FAO SIMSAR

[ QUOTE ]
Ooooooh I never knew about that.....to M&S! Well, not right now, it's rainy and late, but tomorrow! I'm actually rather excited by this revelation!
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I don;t know if they still do them though
frown.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
- have you seen the labs at Crufts? They wouldn't be able to do a day's work in their life!

[/ QUOTE ]

That is utter nonsense. Many of the top labrador kennels work AND show their dogs, and recently a dual champion labrador was made up which is a very tough thing to do!

I have labs and i show them, but they can also quite happily do a days work.

I dont think that all show dogs should be bred from. Only those dogs that are fit for their purpose, proven in the show ring OR field, health tested etc etc etc....

Its interesting you say not to knock working breeders, when that is exactly what you're doing to show breeders! Even worse, you're making a huge generalisation about show breeders. We're not all breeding fat, heavy, short legged labradors
wink.gif
 
Its nice to hear from someone who shows and works a lab - but you have to admit that you are few and far between - how often do you work your labs - 3/4 times a week or just occassionally on the beating line? To me most of the labs at Crufts look like Rottweilers without the tan points and a full tail.

I am not knocking show breeders - I know that there are huge amounts of money in this game and of course on the other hand take Pocklea Remus - just about the most prolific labrador FTC stud dog ever - I think they made about £80K just from stud fees alone - nearly all working labs can be traced back to him.

I can see that I am arguing a losing battle here amongst the posters on this thread - but I just wanted to show the case that not all cross breds, non KC registered pups end up in rescue homes if they are bred for working homes.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Its nice to hear from someone who shows and works a lab - but you have to admit that you are few and far between - how often do you work your labs - 3/4 times a week or just occassionally on the beating line? To me most of the labs at Crufts look like Rottweilers without the tan points and a full tail.

I am not knocking show breeders - I know that there are huge amounts of money in this game and of course on the other hand take Pocklea Remus - just about the most prolific labrador FTC stud dog ever - I think they made about £80K just from stud fees alone - nearly all working labs can be traced back to him.

I can see that I am arguing a losing battle here amongst the posters on this thread - but I just wanted to show the case that not all cross breds, non KC registered pups end up in rescue homes if they are bred for working homes.

[/ QUOTE ]


Theres no money in showing, if thats what you mean
confused.gif
You dont get money for winning unless the show happens to put on prize money (maybe about £20) for best in show! I think Crufts only has about £100 prize money for best in show! When you consider that it costs upwards of £20 just to enter the classes at a show, add on the petrol costs and all the equipment you need you would find that us show folk are very out of pocket at the end of the year! Thankfully, we do it for the love of it and not for the money
grin.gif


I agree with you 100% that not all cross breeds end up in rescue. I know several people who breed working crosses (lurchers, gundog crosses etc) and they are bred for a specific purpose using top quality parents and produce outstanding working dog
smile.gif
The breeding i have a problem with is people who buy two pet quality dogs and breed them for stupid reasons (for kids to experience it, because they think its good for a bitch to have a litter, for money) with no thought of health or compatibility. Or those who are producing designer dogs with stupid names and crazy price tags!!
 
I own Rosie, a 5 month old black and tan JRT bitch. I say black and tan as thats the correct term but she;s actually tri colour with perfectly symettrical markings. I grew up around various spaniels and terriers (workers) which were kennelled and so am new to this 'housedog' lark
wink.gif
. Last spaniel died last year and father got a cat instead, I can kind of see his logic
laugh.gif

I do laying on the sofa with Rosie. No seriously, I do. Thats when she's not attacking joggers and getting me into trouble with the neighbours. She'll have the obligatory council estate ABSO by the time she's one.

I hope to do a bit of everything with her, a bit of rally, maybe agility when she's older.

I am against breeding for fashion/money.
 
In that case then we are on the same wave length - but I have to point out that children have to start somewhere - my daughter wants a cocker to work and my son wants a border collie (God knows why!!!)

But you have to admit from successful showing comes stud and breeder fees - that's where the money lies as in the example I gave of Pocklea Remus. And there we go on the whole cycle again - breeding!!!

I should just point out that I have a top bred labrador from amazing FTC pedigree but he has OCD in his elbows - this was diagnosed at 6 months and specialists and vets told me he wouldn't live past 5. However, at 6 he is still leading a full and active working life as long as I take precautions - ie only work him in the right conditions, no road work etc.

My point being that you can have the most fabulous dog on paper but not in physical condition, I just wish that elbow scoring was as prioritised as hip scoring.

I would very happily take on a Sprocker, Springador etc, knowing that they would likely be much more healthier and be an excellent working dog with the lesser chance of the physical disabilities.
 
[ QUOTE ]
In that case then we are on the same wave length - but I have to point out that children have to start somewhere - my daughter wants a cocker to work and my son wants a border collie (God knows why!!!)

But you have to admit from successful showing comes stud and breeder fees - that's where the money lies as in the example I gave of Pocklea Remus. And there we go on the whole cycle again - breeding!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that depends on how you look at it. I mean, to fully health test a dog costs about £800-£1000 for my breeds. If you take into consideration the money spent campaigning the dog at shows, then the price of raising a litter, including any complications with whelping and stuff you generally dont make much money from breeding. The only people who do are those who are churning pups out. Most breeders will only have 1 or 2 litters a year and i imagine most are like me and put any "profit" straight back into the dogs. Certainly there is money to be made breeding dogs, but thats only by doing it in a way i dont agree with
smile.gif
I dont have any stud dogs, one passed away last year, and one was neutered on monday as im not so interested in keeping stud dogs - its not worth the hassle for a few stud fees
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry ravenwood i can't see the wider picture.

I see thousands of dogs dyeing every day and then i see people breeding more and more.

Oh and i have nothing against mixed breeds. Have one of me own and a charmer he is.

[/ QUOTE ]


The difference between a responsible breeder and a backyard-if-it-has-functioning-ovaries-and-a-uterus-let's-make-some-use-of-it-breeders :

Responsible breeders tries to breed dogs with good temperament that hopefully are at less risk of needing to be rehomed due to temperamental problems. They try to offer such support to their puppy buyers so that the owner hopefully does not end up in such problems with the puppy, that they feel they can not keep it.

If something still goes wrong, people can after all become allergic, lose their work, get divorced or even die etc, a responsible breeder then takes back dogs they've created or if unable to take back (because perhaps you have lost your job or some other to me valid reason) they still does their very best to make sure that ''their'' dogs does not end up taking up room in a rescue.




The other type of breeder doesn't really care about whether they breed dogs with good temperament or not as long as they are either cute as puppies or if you mistreat them a little, their looks will make people want to save them, even though it means buying them from you. As for supporting the puppy buyer with advice, forget it.

This other type of breeder believes their responsibilities ends as soon as they are paid and the pup and its new owner are out through their door. If the new owner then cant keep their puppy, where will puppies from such breeders most likely end up taking up place, if not in a rescue?





If everybody truly did stop breeding their pet dogs/bitches beginning today, there would be no ancestors to today's pet dogs/bitches left within about 20 years.

If you still want to have pet dogs/bitches around 20 + years form now, the question is who do you want to breed them? The ones that does everything they possibly can to keep what they created out of rescues or the ones who does not care if what they created ends up in a rescue?



confused.gif
 
Don't you show basenji's ? My YO used to show them too, many, many years ago
smile.gif


The difference is that this breed along with the Norwegian Buhunds that I used to have, are few and far between.

Labradors and Springers on the other hand are proliferous!
wink.gif
And the difference between working and showing dogs is intangible.

It breaks my heart to see labradors on leads, unbeleivably fat with no muscle, and I often see Springers the same, full tail, no muscle etc when I compare them to my dog's life that is so active.

I am just trying to make the point (again) that some dog owners are not intetested in showing, breed standards etc but give a dog a home that is full of activeness and working to what they are bred for whether that be pure bred or cross bred - we don't all keep our dogs at home from 9-5 with a 30 minute walk in the park!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you show basenji's ? My YO used to show them too, many, many years ago
smile.gif


The difference is that this breed along with the Norwegian Buhunds that I used to have, are few and far between.

Labradors and Springers on the other hand are proliferous!
wink.gif
And the difference between working and showing dogs is intangible.

It breaks my heart to see labradors on leads, unbeleivably fat with no muscle, and I often see Springers the same, full tail, no muscle etc when I compare them to my dog's life that is so active.

I am just trying to make the point (again) that some dog owners are not intetested in showing, breed standards etc but give a dog a home that is full of activeness and working to what they are bred for whether that be pure bred or cross bred - we don't all keep our dogs at home from 9-5 with a 30 minute walk in the park!

[/ QUOTE ]

I do have a basenji yes
smile.gif
And i also have labradors (they have been in the family for generations so im stuck with them
grin.gif
) and pugs.

When we breed a litter of labs (occassionally, and none planned for the future) we dont sell them to show homes as unfortunately fat labs are fashionable and i dont like to see it. The majority are fit these days, but some people still insist on having them obese and tell people they shouldnt be exercising their labs
shocked.gif
Mine are only sold as pets but several have been working dogs as well. But i do like them to be kept as family pets primarily
smile.gif
If people are not interested in breed standards and want a cross, i always direct them to the local rescue centres.
 
B's 'grandad'/co-breeder (owned the stud and bred the brood) has been breeding since the 1960s and shows at the Sieger in Germany - he has never made a penny from dogs, he just happens to make the income elsewhere to keep the whole shebang running - of the litter, one is working/pet
tongue.gif
, one is showing and the others pets, from two show/working animals.
I don't know any GOOD (ie their stock is good) breeders who make money from dogs. Once you've spent your money on hips, elbows, eyes, haem tests for parents, vacs, chipping, tattoing, DNA, there isn't much left.

I'll say it again, crossbreeding is not the way to reduce the chance of hereditary conditions like HD and ED - screening and breeding from low-scored stock proven to throw good hips and elbows will, not hammering late maturing, larger dogs before 12 months will.

If you cross an two unscored dogs prone to HD then you are actually heightening the chance. These conditions don't just 'happen', they can be screened for and the risks minimised.
Of course there are dogs with good hips who throw bad hips - it is up to us to do our research, look at the published stats and make sure to take those dogs out of breeding programmes.
 
Was that a QR? In my breed at least, the two are not mutually exclusive
smile.gif


Trainer bloke A always says 'Your progress depends on the genetics of the dog, the ability of the dog and most importantly, the ability of the handler'
smile.gif


Trainer bloke B says 'Bah, those slopey-backed showlines, good for nothing
tongue.gif
'
 
Yeah sorry QR!

Mainly I am thinking of JRTs, where unless its a parson - there aren't any pedigrees. I wouldn't choose a parson just for pedigree - I'd choose a jack from working parents, doing well in their field.
 
Well, am I correct in thinking you are saying, if you wanted a working Jack you would not buy a parson?
Parsons are the pure bred Jack Russell, they are fantastic workers, they Jacks were bred to run with the hounds and go to ground on the fox...working all day. The Jacks people think of and breed and work today cannot do this job, the pure bred parson however can, it is the closest thing to the original dog bred for original purpose. It is of much more stable temprement too, I have never had one of my parsons get in a fight. Terrier men using short legged jacks have to keep them well away from hounds, they can and will get themselves killed by the pack, no such trouble with a parson, a parson becomes part of the pack.
So to top off the fact I believe they are far far better workers than short legged JRT's in the first place (obedience and training is far easier with a parson too so for ferreting etc you cannot beat them) you can have a pure bred, health tested, pedigree dog instead of a dog that truely speaking you have no idea what it will grow into, what blood it has in it or what health problems it may have. Simple choice in my opinion.
wink.gif
 
Our local hunt has typical short leged jacks that live with the hounds and they have NEVER had a single problem, as for the keeping up with hounds I don't think that I am wrong in saying that most terrier men don't ride horses to hounds anymore it is usually done on a quad or from a 4x4.
grin.gif
 
Yes you're right, they are in boxes on quads now, but my point is that isn't what they were bred to do originally. The short jrts wouldn't have done the job at all because they didn't have quad bikes to take them on and they wouldn't have kept up with the hounds all day. My point being they are unfit for the original purpose for which they were bred. My local hunts also keep a couple of shorties with the hounds, not without past problems though, I was talking more the terrier men who bring visiting terriers in to work on hunt days, not the hunts own dogs.
 
Sorry I tried to reply earlier but had a power cut. When our terrier man lived at the kennels his JRT got on fine with the hounds as do the huntsman's who are worked by the terrier man.
I can see what you are saying about being bred for a purpose but surely that is why they now use short legged ones as they are now bred smaller to be able to travel easily on a quad and still go to ground, so they are still bred for purpose it is just that the purpose has changed.
smile.gif
 
We will have to agree to disagree on that I'm afraid Simsar, they aren't really any smaller, infact body wise alot are much bigger than my parsons, parsons just have more leg (legs mean nothing when goign to ground)! At the very best they can do the same job as a parson (discounting running with hounds for a minute) and as I have already said a parson from a reputable breeder is health tested etc etc and you know exactly what you are getting rather than a dog that could be a cross of anything, they vary so much in type, temprement, conformation etc... I know which I would rather spend my money on.
 
Also if parsons aren't better than shorties for working, can you tell me why I get every tom dick and harry that has a working jrt bitch around here, approach me to use my pure bred stud dog? Reasons given by most are...'to put a bit of leg back on the pups'...'to put some pure blood in the line'. These very much sound like reasons given by people who are recognising that working jrt's are becoming too far removed from what they were originally meant to be to do the job. By the way.... occasionally I do let someone with a small working type use him
shocked.gif
tongue.gif
Didn't think I was going to say that did you?! But only people I know will breed the litter responsibly and that all the pups will be in working homes and only if they are keeping a pup themselves to work and have the bitch eye tested.
 
OH's Parent's have a short legged JRT and honestly his back legs terrify me, I don't think they can support him, when he's tired it's almost like they give way
frown.gif
He's already had Patella and Crutiate Problems and he's only just over a year.
When they walk him, he's unable to run for any longer than 10 mins without having a break.

Personally I would never buy a short legged JRT (although Terriers aren't my cup of tea anyway!) after the problems they've had. In fact nearly every short legged JRT I know seems to have luxating Patellas, I always wonder how much of that stems from specifically breeding short legs.

No offence meant Simsar, if yours are working bred, I'm sure they are far tougher animal than the creature my OH's Parents own!
 
Sorry having computer problems, no need to agree to disagree I see your point, Sorry I should have explained better I didn't mean smaller I meant shorter legged (and I don't mean that for going to ground I mean for being cramped in a box for most of the day).
I also agree with the outcome of some matings being very different type confo etc (saw one of those nasty ones at the vets this morning poor little thing was very sick and had been bought out of pity off the gypsies but was to young to be away from the bitch). If you look at my pic on the other post there is only one pup that is different from the rest and he was just a fatty they are all VERY similar now they are maturing.
And as for being health tested I have never had a pedigree dog so did not really know much about this till last night, but I did get the vet to check her eyes this morning and he said they were fine, if I decide to keep a bitch to breed from I will have her H.E.E tested before I breed from it.
As with when I breed from my broodmares I take my time to choose a stallion that compliments the individual mares, I also did the same with my bitch and I and the owners of the pups are happy with the outcome.
smile.gif
 
Just to add I have no problem using a longer legged dog if it suits my bitch.
smile.gif
tongue.gif


Hen. That's really sad but it sounds like he has a nice home, however none of the pups from her last litter have had a single problem (apart from one being travel sick!! which the owners are working on and she is getting better).

If any of my pups had been poorly put together and I thought there was a health risk I would have had them PTS and not bred from the bitch again.
 
Now this is where I am a little different, I believe my JRT is parsons type - I WOULD choose a parsons type over a common JRT type, however I would not neccessarilly choose a pedigree.

Stumpy mangled legged JRTs make me cry inside, bowed legs are not conducive to the work they need to do surely? I chose both my dogs for their conformation - long straight legs, athletic build, good temprement..

Roly (mongrel, out of a parsons type JRT bitch - father common farm JRT)
Roly11.jpg


Lil
IMG_4028.jpg


Lils mum (left) and Dad (right)
ds213.jpg

ds212.jpg
 
My bitch does not have stumpy mangled legs
shocked.gif
they are perfectly straight and free moving, i also chose mine on confo and having seen both parents who were also straight and free moving and chose the sire for the same reasons.
grin.gif
. She is not short legged as her legs are actually in proportion to her body, she is just small!!
tongue.gif
 
Haha Simsar, you could have a pair of slopey backed, wonky-hocked, 'deformed' - yes, people have come out with that on this forum
tongue.gif
- dogs....I'm now off to take the cripples out for an uphill yomp in the snow, and maybe have a wee ski down their backs while I'm out there
smirk.gif
 
I have no knowledge of JRT's at all so I'm staying out of this one, but Kitsune, I have to say all your dogs are lovely but Roly really caught my eye, he is gorgeous!
smile.gif


Sorry to go OT.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top