Falling on hard times - should the yard help you out?

Wagtail

Wagtail

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If someone falls on hard times, maybe a divorce or losing their job with very little prospect of getting another one, and they keep their horse/horses on part or full livery, how much would you expect a yard to help out? Say the yard made very little profit as it was, but this person had been a long standing customer and always paid on time as well as being very kind hearted themselves.

Should the yard offer to reduce the livery for a period? Offer alternative/cheaper livery? Offer to take no payments for a period of time (though there would be no guarantee the person would be able to pay after this time). What would you expect from a yard? Is it ethical for the yard to keep billing the customer as though nothing had changed? Or should they help out?

Interested because this has happened twice to me now as a yard owner.
 
I wouldn't expect people to pay for my horses if something happened, I've lost my job before and been skint but still went without other stuff to pay my livery, the yo used to let me give her 20.00 etc as and when towards the next bill as then I couldn't have it to spend it!
They were however very helpfull about helping me with the horses if I was at an interview or something!
 
If I was in that situation, I would expect to have to move my horse to a yard that I could afford.

I would be very grateful, though, if the current yard owner either offered me DIY until I could get myself sorted, or reduced livery in return for working on the yard. After all, if I wasn't working I would have more time. No way would I expect a free pass though.
 
Ive been in that situation myself before and to be honest I carried on paying livery and caring for my horse(s) at the time it was very very difficult but I had to cut back on the feed and changed to cheapest and buy my hay and bedding in bulk even had to change to straw for them both just so I could still keep them in good beds.
I advertised for a sharer too which helped huge amounts towards the upkeep.

The yard I was on at the time wasn't so nice and was DIY so little different to your situation, maybe suggest they get someone else in to help with costings and share of horse.
If on full then suggest if your happy also to go part livery, cutting down on any unnecessary things, re evaluate things in general.

You sound like a lovely YO whilst also sympathetic to your liveries you also have a business to run and this day in age is difficult.

Perhaps sit them down to discuss options your both happy with.
 
As you're running a business, you do have to keep some sort of focus on keeping your own head above water or you could potentially end up in the same situation. However, if you CAN or ABLE to financially give your livery some relief and you WANT to you might find a way to do it so that it doesn't look like a hand out.

For example, as a dog groomer at hte beginning of this recession I had a newish groomer who needed experience with more technical trims. It so happens a client of mine had the double whammy of her and her husband losing their jobs. THey were attempting DIY grooming on their Bichon but splurging once every several months for us to shave it naked and start over. The dog's skin was a mess needed medicated shampoos which they weren't doing right, and the hair was becoming a matted mess. I suggested that we take this dog on FOC for a year so that my newbie could perfect her skills, and the dog would get the benefit of the bi weekly groomings. It cost me a little in terms of supplies, but she and her hubby were very grateful (she came in and cleaned my shop a few times at her insistence). She and hubby are both working again, dog still comes as a paying customer and my groomer has a "client for life!" I could not do this with every client who has fallen on hard times, but I can afford to do it now and again, even if we're feeling the pinch.

Can you "employ" this person to help out in exchange for her livery?
 
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I would not expect the YO to help. I have had to sell my horses twice following redundancy :( My home and food to eat was more important than my horses - who got very good homes. I sold cheap and quickly (but to a good home in every case) to ensure I could pay my way so had no livery owing. Their sale helped me survive until I did get a job. If it was an old horse where the only alternative was PTS as could not be sold then I would never expect the YO to help, but if they did I would pretty much work for them as many hours as I could to pay for the horse. However there are still vets bills, farriers etc etc - we all know horses are not cheap!

you are lovely to consider this but you are a business. On the other hand you have to live with your conscience. If you can help it is a nice gesture
 
If you could offer help it would improve horse welfare. Maybe offer diy gras livery for a short period to enable a long standing client a bit of time to either find a new job, a sharer or time to sell the horse well - I mean not in a hurry but time to find a good home. You could be repaid from the proceeds of the sale .
 
I have offered grass livery, but would need to fill the stables in the meantime to make the yard pay for itself. But I don't think this will be taken up in any case. I just feel so bad every time I present an invoice! I really wish I could financially help out more, but other than offering grass livery, which I would not normally do and only offer it because the livery is such a lovely person, there is nothing more I can do without the yard making a loss. These are hard times, and I think we are only just seeing the beginning of it. :(
 
The thing is, if you do it for one, you'd be expected to do it for all. You could be seen as a soft touch.
 
at a previous yard i fell into difficult times, got on well with the farmer anyway, had 2 ponies on the yard. i was pregnant and going through a divorce so the farmer said that i could work off my bill. his mother was on crutches due to an injury so i would go in and clean her home as and when they wanted me, i did late checks on the horses on the yard, mucked out his own 2 horses and he also pointed people in my direction if they had a problem. granted the yard was a cheap yard to be on so wasn't a huge bill each month but i was so grateful and it meant i kept my ponies.
 
Well you don't have to but ethically I think you ought to try and help people, to a point IYKWIM? Helping out a genuine good customer, and probably friend, for a while if you can afford to would be, IMO, the "right thing to do", but you need to know where you would draw the line before being nice becomes being a mug.
 
I wouldn't expect any YO to give anything.
As someone who HAS fallen on hard times though, I am overwhelmed and extremely grateful that my YO is doing everything she can to help me right now.
My 2 are on DIY grass livery anyway.
I offered to give her my 4yo Welsh D to cover livery that I owe her, (she has a small riding school), but she doesn't want to take my horse off me.
I offered to work on the yard, but she doesn't need anyone.
She is 100% supportive with my current situation and knows that I am trying to sell my Welsh D so that I can repay her. I have someone coming tomorrow to view my mare, who I have just backed.
I really do wish that I wasn't in this situation, but the circumstances are beyond my control.
As for my YO, she is one in a million and I would do the same for her if the roles were reversed.
I will never ever forget the kindness and support she is giving me right now.
If I won the lottery, I would give my YO all the money she needed to turn her yard and home into the best in the country.
 
I think the livery needs to behave ethically and treat the YO fairly. We all know there isn't a lot of profit in livery, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect the YO to support us and our horses financially.
I speak from experience, I lost months of work due to a botched operation and things got frightening. The first thing I did was tell my YO and tell him that I would pay one more month then either move the horses or sell my wonderful Arab to fund the other two (sob, I could cry just thinking about that now!). As it happened some dear friends stepped in and offered my three pones sanctuary for a few months, and looked after them for most of the week as it was a long way from me.
I'm back with the same YO now and he's been very fair in sorting out somewhere for my herd.
 
It's a really nice offer and the livery is fortunate that you are looking out for her, but I wouldn't expect, or even take it, because I think not only does it put you in the position of having to do it for others, but also because it's a bit open-ended; how long do you help her for? When does it stop? It's all a bit uncertain as we don't know how long the hard times may last....what if the person (maybe not in this case) gets a bit too comfortable with the idea and drags it on a bit? (maybe I'm just a cynic!)
 
As a rule I would say no, but in genuine circumstances when things happen and folk are already taking a beating (metaphorically speaking) I think the help is hugely appreciated.
E.g. when we had our yard we were basically running the yard to cover the costs of our horses so it was a fine balance. There was a older middle aged couple with an old driving pony (we had known the couple for 20+years and the pony for at least 10years prior to them owning him!), very suddenly the husband died in his sleep, his widow had no income and no way of keeping the pony, but she was (and still is) a fiercely proud lady.
She was broken hearted but knew the pony needed to go (and helpfully this was all in the midst of the FMD of 2001!), so we agreed to keep him for a token payment of his feed and hay and when we could sell him we would (but only to an approved home as we loved him dearly).
All was well in the end as we sold him to a family friend who enjoyed him for many more years and the lady was happy that we had helped her.
Would it be possible that she could work off some of her bill?
 
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The best suggestion I can offer is that the YO and livery sit down and discuss everything.
Can the type of livery be changed, e.g. can stabled horses go on to grass livery. Most horses CAN live out ! Unless there are health issues, if the horses are suitably rugged and fed (if required), grass livery is the best option for reducing costs to the YO provided there is suitable grazing to support horses living out 24/7.
The owner doesn't NEED to keep the horse in, (again, unless there are health issues). If they are struggling financially, they are not in a position to go out competing or have regular lessons. Turn the horses out and work them from the field if they need to be kept in work.
Discuss money !
How much can the owner pay ? Is there money expected to come in where the livery could pay a lump sum ?
Could any of the horses be sold to a) reduce costs and b) to repay any money owed to the YO ?
There are lots of options for the livery to try to improve their situation. I know, as I am experiencing this myself right now.
The most important thing though, is for the livery and YO to discuss options to try to help the situation. It won't go away on its own.
For the YO, please try to be understanding as it really is not a nice experience to have to go through.
Wagtail, PM me if you like and I will explain MY current circumstances, how it has affected me and how I am trying to resolve things :).
 
Obliged no but it is nice to but at the end of the day its a business not a charity and I have seen folk just LEAVE horses on yards and having been a grrom on a yard for ten years and the horse was there before I came and had been left and YO just didnt have the heart to chuck it out and couldnt sell it!!

Having been in that situation I was lucky enough that I had a friend who could help me out but had I not had then i wouldnt have expected my farmer to let me off with livery or to pay it later. I would have just had to move them and try to find somewhere cheaper whilst I sold them.

As it was one horse went to a new home and is doing well with her dressage and hacking and the other is on loan.
 
I think the fact that you are thinking about this shows the sort of person you are, and it is great if you are able to help them out. BUT you need to make them aware it is short term, as otherwise you could find yourself being taken advantage of.
 
While I applaud you for wanting to help out, in my experience, if the fact that you are subsidising someones horse becomes known to other liveries (if you have others) it can make for an atmosphere with the people that are paying. This happened on my yard
(I am not YO) and the fact that someone had 3 horses that they werent paying livery for didnt go down at all well with the rest of the yard., especially as person concerned then left owing a large amount of money.
 
alma said:
While I applaud you for wanting to help out, in my experience, if the fact that you are subsidising someones horse becomes known to other liveries (if you have others) it can make for an atmosphere with the people that are paying. This happened on my yard
(I am not YO) and the fact that someone had 3 horses that they werent paying livery for didnt go down at all well with the rest of the yard., especially as person concerned then left owing a large amount of money.
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I'm sorry but it is a personal matter between the YO and the livery concerned. :)
If other peoples noses are put out of joint because someone has fallen on hard times and the YO is trying to help, then WHAT kind of person does that make them ?
If YOU (please read that as anyone reading this post - NOT personal towards any individual :)) lost everything tomorrow, would YOU like to think other liveries were b*tching about you because of something that happened outwith your control ?
The way things are with the UK economy right now, ANYONE could lose their job at any time and be forced into a similar position.
Not everyone has savings that they could rely upon if the worst happened at short notice.
Things like this are a private matter between YO's and liveries. It is NOT a topic for discussion between the yard gossips who can't see beyond their own noses.
TRUST ME ! It is NOT a nice position to be in. I am on antidepressants right now because of the circumstances I am experiencing right now. I sat in my GP's surgery in floods of tears the other week and told him I had given up on life !
I have fantastic support from good friends, and my YO is happy, and is being fully supportive with the arrangements which I have discussed, IN PRIVATE, with her !
 
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I am aware that this should be a private matter, but as in the case on our yard it became general knowledge and caused a lot of upset. Im not saying people shouldnt want to help out and be sympathetic, all credit to them, but not everyone has a charitable mindset!Just making an observation!
 
it depends on the relationship that you have with your people but it is a business and people can take the pee if you give too much. If they are genuinely struggling they have the option of loaning their horse to help pay the costs even if its just one or two days a week this is how we got our little loan pony. Its not ideal but at least its an option and with you on site there would be someone to keep an eye unless its a retired horse not fit for riding.

You could also ask them to do some chores in exchange until they get back on their feet if its going to be a short term thing.

I have to be honest I am a bit of a soft touch especially with horses that are elderly and settled I'm not sure I could turn them away especially when they are at a low point - sort of kicking the horse whilst its down...
 
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I think offering grass livery is really decent of you, OP:)

I know it's a business, but the OP did say that this livery was a good livery, and those are hard to come by too! If it was me, I would really appreciate grass livery, and would offer to help out doing chores around the yard for an agreed number of hours per week on top of paying my grass livery bill, as a thank you. That way other liveries have no cause to be jealous - unless they fancy working and still paying out too!
 
I dont think you can expect a yard to do this- it is a business afterall...however, I am very lucky that at our yard, our YO is very understanding of people situations. It depends how much the YO 'needs' the cash themselves.
 
alma :)
It's not so much a charitable mindset, but a private matter between the YO and the livery concerned.
If other people get humpty about someone suffering from extreme hardship, then that's THEIR problem ;).
Anyway, I'm off now to go and ride my 4yo as someone is coming to view her tomorrow, which is part of my agreement with my YO to help to resolve things :).
 
Grass livery fair offer. If they are having tough times then they will have to 'lower' their requirements & appreciate what they have been offered. That way they get to stay & use facilities until they can afford part livery again. Very few horses can't live out, it's the owners who want them in. You have been every generous, I'd step back now & if they choose not to take it then that's their decision.
 
Gosh, that's a tough one. I understand your feelings when presenting an invoice to this person, but do your liveries wince when you are handed a huge bill for hay/feed/maintenance/business rates? Probably not.

If said person changes horses to grass or DIY, it would be very difficult to rent out her/his stables to another under the premise that said person may want them back at some point in the future when in a better situation.

The only thing I would suggest if I were in your shoes is to propose a payment plan to cover any discounts you give to ensure you are paid in the future. This would have to be written and signed by both parties. Is there anything else this person can do to help themselves i.e. poo-picking/mucking out/helping out elsewhere for you?

Good luck. You sound like a lovely YO!
 
I think if I was a YO I would do as you have done - offer grass livery for a long standing reliable client - If you can avoid at all costs the person running up debt to you so maybe take the money weekly from them - this will help them as much as you. If you can offer any work in return for the grass livery then that could be a possibility too.
 
I was in a similiar postition with a livery who lost her job. She had been with me for a couple of years, always paid her bills on time and was a pleasure to have around.

Basically I let her pay a little at a time, rather than monthly. Also I allowed her grass livery over the summer to save the cost of paying for a stable. Fortunatley she found another job by the winter so the problem was resolved.

However I only ever have a few liveries at a time, which are on my own yard at home, so do not have the outlays of a large commercial yard. Equally the other livery was aware of the situation and was sympathetic too, so no resentment was bred.
 
No one has to do anything, but from a caring point of view and thinking also of the welfare of the horse it would be nice if the YO could come up with suggestions as already mentioned to tie the livery over without the bill becoming even bigger and them having to get rid of their precious hores but only if it doesnt end up costing the YO in actual £££'s. Everyone needs a helping hand at some stage, what if it happened to you or me...dont even want to think about it.
 
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