Failed vetting - decisions decisions!

[Bangagin]

I've been looking for another horse for several months now, and finally found a really lovely mare who is quite local. She is very green for her age (9) as she was backed late but she has the kindest temperament I've seen in a long time.

After riding her a couple of times I had her vetted. I knew she had some sarcoids, and the owner was happy for me to speak to her local vet, which I did. He told me that he removed a nodular sarcoid from her belly under sedation by laser. The others are occult sarcoids which were dormant at the top of her back legs.

When my vet looked he said the sarcoid on her belly (which is a hard lump now and could be scar tissue or could be sarcoid tissue) he said that had not been removed by laser - it seemed more as if it had been treated with Liverpool cream. I'm sure I didn't misunderstand the conversation with their vet, so this seemed a bit odd. She did have a laser scar on the inside of her back leg so she had obviously had something removed there.

Anyway, she was flying through the vetting - flexion tests no problems - but when she was lunged on the concrete she was slightly lame on her left fore.

My vet stopped the vetting there and then, said there was little point in continuing - although with hindsight I wish we had continued with the ridden work. He told me she was a lovely horse, could see why I wanted to buy her, and recommended I ask the owner to get her vet to look into the lameness.

Now her owner is lovely - she knows I really want to buy her, but obviously I'm already taking a risk buying a horse with sarcoids (although her price reflects this) and so I can't buy a horse with an unknown lameness. She's asked her vet to come and take a look but I know how difficult it can be to diagnose a slight lameness without lots of expensive investigations.

I suppose deep down I'm a bit worried that we won't get to the bottom of the problem easily.

So two questions - what evidence would you be looking for from their vet re diagnosis of lameness? (I'm bit worried about just having a phone conversation after the sarcoid discussion) - and will I be getting any vetting paperwork from my vet if the process was stopped?

 

[be positive]

I think where you go now depends on how much you trust your own vet, my instinct would be that he was relived he could stop when she showed lame because he was very unhappy about the sarcoids and really didn't want you to go ahead even though you had already accepted them and were happy to buy, if you trust him them walk away, if he is an unknown quantity then maybe wait until the owner has a diagnosis and decide what to do based on that.

 

[twiggy2]

Can you ask for a copy the horses vet records?
The vet you spoke to may not have been the vet that treated her or it may have been a while ago and they may have just got a bit confused with the treatments that were used/given at the time.
Personally the sarcoids would make it a no from me anyway as I feel the risk is too high, treatment is too costly and can be so invasive that I would not buy a horse who already has them.

 

[ihatework]

OP, I am probably one the the least risk averse posters on here in terms of attitude towards vet failures, value of horses for good temperaments etc - it’s rare I’d say a horse is ‘worthless’.

Sarcoids, I have had and still do have horses with them. I think in general there is a lot of scare mongering, especially with small dormant singular ones. But when you get to the point of multiples and needing to laser then I would be very cautious and the only thing that would tempt me is if the horse was seriously proven and hugely cheap.

Then add in a question mark on soundness!

You have a 9yo, unproven, multiple sarcoid, ?lame horse. I’m afraid she is virtually worthless.

If you really like her and the owner needs her homed it would be a £1 to transfer ownership gamble I’m afraid.

 

[little_critter]

Also bear in mind the insurance exclusions you will get from the sarcoids and noted lameness.
It would be a no from me. I'd walk away from the sarcoids alone, add in a lameness and I wouldn't want to risk it I'm afraid.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I would definitely walk away. It's hard when you really like a horse but imagine how much worse problems would feel if you had grown to love the horse too. I've learned the hard way that walking away is the sensible option sadly.

 

[BOWS28]

I'm afraid i'm another one that would walk away. Sarcoids are one thing and many people are happy to proceed with a price that reflects them and that's fine. BUT with added lameness, i'd be walking away regardless of how nice the horse is. Unless, as IHW said, the owner just needs rid and you're happy for a very very cheap gamble. Sorry OP, i'm sure the replies aren't what you were hoping for.. There will be other horses that are equally as lovely that will fly through a vetting, they just take some looking.

 

[Leandy]

I would walk away and keep looking but tell them to let me know when she is properly in work and properly sound and I may be interested to revisit at that time. I'd be suspicious about a "lovely" horse which was started late and is still green unless you have properly verified reasons for this (not just seller say so). You don't say what you want the horse for as if you want a happy hacker you can be more tolerant of some question marks than for a competition horse but I would want to see it successfully doing the amount of work I plan to ask of it for a 9 year old.

 

[skint1]

I have walked away from 2 lovely horses because of failed vettings, the first has been sold and is presumably happy with someone who was less risk averse than me or whose vet found a different circustance . The second I think will probably be the same. I have mixed feelings about it all as I only wanted a low level horse and the vets knew this and could not even say the horses would stand up to that. It's put me off looking at horses. I cant' advise you, but I do know how you feel, good luck with whatever you decide

 

[SusieT]

Often these 9yr olds are lightly worked in reality because they had too many health problems and never stood up to work.
If you really want to take on a liability I'd offer the onwer £1, she is worthless really in monetary terms.
I would walk away.

 

[HazuraJane]

Often these 9yr olds are lightly worked in reality because they had too many health problems and never stood up to work.
If you really want to take on a liability I'd offer the onwer £1, she is worthless really in monetary terms.
I would walk away.

Any time an owner has 'lightly worked' a horse of over 5-6 years old it makes me suspicious of the 'why' involved. The term here in the States is 'low mileage' which sounds appealing until one considers that there is a reason the horse has 'low miles' or lack of a show record once it's of an age where its peers have more miles and a show record. Sigh. I think horse shopping has made me into a very suspicious person.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Having been looking since April I completely feel your pain, but I would say, if it was me, I would walk away. And in fact, I have done twice previously.

Its hard, and you will feel sad for a short while but honestly also having had 2 horses that have had serious medical issues not disclosed (one was a dodgy vetting, the second was "schooling" which turned into something much much more) and ultimately both having been put down, I would say a bit of sadness now vs. possible years of heartache really is not contest.

 

[Chiffy]

What is the point of paying a large fee for professional advice and then not taking it?
Horses can develop so many things, you always need to start with one as near perfect as possible unless you want to take a chance on a free one and even those cost money to keep!
I have a friend who bred a horse that developed sarcoids, he was to be for her anyway, so sales did not come into it. She had him for a good few years but from time to time he had to have operations as more sarcoids developed. It was heartbreaking and in the end he was put down well before old age. I would not touch a horse with sarcoids ever.

 

[Esmae]

I would say don't buy problems. Horses can make their own all by themselves without you having to invest in them at an early stage.

 

[AmyMay]

I’d absolutely walk away.

 

[Bojingles]

Having had two with sarcoids I'd say walk away. No question. Sorry.

 

[oldie48]

I'm another who "works" with my vet whom I absolutely trust to give me the best considered advice and if he said "walk away" that is precisely what I would do.

 

[Melody Grey]

Assuming the lameness could be investigated and addressed, As the owner really likes you would they consider loaning the horse to you? Might be a win win- the horse is sadly worthless so won’t be sellable and you like her.

Obviously make sure veterinary issues are covered by the owner!

 

[Bangagin]

I'm a bit confused by some of the replies - because at no time did my vet advise me to walk away! He said he thought she was lovely, but it wasn't worth the risk of buying her with undiagnosed lameness. So he advised me to get the owner's vet to investigate.

Also I never said she was in light work - her owner has had her for 2 years, and she comes across as a very genuine seller. No this is not a competition horse - I want a good all rounder for RC activities.

I didn't actually ask for advice about whether to buy her or not - and so far no-one has given me any answers to my questions. I think you have all been reading the responses rather than my original post! Bit like Chinese whispers!

 

[Bangagin]

I'm another who "works" with my vet whom I absolutely trust to give me the best considered advice and if he said "walk away" that is precisely what I would do.

That's not what my vet advised.

 

[Melody Grey]

Re: evidence, I’ve always had written diagnostic reports from veterinary investigations I’ve had done, featuring x-ray/ scan pictures/ test results- presumably that’s what you want to see?

ETA: failed vettings still come
Written up in my experience

 

[AmyMay]

If you ask your vet for a report on the failed vetting, they will supply it.

Regarding the lameness, I suppose evidence will depend on what investigations they do. But the seller will be able to provide you with the relevant work up paperwork.

 

[Leandy]

I suppose deep down I'm a bit worried that we won't get to the bottom of the problem easily.

So two questions - what evidence would you be looking for from their vet re diagnosis of lameness? (I'm bit worried about just having a phone conversation after the sarcoid discussion) - and will I be getting any vetting paperwork from my vet if the process was stopped?

I agree with your first point, hence I would be sceptical of any evidence provided straight away by their vet and that it could well turn out not to be the whole story. Hence I wouldn't rely on it and I'd want it revetted by my own vet at a later date when it is sound and back in work. On your second question, ask your vet!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Oh dear..... OP I'm SO very sorry you're in this position; a couple of years ago when I was looking I fell in love, hopelessly, with a lovely little Welsh D mare who I was assured would "fly through vetting" and seller made me know that she thought it was a "waste of money and a sheer formality".

It wasn't. The mare failed. My heart was broken, I cried all the way home and for about a week afterwards, I'd sooh thought I'd be bringing the little girly home, and instead of which I had to walk away. I was devastated, it was just awful.

But, but, it would have been even worse to have brought home a horse that would probably be unsound off-and-on, and I knew that IF I had bought her, I'd have had to spend at least £500, plus-some, to do the necessary investigations, let alone treatment.

I do not have the experience of dealing with sarcoids that others on here obviously have; but you haven't got just sarcoids to deal with, you have the additional - and unknown - lameness factor too; and that one lameness issue would be enough to make me walk away. You're not buying a field ornament, you're surely buying something you want to ride and have fun on?? - and this horse has huge potential to land you not only with mega vets bills for the future, but also is quite likely to not be rideable either short or long-term. Of course you do not know exactly what the "lameness" issue is...... but any investigations would be costly and still might not fully indicate exactly what the problem is.

Hating to say it, but I'm another who would counsel you to walk away from this one.

Now's the best possible time to look around, some good horses should be coming onto the market round about now, why land yourself with possible future expense - and possible heartbreak to boot.

 

[Flyermc]

im going against everyone here!

we bought a 9 year old, with 2 sarcoids who was also lame. luckily he was very local and the owners let us trial him for 2 weeks before purchasing him. We got him vetted (which he failed) but we did it to decide if he was fixable. We did decide to buy and he wasnt that cheap (over 1k) he was an amazing horse and we had numerous offers from people wanting to buy him, over the years.

He was sadly PTS of old age issues at the age of 24

As for the vetting report, we got one posted to us (vets might email them now)
For advise for the diagnosis, id expect the visiting vet to look at the horse, use there own judgement on what to do and then send the report to the owner and yourself if the owner agrees.

 

[oldie48]

That's nohat my vet advised.

Sorry I misunderstood your post because I'd not read it properly but I do think a lot of the comments are worthy of consideration. FWIW I bought Rose with a "suspect" occult sarcoid on her inner thigh, renegotiated the price downwards as it is a risk but no evidence of other sarcoids. so I am not entirely sarcoid averse but I am wary. A broken late green 9 year old would ring a few alarm bells, especially if it presented lame at the vetting. In my book "slightly lame" is always a big worry because it can be so difficult to track down the cause, so I would proceed with extreme caution. Rose failed a vetting in 2016 and stood in a field for nearly three years but I took a punt on her as she passed a very rigorous 5 stage and X rays and so far (nearly a year in) she's sound and looks great but tbh I could afford to lose what I spent on her as she was a very cheap horse for what she is and I paid a fraction of the price she had sold for in 2016. The bottom line is always, you pay and you take the chance, the posters on here are just sharing their thoughts and experiences to you completely FOC.

 

[cundlegreen]

OP, sarcoids wouldn't bother me unless the horse was very pricey. I've had very good results treating homeopathically. You can't put a price on a horse that feels right for you. As for the lameness, you haven't said what degree. it could be anything. Poor hoof/pastern axis, badly balanced feet, or just a tweak on the day. I had a young horse vetted that was pronounced lame on a trot up. I couldn't see it, so represented to the same vet a week later after my vet couldn't find anything, and he passed. So a vetting is just a moment in time. If she passed her flexion tests, I'd revet in a week or so if the seller is agreeable.

 

[Bangagin]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to have a good think. I would have definitely taken a gamble on the sarcoids, as she is a good price, but with the lameness I am going to have to think long and hard. My vet didn't give a definitive degree of lameness - he just said slightly lame - so yes it could be something transient, but again it could be a nightmare! I have a mare I have just retired, so I definitely don't want two field ornaments. However - I have been looking for months now and not really finding much suitable out there - and there is just something about her that is drawing me in. It's very hard to explain. I know everyone is right, but at the end of the day I could spend thousands more on a horse that passes a vetting and six months down the line there could be a lameness issue, so any purchase is a bit of a gamble I feel! I've been looking for a loan horse, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth!

 

[Summit]

If she passed her flexion tests, I'd revet in a week or so if the seller is agreeable.

This is what I would do...

 

[Doublethyme]

If you are willing to wait, just tell the owner you are still interested as and when the horse is sound again and ready for new vetting. Owners problem as to whether they have their vet and investigations. Your problem is deciding whether to wait and whether to trust the result of a potential 2nd vetting which is only valid on that day. Do Not rely on the owner or their vet just telling you horse is sound which sounds like your plan!! .... Inherent risk that if its an intermittent lameness or a warning sign of future issues, that the mare after a bit of rest comes up sound at a 2nd vetting.
The owner may share her vets investigations with you but she has no legal responsibility to do so I believe, so it's a risk only you can decide on. You have already said your vet didn't agree with what the other vet said about the sarcoid being lasered. So already some question marks.
You can ask your vets for the part vetting reportbut it's a vetting not a diagnostic exam so don't expect much.
Maybe park the mare for now, tell the owner that if/when she comes sound to let you know and in the meantime keep looking. It's what I did once in very similar circumstances and by the time the owner rang me to say horse sound, I'd found another horse, had it vetted and was very happy with my choice.
Step back and see how it pans out.
Can't comment on sarcoids as not an area I'm experienced in and personally would avoid buying.