Farmer's - a question

SusieT said:
Farming as a job is a choice. if you don't like it, get another one.
Even my local farm vets think it is disgraceful-they knew there were red snow warnings. Moaning that it will cost too much money to look after your animals properly or that it's too much like hard work isn't really acceptable(bearing in mind plenty of benefits of farming lifestyle hence why people stick to it). Instead of lording farmers as a special 'breed' of people accept there are bad eggs in all jobs and the ones we constantly see paraded across tv are the ones who aren't good at their job.
I have yet to know a farmer who cares enough about his stock to not squeeze as many into the slatted pen as possible, feed them only as much silage as they need over winter if they are useful (e.g in beef leaving the heifers/youngstock to half starve as an 'economy/practicality').
Many sheep farmers wouldn't call a vet because the cost is not worth it - some without a gun will just leave stock to die. The reason the farmers are upset about losing sheep is the value of the sheep, not normally because they feel attached to the animals. the reason you are all up checking your sheep is because otherwise yourisk losing a lamb which is to risk losing money.
And that's the bitter 'practicality' of it and if animals rights (to shelter, food, water, approriate care) are written off as being over ridden when 'practicalities' are necessary or it is too much hard work or money is involved then we can stop considering ourselves a developed nation.
Offended? Feel I don't know the true facts? Tough. It's easy to get defensive when you know it's true.
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I'm intrigued. It would appear that you see the world through the eyes of one without fear, or doubt, indeed, without any question marks. Your assumption that those who regret the loss of a lamb, consider only the financial aspect, is so wide of descriptive, as to be insulting to those who have a passion for the well being of their charges.

Explain to us, if you will, where your interests and your expertise lie. Explain to us how and why you approach those animals which are in your care. Explain to us why, or perhaps better, how you function.

I may well have missed your posts which have been positive, or informative, or proffered any other thought than that your target is wrong.

Explain to us, if you will, just how your apparently sour and spiteful life promotes any form of encouragement or assistance to others.

Even those with who I, on occasions fall out, offer something positive. They manage to reach beyond vitriol and spite. I'm impressed, you really are a specialist at criticism, but sadly and all so often, so wide of accurate. I may well be wrong, but I suspect that you live a narrow and vengeful existence.

Alec.
 
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I think Ravenwood that we are all just going round in circles here....no one has said farming isn't hard work and especially hill farming has been hard hit by the weather....the snow has caught alot of people out. I live on a semi hill farm in Scotland, if there is such a thing ! been here for 20 years and I've never known weather like this go on for so long so late in the year. I know how hard lambing is and how hard you try to save every life and I certainly wasn't saying for a minute that sheep should have been brought in as I know that's not possible in alot of cases. It will get better though....spring will arrive !
 
Alec....Susie T is blunt but she does have a point with alot of what she says. Losing a lamb is about losing money to a farmer, why else do you think they would care ? I used to struggle a bit with that one myself, I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
 
And as for red tape (I'm on a roll now!) we were fined 3% of our SFP after an RPA cattle inspection because we hadn't sent back the passport of a calf that had died - Arrrgghhhh :mad:
 
bonny said:
I said it was Susie T's point not mine ! Think I said 100's of posts ago that everybodies opinions are coloured by their own experiences, location etc. Good and bad in every walk of life.
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Fair enough, and I will apologise if have picked you up wrongly within this post but in the area where I live farmers tend to farm until they leave their home for the last time. Farmers who certainly would like a profit, do not have an easy life and most of the people who think they would like to live in 'their wellies' would not last a week. I have spoken to many people in the last few days who are at their wits end. They have massive overdrafts to buy stock, this gets paid back to the bank when this years stock are sold, but suddenly a years worth of stock is gone. Maybe your bank will take this into account but many banks won't. What SusieT may find unbelievable is that these guys are not thinking about the bank manager but about the lives that have been lost due to the weather.
Last years hay/haylage stock was crap. Looking at the growth on our fields so far this year it is only going to get worse. We for one will not be selling any of the haylage we cut this year. We usually let half go to the farmer when he cuts it. I imagine I will not be the only one feeding this dominoe effect.
 
bonny said:
Alec....Susie T is blunt but she does have a point with alot of what she says. Losing a lamb is about losing money to a farmer, why else do you think they would care ? I used to struggle a bit with that one myself, I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
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I am so angered at this! Of course it is a business but believe me most farmers (that I know) do care 100% about their stock whether they are profit making or not. FFS last year I put a lamb (Annabelle) in a box in our Bedroom so I could get up and feed it through the night - not because it was worth £40 to me but because I wanted the poor little scrap to live - it didnt :(

Have you any idea how utterly soul destroying it is to see a pile of dead lambs build up? We don't all have dollar signs in our eyes - we do have compassion. I care for my sheep and calves just the same way as I do for my horses and dogs.
 
bonny said:
Alec....Susie T is blunt but she does have a point with alot of what she says. Losing a lamb is about losing money to a farmer, why else do you think they would care ? I used to struggle a bit with that one myself, I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
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Oh good heavens , you posted this while I was replying. Seriously, if you believe this you are delusional. I shall take back my apology if you don't mind (in fact I take it back regardless). Obviously I had not picked you up wrongly in the first place.
 
bonny said:
Alec....Susie T is blunt but she does have a point with alot of what she says. Losing a lamb is about losing money to a farmer, why else do you think they would care ? I used to struggle a bit with that one myself, I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
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No she has no point and has a completely ignorant view and has not read the many valid replies to all her stupid points otherwise she would have stopped her drivel by now.

I am a shepherd so I get paid the same amount regardless of what lives or dies. That does not stop me doing everything I possibly can to make sure everything I can possibly keep living does!

I know that my animals have the best care possible and have good lives before they go for meat. I hate taking them to the abattoir however I do it because then I KNOW they have had a good life from start to finish.

Are you really saying that no one in the world does their job for the love of it? I would do mine for no pay at all, I only need the money to feed, house and clothe myself and my daughter!
 
FfionWinnie said:
No she has no point and has a completely ignorant view and has not read the many valid replies to all her stupid points otherwise she would have stopped her drivel by now.

I am a shepherd so I get paid the same amount regardless of what lives or dies. That does not stop me doing everything I possibly can to make sure everything I can possibly keep living does!

I know that my animals have the best care possible and have good lives before they go for meat. I hate taking them to the abattoir however I do it because then I KNOW they have had a good life from start to finish.

Are you really saying that no one in the world does their job for the love of it? I would do mine for no pay at all, I only need the money to feed, house and clothe myself and my daughter!
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You are doing it as a job, bit different to being a farmer and like I said when I have worked with sheep I did everything in my power to keep them alive I loved lambing time, I did nights, I liked being alone with the ewes and lambs and I hated the deaths....
 
bonny said:
A lot of farmers will give orphaned lambs away as they are not considered worth the hassle of raising.....
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A correction for you, Cade lambs are more often sold than given away. There's a reason for that, firstly, give away any animal and the receiver rarely appreciates the gift, or cares for it, and secondly, with the pressures and the call upon one's waking hours, the spare lambs are a drain upon one's resources, and if others can make a success of them, then that would save the waste of killing them.

Why kill them? Let me explain, it's very rare that a ewe can produce enough milk for 3 lambs. If left with all 3, then she will generally rear 3 second rate lambs. Removing one will mean that her milk supply will make a better job of twins.

When a ewe which has twins, loses one, then one of a set of triplets is generally fostered on to her. That's one way of dealing with the spare lamb. When we have genuine orphans, and it's rare, then I will occasionally take away a single lamb, and give a ewe a set of twins. Twins will carry an identical scent, and with luck that will confuse the ewe into accepting them.

Rearing Cade lambs is a hassle, I agree, but a most enjoyable hassle. They lose all fear of humans, they will invade the house, given the opportunity, and it's the easiest thing to become attached to them. Somewhere I have a pic of my now departed MIL, lying asleep on the lawn, with 5 lambs all lying on the windward side of her, also sleeping!!

Being a shepherd is a passion, for most. There are easier ways of making a living, and for some, being a dole-waller would be more profitable, but it's the passion which keeps most going, even those who need to earn a living! ;)

Alec.
 
Ravenwood said:
I am so angered at this! Of course it is a business but believe me most farmers (that I know) do care 100% about their stock whether they are profit making or not. FFS last year I put a lamb (Annabelle) in a box in our Bedroom so I could get up and feed it through the night - not because it was worth £40 to me but because I wanted the poor little scrap to live - it didnt :(

Have you any idea how utterly soul destroying it is to see a pile of dead lambs build up? We don't all have dollar signs in our eyes - we do have compassion. I care for my sheep and calves just the same way as I do for my horses and dogs.
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Like I keep saying there are good, caring farmers and one's or aren't. I worked at lambing time a few years ago on a farm where orphaned lambs were thrown in an empty barrel and left. I used to come on at nights and try to save them. We all have different experiences.
 
Alec Swan said:
A correction for you, Cade lambs are more often sold than given away. There's a reason for that, firstly, give away any animal and the receiver rarely appreciates the gift, or cares for it, and secondly, with the pressures and the call upon one's waking hours, the spare lambs are a drain upon one's resources, and if others can make a success of them, then that would save the waste of killing them.

Why kill them? Let me explain, it's very rare that a ewe can produce enough milk for 3 lambs. If left with all 3, then she will generally rear 3 second rate lambs. Removing one will mean that her milk supply will make a better job of twins.

When a ewe which has twins, loses one, then one of a set of triplets is generally fostered on to her. That's one way of dealing with the spare lamb. When we have genuine orphans, and it's rare, then I will occasionally take away a single lamb, and give a ewe a set of twins. Twins will carry an identical scent, and with luck that will confuse the ewe into accepting them.

Rearing Cade lambs is a hassle, I agree, but a most enjoyable hassle. They lose all fear of humans, they will invade the house, given the opportunity, and it's the easiest thing to become attached to them. Somewhere I have a pic of my now departed MIL, lying asleep on the lawn, with 5 lambs all lying on the windward side of her, also sleeping!!

Being a shepherd is a passion, for most. There are easier ways of making a living, and for some, being a dole-waller would be more profitable, but it's the passion which keeps most going, even those who need to earn a living! ;)

Alec.
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Alec,don't presume that I don't understand sheep farming.....
 
FfionWinnie said:
No she has no point and has a completely ignorant view and has not read the many valid replies to all her stupid points otherwise she would have stopped her drivel by now.

I am a shepherd so I get paid the same amount regardless of what lives or dies. That does not stop me doing everything I possibly can to make sure everything I can possibly keep living does!

I know that my animals have the best care possible and have good lives before they go for meat. I hate taking them to the abattoir however I do it because then I KNOW they have had a good life from start to finish.

Are you really saying that no one in the world does their job for the love of it? I would do mine for no pay at all, I only need the money to feed, house and clothe myself and my daughter!
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I totally agree. However I don't think the folk, who hide behind their computer screens, with their 'holier than thou' attitudes will ever change therefore I am bailing out of this thread (for the 2nd time). I have a freezer full of pork, all home reared and I can even tell you their favorite treat was chocolate cake whilst they were living. They had a great wee life. They lived outside in a paddock, had a snug wee house, feed on tap, loads of straw to make beds and were checked several times a day, as will the next batch.
I think it's time to ignore the ignorant who fall for the media perception or their own, very limited, experoences..
 
Alec Swan said:
Your thoughts and offerings would lead anyone with any degree of experience to believe that you have done a great deal more reading than you have work, or thought for that matter! :D

Alec.
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bonny said:
Why ?
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Because your offerings are so unbelievable as to be inventions, or fantasies, perhaps.

In short, I don't believe what you say. I believe that your claims to experience are fabricated.

Alec.
 
bonny said:
You are doing it as a job, bit different to being a farmer and like I said when I have worked with sheep I did everything in my power to keep them alive I loved lambing time, I did nights, I liked being alone with the ewes and lambs and I hated the deaths....
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How on earth is it a bit different?? I have my own stock too so I am technically both. I treat both the same and the welfare of the stock is my utmost concern at all times, to the detriment of my own health and welfare at times.

And night lambing is a piece of cake so don't try and lecture me about you knowing what you are talking about. I'm at the sharp end.
 
Alec Swan said:
Because your offerings are so unbelievable as to be inventions, or fantasies, perhaps.

In short, I don't believe what you say. I believe that your claims to experience are fabricated.

Alec.
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That's just plain weird and frankly insulting....what have I said that you don't believe ?
 
TJP said:
I totally agree. However I don't think the folk, who hide behind their computer screens, with their 'holier than thou' attitudes will ever change therefore I am bailing out of this thread (for the 2nd time). I have a freezer full of pork, all home reared and I can even tell you their favorite treat was chocolate cake whilst they were living. They had a great wee life. They lived outside in a paddock, had a snug wee house, feed on tap, loads of straw to make beds and were checked several times a day, as will the next batch.
I think it's time to ignore the ignorant who fall for the media perception or their own, very limited, experoences..
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With you there TJP - I have a lamb in the freezer that wasn't fit for market and half an outdoor reared, pedigree, champion show stock Tamworth pig as well (with slabs of bacon like gammon) - just need to buy vegetables ;) and no way on earth would you get that sort of quality meat from Tescoes!
 
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Tame lambs - we lambed about 70 ewes early and found it really hard to find some - they were getting incredible prices at market. Most farmers are happy to keep tame lambs and pass them onto other farmers. They are labour intensive but profitable too, so for those of you saying farming is just money but on the other hand saying tame lames are dumped - it doesn't add up.
 
Ravenwood. The pork/gammon etc we have is fab but I doubt the folk who are complaining about the farmers would pay enough for me to make a profit.
 
TJP said:
Ravenwood. The pork/gammon etc we have is fab but I doubt the folk who are complaining about the farmers would pay enough for me to make a profit.
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Pig farming is absolutely dire - even worse than sheep and its awful for them. What with the EU directive of farrowing pens, all the EU countries that have signed up to it are shooting their sows and therefore there is no export market for our pigs here. Pigs are selling for less at market than what you would normally pay for weanlings - I know my friends have ended up bidding on their own pigs to take them home (luckily the auctioneer could see what was happening) coupled with the extortionate price of food at £230/tonne it really is dire for them. Bascially farming of all livestock is in crisis :(
 
SusieT said:
Farming as a job is a choice. if you don't like it, get another one.
Even my local farm vets think it is disgraceful-they knew there were red snow warnings. Moaning that it will cost too much money to look after your animals properly or that it's too much like hard work isn't really acceptable(bearing in mind plenty of benefits of farming lifestyle hence why people stick to it). Instead of lording farmers as a special 'breed' of people accept there are bad eggs in all jobs and the ones we constantly see paraded across tv are the ones who aren't good at their job.
I have yet to know a farmer who cares enough about his stock to not squeeze as many into the slatted pen as possible, feed them only as much silage as they need over winter if they are useful (e.g in beef leaving the heifers/youngstock to half starve as an 'economy/practicality').
Many sheep farmers wouldn't call a vet because the cost is not worth it - some without a gun will just leave stock to die. The reason the farmers are upset about losing sheep is the value of the sheep, not normally because they feel attached to the animals. the reason you are all up checking your sheep is because otherwise yourisk losing a lamb which is to risk losing money.
And that's the bitter 'practicality' of it and if animals rights (to shelter, food, water, approriate care) are written off as being over ridden when 'practicalities' are necessary or it is too much hard work or money is involved then we can stop considering ourselves a developed nation.
Offended? Feel I don't know the true facts? Tough. It's easy to get defensive when you know it's true.
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Are you actually serious?

Down on planet earth, in the real world, we have 5 bullocks to a pen in the slatted shed, on rubber covered slats, and four each in the dry shed pens. Silage is tipped into them 4 times a day. Uneaten silage is bagged and given to the horses. The silage we have is crap as it was taken up the the non summer that was summer 2012, so meal is given on top of this. As well as copper in drinkers, and mineral licks. They have room to lie down and puck eachother. cattle don't thrive without this, and lyin areas are important.
Farmers don't care? If only I had the video of me and my Dad cleaning drinkers from last weekend. Every bullock in the pens came up to us for a lick and chew, and the old puck (although I'm trying to get my dad to stop teaching them to that. Being in a field of cattle and having them all come up for a puck against your fist is confusing for those not used to them as the Teagasc inspectors can tell you! Also my father is not getting any younger, and they'll knock him over some day. He of course thinks this is hilarious, and every year (we buy weanlings and sell them as finishers) takes on a few "To leyad from be de lug" (Lead from the ear). These are mart cattle, not haltered reared purebreds. Obviously a cruel and uncaring profit chasing farmer.) -our overalls were sloppy with lick! So they were obviously terrorised victims of animal cruelty afraid to approach their abusers.
Starving a heifer or weanling is utter *****. As anyone with any dealings with livestock will know (including equidae) starving a growing youngster stunts growth and ultimately profitability. I have never seen this happen and I have been around cattle and farming all my life.

As for the profit hungry, just get another job and quit whinging version of imaginary farming you seem to have developed in your head, our farm has been unprofitable all my life. It made it's first profit last year (beef prises rose hugely last year) in 29 years to the tune of €511. Only the high life for us. This farm is on bad land. the area we live on has reared the last 5 gens of my fathers family, that we know of. (A lot of Irish records were ost in the fires of the war of independance). In Ireland, a field changes hands (outside a family) on average every 555 years. To put that in context, in france it is every 70 years, or once a generation. Farming for us is not a job you get into, it is in your blood, your soul. On our farm, rocks are bursting the soil, and we can't afford to re-seed reedy meadows. EU regs mean we have to spread slurry on the same fields every year, causing a lack of aeration in the soil and compaction and demineralising of the soil. We also have 5 famine houses, a famine road, a mass path. two fairy forts, and a full fiachra (stone age dwellling and ancient eating place). Most of the land around us is planted.
Would you slog it out on our farm? I know thw answer to that.

I will farm when my father can't farm anymore. It's not a conscious choice. Of I don't the land will turn to scrub or forestry. I know the story of every hill, bump, ditch, hedge and stream. I know what lives in this hedge, in this bush and that ditch. I know about a millionth as much as my father does. Would you stand people who have never stood on your land before coming in to tell you how to run it, whe to do this and that? Inspite of having to cut hedges and put birds out of a home. And turn meadows into quagmires because some pen pusher in Brussles decided you had to?

You know so so so very little of what farming entails. No I don't cosset and spend hours brushing and rugging and spoiling my animals. They are just that and I respect them as such. They want for NOTHING, and a stick is never raised on our farm in anger against an animal (to quote my father "Never raise a schtick to a beascht".).

You have absolutely no idea of the blood, sweat, and occasionally tears onvolved in farming. It is not a series of business transactions. It is something much, much more than that. You have absolutely no appreciation or knowledge of the reality of this.

Sorry this is long, and ranty and incoherent. I hope it makes some sort of sense. I just cannot believe the sheer blinding ignorance what I read there.
 
TJP said:
Ravenwood. The pork/gammon etc we have is fab but I doubt the folk who are complaining about the farmers would pay enough for me to make a profit.
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We don't farm pigs as such, but I had a little experiment, I wanted some nice pork for the freezer, so we bought some old spot and some saddleback weaners, we bought them cheap, friends have an old fashioned grocer's shop, so we had constant supply of veg and fruit to feed our half a dozen pigs alongside their pellets; we gave them a paddock to turn over and built them a little house.
I looked after them, fed them, watered them and then I took them to the abattoir 15 miles away, I picked them up butchered and boxed and I delivered them door to door to people who ordered the meat from us. I made £5 per pig of profit :( :o
I suppose we are quite lucky that we farm sheep and some cattle, there is a bit more than £5 in it, but not much.
 
I tried to leave but this thread just keeps sucking me back in!

bonny said:
Alec,don't presume that I don't understand sheep farming.....
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bonny said:
Ok, I am completely clueless.....never seen an old farmer in my life !!
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Just found this on the BBC website:
58% of UK farms in hands of over-55s
And 3% held by under-35s, EU figures show
Average age of UK farm holders is 58
2004 research suggested 7% of farmers wished to retire but expected to be unable to do so
Half cited financial reasons and a third said they enjoyed the life
Of over-65s not planning to retire, most said it was because they did not want to

bonny said:
I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
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That, for me, is the difference between people who understand livestock farming and those who don't.
The majority of animals bred on farms are bred to be raised for meat. If we didn't eat them then they wouldn't be bred in the first place!
We wouldn't just breed lambs, pigs, beef calves, so we could watch them skip round fields for the rest of their lives, there simply isn't the space.

We have just had out first lambs born this morning. They are cute and doing well but ultimately they will become roast lamb or something similar, that is their purpose. I am proud of the fact that we are breeding good stock to the highest welfare standards to become quality meat for someone.
 
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