble experienced have trouble going up and down hills.my daughters horse has been diagnosed with this problem and has just come back into light work after 6 month off but he still has problems in hills. he cannot cope with this and goes into bucking and taking off which is what was happening before we new the problem.it seems that his working days are over after a year of trying 2 get him right.
 

loopylucifer

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Hi Towsie
With the two horses i have delt with they have both been different. I cant say either have had that sort of dramtic reaction to hills but then I havent put either in a position to do big hills. We are on the south downs so hills to us are big ones. they are fine with sloaps. Although one was very toe dragging but she also had S.I trouble as a result of compensating.
You say yours is coming back into work after 6months off how are you bring yours back into work? as it is the muscles are round the back that support it that need to be strong and flexiable to prevent over exertion on the back. Bringing these horses back into work is difficulut as they need to streantghen the back. The horse I had most success with with this problem we have been told that unless absoulty nessacary she needs to stay in work even if light and have no longer than 3weeks off at any one time.
It maybe your horse just isnt ready for hills yet?
 

towsie

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hi. thanks for reply. he came back into work by lunging and long reining 3 months ago in the school. just started walking him out but its when he is hacked out at walk on just slopes he just flips . we have taken it slow.he was never naughty before his problem started so we no its not behavior problems.we was told to give him 6 month off by vet . its been over a year now since it all started.
 

Jess Hoss

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My horse has mystery ailments. It sounds a lot like this. Napping. Unhappy going down hills. But the major stuff started in early autumn. I went up to get her after work to go out for a short hack. When I tried to lead her, she planted herself. I thought she was being bolshy, but soon realised that she was completely unable to walk. Her front legs were platting so badly she was almost falling over. Phoned vet. Give A sachet of danillon. I read the packet & dumped 2 sachets in & the instructions said to give more 12 hours (or something !) later. I ran back up the field with her bowl & fought off the rest of the herd so she could eat - there was just no way she could walk to the yard ! I was very distressed - really thought she was a PTS job - I've never seen a horse walk like that before. The vet was unable to come till the next afternoon. I gave her another 2 danillon in the morning & she was walking so much better. Still platting, but a big improvement. But because she was so doped up, there was not much for the vet to go on. And they eye you suspiciously when you tell them how bad it was ! ! Physio found that supraspinatus had severe atrophy, so I had lots of homework. She then went toe in severely & quickly in the front left. Lateral extensions in the next set of shoes followed by flat bars the next time. Vet wanted me to excercise her every day to see if I could induce lameness so he could nerve block her, after hoof & lower leg x rays didn't show up much - a possible small hole in right leg bone but not confirmed. She also had balance boots put on because all her weight is going to the laterall walls of the hoof, causing deterioration. But he didn't get the results he was expecting from the balance boots. . . Hello ? God - sorry. I'm being a bore. . . .But I love this horse so much & I'm fed up not knowing what's wrong because I just want to help her ! So does this seem familiar to anyone or am I grasping at straws. She's just had the physio out. Scapula to be manipulated, front legs stretched, & the physio released the tension at her withers & lumbar. Farrier whipped the shoes off her last week. She's moving her back legs under her a lot better. It's really just been one thing after another. Every time I have plans for us, something happens ! I'm sorry again for rambling ! Any suggestions for what to research would be most appreciated ! x
 

coffeeandabagel

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Interesting about hills - the thing that pushed me into getting the vet back again and pushing for proper diagnostics was when he seemed to tie up going down a steepish slope. That plus really sore back and not being as fast as we thought he could be / should be. And he stopped wanting to load onto the lorry but was OK in a trailer.
He has been medicated in his neck and SI joint. We were following vets plan of gradually increasing walk work and poles, but have now changed tack and just long reining and having chiro / physio. Been two and a half months and cant say he is any better or different. Apart from the days immediatly after the SI injections when he was hyper. He is back to normal sore now.
 
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