Faracat (and any other genetic knowledgeables) - buckskin

[CrazyDazy]

Hello all,

Can someone explain the buckskin (not dun) gene to me?

I used to have palomino, so did a lot of research into dilutes/double dilutes/how they affect different base colours, etc ..

But a friend has just bought a buckskin mare, and we were talking about the genetics of the colour. I know the buckskin gene isn't a dilute, so is it a simple coat modifier, such as the agouti turning a black into bay? Does it only work on a black/bay base? What happens if the horse is chestnut and has the buckskin gene? Is it dominant?

Please keep it simple for a numpty

Thank you.

Cadburys mini rolls are available, although they're left over from Halloween so might be a bit stale ...

 

[Equi]

Will be reading with interest (my stallion is buckskin)

Can I have a mini roll even though I've not helped?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

OK you are almost there. The buckskin gene is actually the CREAM gene, yes the exact same one that causes palomino. So a chestnut horse with the 'buckskin' gene is actually a chestnut horse with the cream gene - so a palomino.

To put it simply to make a buckskin you need a black horse with some form of agouti (to make it brown, bay or wild bay) and ONE copy of cream. Two copies of cream would give you a Perlino, which is similar visually to a Cremello (also a double cream dilute).

So the basic Cream gene options are

Black + cream = smoky black
Black + cream + cream = smoky cream
Black + agouti = buckskin
Black + agouti + cream + cream = perlino
Chestnut + cream = palomino
Chestnut + cream + cream = cremello.

Agouti doesn't alter chestnut coats.

You can generally tell which version of agouti a buckskin has and often horses with the brown version are often called brown buckskins.

ETA - here's a photo of a buckskin mare with her palomino foal. The mare must carry chestnut as the foal is a chestnut based colour.

 

[albeg]

Buckskin is the cream gene on bay.

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html

Edit: Faracat got there before me.

 

[CrazyDazy]

OK, perhaps I've been barking up the wrong tree then - I thought dun was the dilute (that made bay into dun as it makes chestnut into palomino) and buckskin was something different?

And yes equi, you can have a mini roll too

 

[Meowy Catkin]

That site is always worth posting alibheg as it has great photos.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yes cream is a dilute gene. It is an incomplete dilute, which means that one copy of the gene gives half the effect and two copies give the full effect. Hence why cremellos, perlinos and smoky creams are paler than palominos, buckskins and smoky blacks.

 

[CrazyDazy]

So what's dun? Is dun something different or just another name for buckskin? Maybe I dreamt there was a difference! Thank you for humouring a bit of an idiot ...

 

[Equi]

My stallion always tends to produce a perlino foal to a cream dun mare. I have my own cream dun mare but not sure about breeding her. My preggo mare is bright bay so fingers crossed I get a healthy foal bonus would be a buckskin lol

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Dun is a separate gene. It is a complete dominant dilute. So you only need one copy to have the full effect and having two copies makes no difference visually. Dun also works on both chestnut and black based colours. Bay dun and buckskin do look similar at a quick glance, but duns have 'dun factor markings' such as leg bars, dorsal stripes, cobwebbing, ear bars and shoulder shading. These can be harder to see on paler based horses. Some buckskins can have counter shading which can result in dorsal stripes and can confuse people. Also some horses have both cream and dun, which gives interesting colours such as Dunalino and Dunskin.

Dun factor markings. http://www.grullablue.com/colors/dun_factor_markings.htm

ETA - Grullo is another name for a black + dun horse.

Equi - a super example of a buckskin there. Finger's crossed that he passes cream onto his foal.

 

[albeg]

Dun is a separate gene. It is a complete dominant dilute. So you only need one copy to have the full effect and having two copies makes no difference visually. Dun also works on both chestnut and black based colours. Bay dun and buckskin do look similar at a quick glance, but duns have 'dun factor markings' such as leg bars, dorsal stripes, cobwebbing, ear bars and shoulder shading. These can be harder to see on paler based horses. Some buckskins can have counter shading which can result in dorsal stripes and can confuse people. Also some horses have both cream and dun, which gives interesting colours such as Dunalino and Dunskin.

Dun factor markings. http://www.grullablue.com/colors/dun_factor_markings.htm

And over here they call bucksins dun, causing even more confusion! (e.g. Connemaras)

 

[JJS]

So what's dun? Is dun something different or just another name for buckskin? Maybe I dreamt there was a difference! Thank you for humouring a bit of an idiot ...

You're right that they're different. Like cream, dun is a modifier gene affecting the base colour. On some coats it can look quite similar to buckskin, but on others it looks entirely different. A quick Google is usually the best way to find images to compare.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I know I have said this before but I love your stallion Equi

 

[CrazyDazy]

Ah that's it! I got dun and buckskin arse about face. I thought dun was the cream dilute and buckskin the separate gene. That's fantastic, thank you!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Glad to help.

 

[Bigbenji]

Faracat- my stallion is a very strongly dappled golden buckskin. His sire, grandsire and great grandsire were all the same.

Is there anything in the genes that passes the dapples on along with the colour?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Sooty which adds black pigment, can cause dapples.

Sooty buckskin.

Note that this one has a dorsal stripe, but it's not a 'dun factor' dorsal stripe.

 

[Paint Me Proud]

I get so many odd looks when i say my horse is buckskin, people just think it's a stupid americanism and many still insist on calling him dun, which is one of my pet peeves, lol!

My boy also has, i believe, the silver dapple gene. The silver dapple gene on buckskin dilutes the black points to a chocolate brown.

(ignore the effects the appaloosa genes are having on him too!)

 

[Bigbenji]

Thanks faracat.

That is indeed the colour of my boy.

He is going to be covering for the first time next year so hoping he passes his colour on.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I get so many odd looks when i say my horse is buckskin, people just think it's a stupid americanism and many still insist on calling him dun, which is one of my pet peeves, lol!

My boy also has, i believe, the silver dapple gene. The silver dapple gene on buckskin dilutes the black points to a chocolate brown.

(ignore the effects the appaloosa genes are having on him too!)

You have really *DUN* it now sorry about the pun, I love your horse anyway now you just made it worst > goes to cry in corner as want him for myself.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I get so many odd looks when i say my horse is buckskin, people just think it's a stupid americanism and many still insist on calling him dun, which is one of my pet peeves, lol!

My boy also has, i believe, the silver dapple gene. The silver dapple gene on buckskin dilutes the black points to a chocolate brown.

(ignore the effects the appaloosa genes are having on him too!)

I get so many odd looks when i say my horse is buckskin, people just think it's a stupid americanism and many still insist on calling him dun, which is one of my pet peeves, lol!

My boy also has, i believe, the silver dapple gene. The silver dapple gene on buckskin dilutes the black points to a chocolate brown.

(ignore the effects the appaloosa genes are having on him too!)

You have really *DUN* it now sorry about the pun, I love your horse anyway now you just made it worst > goes to cry in corner as want him for myself.
I love the near hind white as my girly has

Faracat do they all have this browning from winter going into spring???

Summer coat

autumn where top creme hairs gone leaving brown coat

winter coat

her mum I think it is the far left

her dad

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

this is a livery mare - is she a dun- sorry not good picture will find better tomorrow

 

[Gloi]

I get so many odd looks when i say my horse is buckskin, people just think it's a stupid americanism and many still insist on calling him dun, which is one of my pet peeves, lol!

My boy also has, i believe, the silver dapple gene. The silver dapple gene on buckskin dilutes the black points to a chocolate brown.

(ignore the effects the appaloosa genes are having on him too!)

He doesn't look silver dapple buckskin to me. IMO it would show up more in the lightening of his mane and tail, like it does in this one. You could always test for it.

 

[Paint Me Proud]

He doesn't look silver dapple buckskin to me. IMO it would show up more in the lightening of his mane and tail, like it does in this one. You could always test for it.

Many of the other photos i've seen of silver buckskins look very much like my boy. His mane is a deep chocolate colour with lighter ends.

Is there something else that would dilute the black points to brown?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

HGA - I have seen a few buckskins and that have a darker winter coat. I have also seen palominos with a paler winter coat, compared to their summer coat. I don't understand exactly why this should be though.

From those photos I would guess that your livery mare could be a brown buckskin. I look forward to more photos. You could also compare her to Wagtail's filly to see if you think they look similar.

PMP - I vaguely remember someone mentioning that LP (leopard pattern complex) can sometimes have a fading effect. I have had a search and found this. http://equinetapestry.com/tag/leopard-complex/ Whether this is the answer for your horse I don't know, but it's certainly a possibility. You are right that silver dilutes black pigment. Have you DNA'd your boy?

 

[Paint Me Proud]

HGA - I have seen a few buckskins and that have a darker winter coat. I have also seen palominos with a paler winter coat, compared to their summer coat. I don't understand exactly why this should be though.

From those photos I would guess that your livery mare could be a brown buckskin. I look forward to more photos. You could also compare her to Wagtail's filly to see if you think they look similar.

PMP - I vaguely remember someone mentioning that LP (leopard pattern complex) can sometimes have a fading effect. I have had a search and found this. http://equinetapestry.com/tag/leopard-complex/ Whether this is the answer for your horse I don't know, but it's certainly a possibility. You are right that silver dilutes black pigment. Have you DNA'd your boy?

I hadnt considered the LP gene, I'll look into it thanks.

I had him tested for the grey gene, which was negative, and am hoping to get him tested for the LP gene (to ascertain if he suffers from night blindness) at some point but wasnt going to do the silver gene as £25 seems a lot of money just because i'm curious!

 

[Speedyfluff]

Most ads I see describing a horse as dun are actually buckskin. What do people think of this one? http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/clas...etersfield/heart-and-coat-of-gold-474115.html

I thought he was a lovely golden buckskin at first, but he does have a dorsal stripe (or could it be counter shading?), but no leg barring that I can see.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Apart from the dorsal stripe I can't see any other dun factor markings, so he looks buckskin to me.

 

[Wagtail]

this is a livery mare - is she a dun- sorry not good picture will find better tomorrow

As Faracat says, I think this mare is a brown buckskin like my mare (pictured as a 3 year old here):

 

[Paint Me Proud]

Most ads I see describing a horse as dun are actually buckskin.

I like to play 'spot the buckskin' in the adverts for horses described as dun, often it is nearly all of them!