FAO all working spangle peeps

[Spudlet]

You know who you are....

Henry and I went to see the doggy shrink today and he says that Henry needs to learn to channel his working instincts

He was being very restrained about this, keeping it to using dummies and things, then I mentioned beating and his eyes lit up (think he was nervous of raising the subject of shooting in case I turned out to be a rampant anti who accused him of being croooool

) and he said he personally loved to see the dogs working, that Henry would probably love it and that we ought to give it a go at a small shoot with Henry kept on a long line / lead to start off

Sooooooo.... guess I'd better get researching then!

Any words of support gratefully recieved, no matter how much I'd quite like to do this I am a wuss about new situations

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ooooh, no practical advice except for well done, good luck and go for it - he might just surprise you

 

[Scranny_Ann]

Wooohooo another member of the working spangle club

You'll be fine - well i mean you have us at hand for any questions/tips and for a good rant when needs be - what more could you need!!

 

[Spudlet]

He might surprise quite a few people if I lose my grip on him

 

[Spudlet]

Thank you!

Everything the guy said made sense, about using his drive to be moving and to be hunting and sniffing as a reward for him, rather than trying to get him back to me (which if course stops his fun) and rewarding him with other things like fuss or food.

So I have got a booklet on long line training to begin with and we took his dummy to the beach today - will post a piccy of him with it later

A friend at work is going to speak to her brother to see if there are any good trainers locally that we can carry on working with, and we'll see how he gets on

 

[kirstyhen]

First thing you need to do, find a Clay Pigeon Shoot and walk him nearby to see how he is with Gunshot. You don't want to scare the bejesus out of him, build up gradually getting closer, until he is relaxed about being fairly close to them

Otto had been pigeon Shooting so was used to one or two guns going off occasionally, but out beating you are walking towards a line of guns firing in rapid succession, and it can be daunting for the humans (I was caking myself the first time!) nevermind the dogs!

Find a small shoot and go by yourself a few times, so you can a) see how things work without the stress of a pulling spangle, and b) get to know people so that when you arrive with miscreant spangle they forgive you

Explain your situation and just make sure they don't mind you dragging along a poncy show dog

When you do eventually take him, be aware that he will a) pull like a prat on steroids, and b) most likely whinge at every oppurtunity

Otto is a fairly special case, not all dogs are introduced to working like he has been, but I should imagine you would probably be best to do the same with Henry as he is equally as 'special'

He went for his first taster on Wed, kept on the lead all day, but still got to 'work' - I was pointing him into cover and telling him to 'look in', lots of praise when he did, if he flushed anything we stopped and he was told to 'leave it', lots of praise when he did. Same when birds went overhead, lots of fuss for ignoring them.

At the end of the day he was worked through a bit of cover, off the lead, with some birds in, exactly the same, kept in close, told to look in, leave it and lots of praise. This may be a bit harder for you to do, as my Daddy is in charge of the Beating Line, so he knows where I can let Otto off safely without risking ruining a paying Gun's day! Hence you needing to become pals with the Shoot before taking Henry

The next few times he will probably do exactly the same, until the novelty has worn off a bit and I trust him a bit more!
Then he will be off the lead, but expected to stay at heel and work the same as he was doing on the lead. That's the unusual part for a Spaniel, but with Otto I think it's the way forward. He may go on a longish line before that part, but I don't really want him to learn to work to far away from me, as his problem is staying close!

By then the season will more than likely be over and we will have to wait until next season to progress

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]

Everything the guy said made sense, about using his drive to be moving and to be hunting and sniffing as a reward for him, rather than trying to get him back to me (which if course stops his fun) and rewarding him with other things like fuss or food.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what I have had to do with Otto, mainly because toys, treats and fuss do nothing for him! If he does as he is told, I get off his case and he can do what he wants (which is secretely what I want him to do, he just doesn't know I'm sneaky like that!)

 

[Spudlet]

Ooo eeeer oooo I'm quite scared - I don't know anything about shooting

Going to pay up my nobs subs anyway!

Henry is not poncy although the doggy shrink did say he was funny-looking

 

[kirstyhen]

Neither do I!

But you learn and if you can find a small, friendly shoot you will have a whale of a time!

I don't really think any Spaniel is poncy, they all love muck too much, show or working bred!

 

[Spudlet]

Tehe - the shrink took us for a walk aong a lane with loads of cover on one side, and sent Henry in as a reward, and Henry was trying to dig out a rabbit and got filthy

The guy said he hoped I didn't mind him going in my car like that!

I said he's a spaniel and I've had him a while.... this is not our first time in the muck....

I may add the guy's quote to my sig - 'He's a funny looking thing, isn't he?'

 

[kirstyhen]

Aww, poor Henry!

Otto gets, "That animal looks fit", roughly translated mean 'Jesus, that Spaniel looks mental even for a Spaniel!!'

 

[Bearsmum]

We have a working spangle but I'm not sure if going carpet fitting with my OH really counts!
Since we lost our Lab she has to go out in the van or she howls - and I mean really howls, a bit like Chewbacca in Star Wars - if she's left on her own for too long. Really must get a video of it!

JDx

 

[Cop-Pop]

If you've got a local shoot speak to the gamekeeper - they will tell you when is a good time to take him and give you tips. When I took Yellow Dog for his first shoot the gamekeeper told us which day to go and sent us off with a very experienced beater with an equally experienced dog. Unfortunately Yellow Dog didnt cope well with the bangs and when they sounded the hunt horn to signal the end he nearly had a heart attack (he LOVES the hounds)

so we've only gone back a couple of times.

 

[Spudlet]

There is no doubt a local shoot but not sure where

I will have to find out!

There is a woman at work who works her dogs but she is not likely to be supportive I don't think, I once mentioned it to her and she was very dismissive and made me feel a bit stupid for mentioning it, so no help there

 

[Ravenwood]

Hen has given you loads of excellent advice but I just want to add that I wouldn't go straight to a clay shoot where the guns are going off constantly.

I would firstly find a gun dog trainer who perhaps holds lessons in the summer (thats what we do with a small group) and the dog is introduced to a starting pistol. We all walk round with dogs on leads, the trainer shoots the pistol and dog is immediately commanded to sit - that way he will be introduced to just the one shot at a time which is a little less scary that hundreds of guns all going off at once at the stands on a clay shoot

Or if you can get yourself a starting pistol you can do it yourself to see how he reacts.

The most vital two commands that you need to have instilled 100% when out shooting is the recall and stop whistle - practise, practise, practise - its got to be good before you can let him off the lead - and its pretty tricky walking a dog on a lead through waist high kale in a game plot

To be honest not many shoots (round here anyway) encourage too many dogs in the beating line and they are much more welcomed in the picking up section - there you can tag along, stand where you want, choose a perfect retrieve for your dog etc.

When taking a young or first time dog on a shoot you don't want to be at the front with birds raining down on you as it blows their mind, you want to be at the back, keep him on a lead and if it just so happens that a bird falls dead near you then you can ask him to retrieve it. It takes a little while for them to get used to carry a live bird as a nasty scratch on the nose from a claw can put them off.

Once the drive is over you can let him off to sweep and that's where Cockers really come into their own, working the cover to find all those birds

You and Henry will love it! Just find that trainer, have the summer to practise your skills and find a shoot next season that will allow you to introduce him gradually.

Feel free to keep asking questions - we all started first time once

 

[Cop-Pop]

Do you have a local hunt? Our local hunt is involved with the local shoot but don't know if this is a common thing or not. they drop leaflets off at the yard with shooting and hunting dates on so we know when to avoid going up the hill

 

[Spudlet]

Thank you RW

We hear shoots a lot out walking which is good as the noise is obviously less intense at a distance, and he was fine at fireworks time. I may start with party poppers at Christmas and then move onto a starting pistol

Recall and stop are what we struggle with

But will keep plugging away with the long line and see how we get on. No rush!

Another person I work with was going to ask her brother abut local gundog trainers anyway so will see what she comes up with. I have also seen a book about clicker training gundogs recommended on a few forums, and since we already use a clicker I might have a look at this and see what it says.

Sure I'll be plaguing you all with questions, hell I don't even know what to wear **forsees shopping opportunity**

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]

The most vital two commands that you need to have instilled 100% when out shooting is the recall and stop whistle - practise, practise, practise - its got to be good before you can let him off the lead - and its pretty tricky walking a dog on a lead through waist high kale in a game plot

[/ QUOTE ]

Or 7 foot Artichokes

The reason I suggested a Clay Shoot is because of my Mum's IWS, he was very gunshy and the starting pistol really set him off.
So my Mum started walking him a mile away from the local clay shoot and gradually got closer over the course of a few weeks. He isn't in the slightest bit gunshy now.
If you start off far enough away it's just lots of little pops in the distance

I am lucky in that the shoot I go to with Otto, actually needs the dogs on the lead or bang at heel for the first two drives and for the rest of the drives the cover is as such, it is easy enough to keep him on the lead, but I appreciate it's not like that at every shoot.

 

[Spudlet]

I used to share a horse on a yard where the landowner had a shoot - sadly the horse's owner was a nut and my mate that kept her horse there has given the horse up

so no longer have a valid excuse to wander around there

For the time being will just keep walking Henry at the country park with the shoot close by as that must still be helpful in getting his paw in. There are also odd shoots near to work, so he does hear gunfire quite a lot!

 

[Patches]

Not read your replies yet Hopping_Robin, but I'll be interested in them.

Is it common for some of the dogs on shoots to go on leads for the duration? If it is, I wouldn't mind having a go with Harvey at some point as we have a local pheasant shoot and a clay pigeon shoot too. Now, I know he's a show cocker, but hey, I don't mind volunteering IF he'd be of any use whatsoever. There is a man down the lane from us who trains his working springers and is the gamekeeper for the pheasant shoot as well as a member of the clay pigeon shoot. I am sure he'd be open to giving us a bit of private tuition.

It'd be interesting but the recall would worry me....so I like the idea of giving it a go on a lead.

Good luck. Sounds like you're in for some fun times ahead....Henry too!

 

[Ravenwood]

Patches - if you start off at a local shoot, where everyone knows that you are just there to try/train your young dog - then there will be no problem with keeping him on the lead.

Once the drive has finished (and as long as you are not doing a back to back) you can let him off the lead to do as he wants working the cover for birds.

At a clay shoot - its doesn't matter a hoot - just keep him on the lead. Only let him off if you are sure he is not going to run in and knock the person shooting at the stand off his feet!!

The stop whistle is most important really once you are a fully fledged picker upper or beater!! - its very, very important!

 

[Ravenwood]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you RW

. I have also seen a book about clicker training gundogs recommended on a few forums, and since we already use a clicker I might have a look at this and see what it says.

Sure I'll be plaguing you all with questions, hell I don't even know what to wear **forsees shopping opportunity**

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't comment on clicker training!! I tried it once and found that I either dropped the clicker, had it upside down at the vital moment and it was all a bit of a disaster! But I would admire anyone who achieves it

The shopping side is the best bit - but I am afraid anything with "shooting" attached to the label (the same as horses or fishing) is sky high!

 

[Ravenwood]

Hen, Sorry, I didn't mean to contradict you - re: the clay shoot - just offer an alternative.

Dogs are just like horses - there are so many different ways of achieving the same result and you just pick and choose what you think will suit you best

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]
Hen, Sorry, I didn't mean to contradict you - re: the clay shoot - just offer an alternative.

Dogs are just like horses - there are so many different ways of achieving the same result and you just pick and choose what you think will suit you best

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh no, I know you weren't was just explaining why I suggested it

God, if only we could train all dogs the same way, wouldn't it make life easier!!

 

[Spudlet]

lol about the clicker - it takes a bit of getting used to, I have lost count of the times I dropped mine (generally on Henry's head) until I got a wrist strap for the dratted thing

But the advantage is that when Henry sees it he knows that we are 'doing training' so pays attention (a bit anyway

)

I would like a nice coat like the one Hen was wearing in her Otto pics, but given how far that is probably out of my price range I guess I will have to settle for a small bloke's wax jacket from the local feed merchants to start with

 

[kirstyhen]

A wax jacket is much better than tweed when you are trying to push through a Blackthorn Hedge, and if you wearing tweed you have to get someone to pick the burrs off you at the end of the day

Although I do like my Tweed Jacket

Oh, and Tweed ends up weighing a ton if you get wet, especially if you have pockets full of hand cream, lip balm, gloves, dog treats, a whistle, and spare dog lead, tissues, etc etc

 

[Spudlet]

I had not thought about burrs - good point

 

[Patches]

Fabulous Ravenwood.

It's our neighbouring farmer who runs the local clay pigeon shooting club, along with the gamekeeper from the pheasant shoot (also on another neighbouring farmer's land). Said gamekeeper lives about 400 yards from our farm gate and is a hive of useful information. He's currently re-training a rescued five year old Springer and has already told me to give him a knock after shooting season is over for some basic lessons/tips in starting off Harvey's education to get it right from the off.

As I say, I know he's a show cocker, but there are still some hidden spangle traits in there that I'm sure we'd be able to bring to the surface with some training. I wouldn't be expecting any high level working from him at all.

It's more a case of living where we do and utilising the "facilities" if possible to give Harvey something to enjoy.

They're a fab bunch of people.....even if they do like shooting right overhead when I hack past!

 

[Spudlet]

Henry is a show spaniel too

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
Henry is a show spaniel too

[/ QUOTE ]

Another "Airhead"! I will be in good company. You have my sympathy. If they are all like Jasper was the selective deafness gives rise to murderous tendancies and the stubborn ignorant streak...well...that's just soul destroying!

Now I know why you often ask for someone to remind you why you wanted a spaniel!

God love them! I thought he was a show Spaniel, given his head shape...but you never can be 100% certain.