Failed vetting and insurance

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K2083

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Sorry for the long post but I am very frustrated!

I am currently in the process of buying a horse, my very experienced friend came with me to view and we were both very happy with the horse. Although I now regret it I decided to get him vetted (he isn’t an expensive horse - less than £3000). The vet failed him on a stage 2 vetting due to lameness, couldn’t find any reason why and potentially said it was due to a bad set of shoes or him standing on stone etc. Also in the same conversation vet said he thought if I re-vetted in 2 weeks time he’d still be lame?! So I decided to get re-vetted, neither me or the owner could see any lameness and the vet trotted him up 5 times. He refused to give a clean vetting certificate as he was what he called ‘student lame’ - if a vet student had vetted him he was that low level he wouldn’t have expected them to notice!! I only want him for hacking and he is 12 so I am still going ahead with the purchase.
Now it’s causing issues with getting him insured. One potential is after getting him to my yard getting my vet to come and vet him again. Would anyone advice this/against this? Or do I just not insure him?
The horse has been out on loan hunting for the past year, no issues and the vet said he had very clean limbs and great confirmation etc!
 
No insurance company is going to touch a horse that has been declared lame by two vets.
If you are going ahead your best option if you can get it might be to have a 0% interest credit card you can use, while you save your own 'insurance fund'.

I will say though I don't see why you had him vetted if you were going to buy him if lame anyway? No vet is going to be able to tell you why during a vetting procedure.
 
ester said:
No insurance company is going to touch a horse that has been declared lame by two vets.
If you are going ahead your best option if you can get it might be to have a 0% interest credit card you can use, while you save your own 'insurance fund'.

I will say though I don't see why you had him vetted if you were going to buy him if lame anyway? No vet is going to be able to tell you why during a vetting procedure.
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agree with all of this.
 
It is the same vet who did both vettings, I genuinely believe he was looking for it the second time When it wasn’t there. If I’m honest it was probably inexperience on my part getting him vetted.
 
The same stands though, if you weren't going to trust his findings.

It might also depend on what you plan to do with the horse as it is 'fit for intended purpose' rather than a pass/fail.
 
No insurance company will touch you. If you are still going ahead with the purchase then I'd suggest getting a credit card for emergencies.
 
May be worth speaking to sellers and see if they will let you know which insurance company they used and permission to contact them.

I know when I was (given/ no vetting) my horse KBIS was happy to transfer the insurance on the horse to me - with all the existing exclusions continuing.
 
I think KBIS will do catastrophe cover without a vetting.

Also I would want more of an explanation from the vet about why he thought the horse was lame. If it’s bad shoeing is it a case of the foot being out of balance? Is it a bruised sole. It’s a bit vague.
 
I’ve had a couple fail in the past with different vets and always had a decent explanation as to where they thought and what they thought and then had the option to explore further with discussions with the owner.
The way op has explained makes it seem like the vet not being overly helpful.
 
Ceifer said:
I’ve had a couple fail in the past with different vets and always had a decent explanation as to where they thought and what they thought and then had the option to explore further with discussions with the owner.
The way op has explained makes it seem like the vet not being overly helpful.
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Thank you. The vet I’ve had out has basically said he usually does very expensive horse vettings and so it appeared that this was beneath him.
He’s completed the vetting form incorrectly on 2 sections so also not great.
 
K2083 said:
Thank you. The vet I’ve had out has basically said he usually does very expensive horse vettings and so it appeared that this was beneath him.
He’s completed the vetting form incorrectly on 2 sections so also not great.
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In that case you need to complain to the vet practice.
 
As he's failed a vetting twice, the seller should give you a substantial discount to go ahead (or pay for ANOTHER vetting by a decent vet.) If you get the discount, put it straight into your reserve fund and forget about insurance. Even iof you can get it, it will be stupid money and full of exclusions.
 
A cheap horse that fails a first vetting quite blatantly and then sounds boarderline two weeks later could be an entirely genuine purchase or a fraudulent catastrophe. The vet can only tell you what he observed and any insurance company would exclude future lameness issues.

To buy a horse in this situation is a huge gamble. Can you pull it’s vet history? Even that can be masked though. Or angle for a short trial of the horse with a further independent vetting. For me this is a £500 or walk away situation.
 
Low grade lameness usually turns out to be the serious ones.
If you want to work the horse at all, hacking or competition lame is lame and it will be caused either by pain or mechanics and you will need a lameness work up to find out which it is. Mechanical lameness usually causes other knock on issues as the horse is not carrying itself correctly.
A vetting will not tell you why the horse is lame it just points out it is, you need a full lameness worked to find out why.
The horse may have been hunted lame, many are as the adrenalin masks many things and the horse does not have to be sound to be allowed to attend, in fact many horses end up as hunters due to a slight lameness but otherwise being great rides.
Not declaring lameness that you know about on insurance is fraud and a big risk, also what happens if you get him to your yard, get him reverted and he is still showing as lame?
If you pay the asking price and go ahead then the current owner has seen you coming, I would have a full work up done if it was my horse I was selling as I would want peace of mind at the point of sale.
If you really want the horse (and the risk) offer £500 and if they decline it walk away.
There are lots of lame horses out there that you could pick from for next to nothing, it's a risk but they may come right.
 
K2083 said:
Thank you. The vet I’ve had out has basically said he usually does very expensive horse vettings and so it appeared that this was beneath him.
He’s completed the vetting form incorrectly on 2 sections so also not great.
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That's a really poor attitude. It doesn't matter if you're buying a £1000 horse or a £1 million pound horse. Every customer deserves the same respect.
 
K2083 said:
Sorry for the long post but I am very frustrated!

I am currently in the process of buying a horse, my very experienced friend came with me to view and we were both very happy with the horse. Although I now regret it I decided to get him vetted (he isn’t an expensive horse - less than £3000). The vet failed him on a stage 2 vetting due to lameness, couldn’t find any reason why and potentially said it was due to a bad set of shoes or him standing on stone etc. Also in the same conversation vet said he thought if I re-vetted in 2 weeks time he’d still be lame?! So I decided to get re-vetted, neither me or the owner could see any lameness and the vet trotted him up 5 times. He refused to give a clean vetting certificate as he was what he called ‘student lame’ - if a vet student had vetted him he was that low level he wouldn’t have expected them to notice!! I only want him for hacking and he is 12 so I am still going ahead with the purchase.
Now it’s causing issues with getting him insured. One potential is after getting him to my yard getting my vet to come and vet him again. Would anyone advice this/against this? Or do I just not insure him?
The horse has been out on loan hunting for the past year, no issues and the vet said he had very clean limbs and great confirmation etc!
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doesnt matter if he's less than 3 grand or over ten grand-they all cost the same to keep as lawnmowers! I really would walk away from this one-it may have been buted up to hunt, or adrenaline can mask very low level lameness if the horse loves it job.

For your next one, if you can get a good idea of its ridden history (look for it on the internet-FB and forums etc) and soundness and can get someone experienced to judge wind, skin etc, don't vet it-just insure it to the hilt for at least a year for LOU, vets bills etc.
 
Buying any horse is a gamble. I neither vet nor insure, but I am quite experienced, never buy expensive and am prepared to trust my own judgement; pay vet bills;accept the consequences including PTS. Insurance is a major and very profitable business. Think about that...
 
I doubt you'd get serious vet cover and LOU on an unvetted horse. Then if it did go lame, you'd have a fight on to prove that it wasn't a pre existing condition.

By all means take a punt on an iffy horse, but don't expect insurance to bail you out if it goes tits up.
 
Tiddlypom said:
I doubt you'd get serious vet cover and LOU on an unvetted horse. Then if it did go lame, you'd have a fight on to prove that it wasn't a pre existing condition.

By all means take a punt on an iffy horse, but don't expect insurance to bail you out if it goes tits up.
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depending on the company you will depending on the value of the horse. whether they'd pay up on LOU is a complete and utter gamble in any case!
 
I sold a pony who failed the vet the same way. It wasn't a cheap pony. The vet suggested giving some bute as it had just been shod. They didn't have it revetted, when the came to collect they haggled £500 off the price and I sold it with a receipt with the date it had the bute on. 18months later it was for sale for £1500 more than I sold it for.
One I sold that was vetted by the smart horse vet and failed, which I knew it would, and exactly what I knew it would fail on and he refused to continue the vetting, which was a Stage 5, but the buyer paid for a full vetting.
When I moaned to my friend that I didn't think it was fair on the buyer, she told me to the glad because he could have found something else wrong with it which I hadn't prepped the buyer for. They still bought it but I knocked money off.
I do not pay for insurance, I am just paying for an extra set of eyes when I have a vetting.
 
To be honest I gave up on insurance years ago - I save the money I would’ve paid and shove it in premium bonds ... over 10 years I am 1000s better off - and the amount of claims that insurance dispute or put massive exclusions on I think it’s a lot less stressful too .. but I’m also a realist and don’t over investigate anything either - I’m a human dr and if what the vet is saying doesn’t make any sense (which is quite common) I get another opinion before investigating further ... I also would not have a colic surgery on any of my horses ... it’s all about considering your options very carefully - I would only buy a horse who failed the vet if I could see what they were saying and could disregard it ... but this vague ‘it’s lame’ if I’d had it vetted twice I’d have had 2 different vets
 
MotherOfChickens said:
depending on the company you will depending on the value of the horse. whether they'd pay up on LOU is a complete and utter gamble in any case!
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this
I buy cheap, don't vet and then insure when I get attached to them ;) When they stop working, they stop getting insured.
I have 7k vets fees insurance on my horse now insured for 2k and a bit less for the cheaper project. I think LOU is a waste of money.
For me, the security blanket of insurance is worth it, I don't have ready access to savings.

I'm not interested in vettings, between my physio, farrier and my opinion I'm happy to take a punt on a cheap horse that appears to all of us to be sound... and cos their purchase price is so low the insurers don't require a vetting cert.
 
milliepops said:
this
I buy cheap, don't vet and then insure when I get attached to them ;) When they stop working, they stop getting insured.
I have 7k vets fees insurance on my horse now insured for 2k and a bit less for the cheaper project. I think LOU is a waste of money.
For me, the security blanket of insurance is worth it, I don't have ready access to savings.

I'm not interested in vettings, between my physio, farrier and my opinion I'm happy to take a punt on a cheap horse that appears to all of us to be sound... and cos their purchase price is so low the insurers don't require a vetting cert.
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This is basically what I do it has worked out ok with all my horses.
 
Firstly, if you’re going to insure I wouldn’t have vetted....possibly just asked vet to do a quick health check...eyes, heart and listen to lungs at rest. I’d just insure with KBIS catastrophe cover for colic and external injuries now and put some money aside each month towards vets fees.
 
I bought a dead lame horse for £100's/meat money, with the proviso that if I couldn't sort him out I'd put him down. It took four months, but I got him right and he proceeded to never take another lame step for 7 years, worked his little heart out and is now happily retired (still sound) at 19. Vet's couldn't work out why he was lame (it was awful abcesses in both front feet), and advised not to buy. Best little horse ever.
 
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