Falling off at HOYS

[WelshD]

The pony club are upheld as setting the standard for horse care and safety etc

I noticed that even if your saddle slips whilst showing in the most pedestrian of flat classes and you take the slowest of slow motion falls you are immediately eliminated from a class

I was therefore startled to see a pony club mounted games competitor take a heck of a fall at speed and hit the arena sidewall. be led away by a medic only to be brushed down by a parent/trainer and sent back out on the pony

Why the difference in rules - does anyone know? Obviously it's different societies involved I understand that but in most competition nowadays a fall spells elimination

 

[Regandal]

Ah yes, but the PC are one of the last bastions of Real Horsemanship. If you can walk and talk, you get back on. Even if you do wobble a bit.
Seriously,I have no idea!

 

[GirlFriday]

Interesting thread. Would hope child would be helped back on if OK but really no, would think not allowed to compete further in this day and age. Shame for the rest of the team but there you go...

 

[be positive]

I guess it is down to the rules and organisers to interpret the rules, a fall in the show ring will count against the pony, even if it was due to a loose girth which at that level is a ridiculous error, so the pony will have no chance of being placed from that moment on so no point in continuing even if it wasn't eliminated under the rules, maybe it will ensure the rider never makes the same mistake.

With the games the competition side is different, the fall will probably only impact on that one game result so the competition continues, I think generally we are too focused on H&S falls are part and parcel of equestrian sport and it would be good to see a bit more common sense and less fuss every time someone takes a tumble.

 

[GirlFriday]

Bit torn on this... Whilst I /know/ there are some falls I've been perfectly fine riding after there are some where I wasn't. And I'm not always sure I've made the right call. You can't really expect a child to with all the pressure of being part of a team / in s very public place.

In some ways a simple rule "fall = no more competing for you", similar to "blood = no more competing in rugby" is simpler. I mean I wouldn't like to be in stewards position of having to disagree with a pushy parent if child looked concussed to me. And I wouldn't like to be in parent's position of wanting to get them back on for sake of future selections if I also had any niggling doubts that they might have broken a rib or whatever.

 

[Shay]

We can't legislate for every situation. Under some sets of rules a fall equals elimination -not matter what. Like eventing. In some you can get back on. Like show jumping. (Other than under FEI rules before someone yells...) Or Pentathlon!

Yes there are pushy parents - and determined children - who might ignore a fall and ride on if permitted. Same is true of adults too. And of riders of any age pushing a horse through minor injury. Or not realizing it had been injured in the first place.

As be positive says - falls are actually part of this sport. And having had a child in mounted games (briefly!) falls are very much a part of that particular discipline.

Riding on injured - or with an injured horse - is not good. But that doesn't mean we have to change all the rules in the world. Sometimes we just have to accept that within an body's set of rules there will be those who make bad choices and those who do not. Failing to do up a girth seems a fairly bad choice to me!

 

[rachk89]

I would kind of hope to be honest that most people would be good enough riders at HOY's to have good enough balance to not have the saddle slip if the girth is loose. Seen plenty of riders go riding and only notice how loose the girth is after they got off as the saddle never slipped. It is also a silly mistake to make so they should be eliminated.

For the pony club games it is part of it really and as long as someone could spot if the child is actually injured and not allow them to compete then that's fine. A proper parent shouldn't really be making their child continue riding if in pain or concussed just for the sake of a placing and they should stop the child if they want to continue and take them to hospital instead.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

In most disciplines you fall you are eliminated from the class on that horse but you can carry on and compete in another class later in the day. I assume in this case the kid was eliminated from that game, declared themselves fit to carry on and went on to compete in a different game.

Same as racing. Those jockeys take hellish falls, report to the Dr, get the all clear and head back out again 20mins later on their next ride.

The world is going health and safety crazy these days.

 

[soulfull]

As a medical at equestrian events including pony club, I do find it a little scary. A brain bleed may not show up for a good while, riding with a possibly damaged hat?

However while not applicable here I once asked the local DC this question she said that ponies are very clever little things and if rider doesn't get straight back on they soon learn to repeat what got the rider off. Also children recover confidence wise better if able to get straight back on rather than be left to think about things. As a rider I can see the value in these points too

A case of you can't win whatever you

 

[AnShanDan]

To clarify, under BE rules a fall XC is 65 pens. you can remount and continue, a fall SJ is 8 pens. Second falls in both are E.

You cannot compare PC games to other disciplines really, many games include dismounting and remounting (vaulting on normally), falling from the pony is often during the jumping on and off.

At HOYS the standard of the games teams is obviously the best in the country and everything is done at such a pace, the children taking part are very balanced riders but inevitably sometimes they part company from their ponies.

 

[WelshD]

I used the saddle slipping example to demonstrate that even a gentle fall in showing is penalised by disqualification

To make it a level playing field for the sake of the pedantic:

Show hunter pony doesn't make the turn at the end of an arena when galloping - child falls off

Mounted games pony doesn't make the turn at the end of an arena when galloping - child falls off

Why is one eliminated and the other not?

I've no axe to grind, no personal involvement I'm just curious!

Perhaps it's as easy as someone above pointing out that each game may be seen as a separate competition

 

[be positive]

In part the separate competition and in part that the competitive aspect is totally different, in the SHP or any ridden show class the pony is being judged and the rider is just showing off the pony, if pony fails to pull up, misbehaves or lacks manners it will not stand a chance of winning so the elimination could just as easily be due to pony failing to turn, child pulls it up eventually but is asked to leave the ring for failing to be in control or just ends up at the bottom of the line.

In games it is a totally different skill set, an unruly pony will only hinder the rider, it will not be penalised for being "difficult" it is not going to interfere with other competitors so it will stay in to compete, no idea why the rules do allow remounting but I don't think the two classes are comparable as the desired winning performance is so totally different.

 

[GlamourDol]

May it be that the game had ended yet the show class hadn't? A kid fell off In the sj but had gone through the finish so was allowed to come back for the jump off but she too would have been eliminated if it had been during the round.

 

[EllenJay]

I think that with showing classes at HOYS you are showing a ridden horse which has to have immaculate manners, and therefore if you hit the deck it is deemed to be down to bad manners on the part of the horse and therefore elimination.

Ridden showing horses have to be above reproach, and I have seen a horse called in first, who then reared and because the rosette hadn't been awarded the horse was eliminated.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

The 4th placed riding horse got sent out of the ring as it misbehaved once called forward into line and was sent out of the ring. I do feel for them but the horses, especially riding horses, hacks and show ponies should have immaculate manners at all times.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

To clarify, under BE rules a fall XC is 65 pens. you can remount and continue, a fall SJ is 8 pens. Second falls in both are E.

And in showing (flat & wh/whp), any fall of horse/pony or rider is elimination

 

[MagicMelon]

I saw that too OP, her fall was swiftly followed by another (by another competitor) only moments later wasn't it! I thought they were amazinginly hardy kids to get back on. I guess for showing, if you fall off then you're horse may have done something for you to get chucked off so manners perhaps could be called into question? Also, I would wonder if the ride judge would want to get on something that had just decked its rider? For games, the horses manners aren't an issue and falls are probably pretty common when throwing yourself on and off so it may be hard to differentiate when a proper "fall" has happened.

With regards to manners in general. I made my first ever trip to watch HOYS this year and was surprised at how many refused to stand still in the presentation line ups (I watched the M&M WH and pony WH). I sort of expected absolute perfect manners at HOYS standard.

 

[Merlod]

I used the saddle slipping example to demonstrate that even a gentle fall in showing is penalised by disqualification

To make it a level playing field for the sake of the pedantic:

Show hunter pony doesn't make the turn at the end of an arena when galloping - child falls off

Mounted games pony doesn't make the turn at the end of an arena when galloping - child falls off

Why is one eliminated and the other not?

I've no axe to grind, no personal involvement I'm just curious!

Perhaps it's as easy as someone above pointing out that each game may be seen as a separate competition

Because showing is pretty much all about appearance, if you don't do your girth up or you don't have enough control to make a turn that is your fault and should be penalised. Who wants to see a sand covered rider who the class has had stop for whilst they re-mounted place?

Gymkhana games are fast and furious and if falling meant elimination then it would create a large grey area as the children seem to spend half the time leaping on and off the ponies ie, child missing mounting from canter or falling when they leap off.. probably result in most of the team eliminated by the end!

 

[Spilletta]

Slightly off-topic as this isn't connected to HOYS, but it was something I was pondering over yesterday when I was watching at a team chase...

Someone fell off their horse, but it was all very slow motion and she was clearly fine. She got back on and the team went on their way so I guessed if it was a bad fall, they'd be checked by medical staff and pulled out if injured. However, I then saw another fall but this time it was the horse who slipped right over. I thought if a horse fell, they'd be automatically pulled out. But the rider (not a vet) seemed to deem it ok - if a two-second look counts as a checkover - and remounted, and continued. I also heard of someone else whose horse had slipped right over, and they also carried on. I suppose if a horse falls in the hunting field and still appears ok then the rider can choose to just carry on rather than lead the horse home/to a box, so is this why it's done at team chasing? (Although there could be a lot longer walk involved if it was in the hunting field!)

 

[ironhorse]

In team chasing a horse fall - ie the horse's shoulders/hip hit the ground - is penalised by elimination.
A rider that is unseated twice is also eliminated.
If you are talking about the Bicester team chase and the team that went first in the open, the horse pitched onto her knees and unseated the rider. He was waiting for the fence judge's decision but was not told he could not continue, so after making sure the horse was ok, he carried on. The fence judge's decision is final unless the horse is obviously injured.

 

[RunToEarth]

Slightly off-topic as this isn't connected to HOYS, but it was something I was pondering over yesterday when I was watching at a team chase...

Someone fell off their horse, but it was all very slow motion and she was clearly fine. She got back on and the team went on their way so I guessed if it was a bad fall, they'd be checked by medical staff and pulled out if injured. However, I then saw another fall but this time it was the horse who slipped right over. I thought if a horse fell, they'd be automatically pulled out. But the rider (not a vet) seemed to deem it ok - if a two-second look counts as a checkover - and remounted, and continued. I also heard of someone else whose horse had slipped right over, and they also carried on. I suppose if a horse falls in the hunting field and still appears ok then the rider can choose to just carry on rather than lead the horse home/to a box, so is this why it's done at team chasing? (Although there could be a lot longer walk involved if it was in the hunting field!)

A horse fall is immediate elimination of the horse and rider - if they continue after a horse fall the entire team is eliminated, rightly so IMO. TBF I've never seen anyone get back on following a horse fall out hunting either - just because there aren't any rules doesn't mean that people don't look after their horses.

The rules in teamchasing broadly follow those of XC and in my experience they are policed very well so if a mounted steward didn't stop the fallen horse, did it's shoulders hit the ground?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

It depends on what you see as a fall. In racing if a horses shoulder, hip or more hits the floor then it is deemed as a fall. If the horse lands, goes down on its knees or sprays it's back legs or it bounces it's stomach off the ground before regaining it's feet then if the jockey is off it is deemed as an unseat. If the partnership stay intact then it is a mistake but they carry on.

 

[Spilletta]

Thanks for the teamchasing information.

In team chasing a horse fall - ie the horse's shoulders/hip hit the ground - is penalised by elimination.
A rider that is unseated twice is also eliminated.
If you are talking about the Bicester team chase and the team that went first in the open, the horse pitched onto her knees and unseated the rider. He was waiting for the fence judge's decision but was not told he could not continue, so after making sure the horse was ok, he carried on. The fence judge's decision is final unless the horse is obviously injured.

It was the Bicester team chase, but not that particular incident that I saw. It was one of the early teams in the Novice.

A horse fall is immediate elimination of the horse and rider - if they continue after a horse fall the entire team is eliminated, rightly so IMO. TBF I've never seen anyone get back on following a horse fall out hunting either - just because there aren't any rules doesn't mean that people don't look after their horses.
The rules in teamchasing broadly follow those of XC and in my experience they are policed very well so if a mounted steward didn't stop the fallen horse, did it's shoulders hit the ground?

I’m now doubting myself because whilst I thought the shoulders did hit the ground, now that I know the rules, it seems like they couldn’t have otherwise there would have been more intervention. I can’t find the results to see if a team did get eliminated. Also, I didn’t mean it to sound like I think hunters don’t look after their horses. Of the ones I know, quite the contrary

It depends on what you see as a fall. In racing if a horses shoulder, hip or more hits the floor then it is deemed as a fall. If the horse lands, goes down on its knees or sprays it's back legs or it bounces it's stomach off the ground before regaining it's feet then if the jockey is off it is deemed as an unseat. If the partnership stay intact then it is a mistake but they carry on.

Again, I wish I could see it clearly in my mind. I remember being a bit surprised that they carried on as it was definitely more than going down on the knees or stomach. Aside from the legs slipping over, I was wondering if the stirrup going into its side would make it sore, which makes me think it was, indeed, a fall. But, as I said earlier, I doubt that the organisers would go against the rules. Next time I see the people I was with, I’ll see if they can remember.