Farmer's - a question

[jrp204]

We had 3 sows who had 27 piglets between them last summer, we reared the piglets and sold them as fatteners for £120 each, profit? Nice idea! You have to buy in all the feed and the price of feed has gone through the roof. We sold our sows in feb. Our 3000 free range hens went in January and won't be replaced. Feed is £320/t, 3 t/wk so that's £960 week in feed. We worked out that if we had kept the hens till the end of April when they should have gone we would have lost 2k and not have paid ourselves. So, now we are down to our pedigree sheep, a bit of barley for malting and maize for a neighbour. we both work off the farm too. Maybe next year we will make a profit and possibly get a holiday but I won't hold my breathe.
I agree it is our choice, but it doesn't make it easy.

 

[justabob]

A lot of farmers will give orphaned lambs away as they are not considered worth the hassle of raising.....

They dont give them away here, orphaned lambs are put onto ewes that have lost their lambs, making the ewe productive and preventing mastitis. If the orphaned lambs are too old to do this, they are bottle fed and put onto pellets as soon as they are old enough to eat them.

 

[EPRider]

Lambing is so disastrous round here from the Smallenburg virus that there are no orphan lambs to be had. Approx a third of all lambs are lost to this.

 

[Bertieb123]

I'm intrigued. It would appear that you see the world through the eyes of one without fear, or doubt, indeed, without any question marks. Your assumption that those who regret the loss of a lamb, consider only the financial aspect, is so wide of descriptive, as to be insulting to those who have a passion for the well being of their charges.

Explain to us, if you will, where your interests and your expertise lie. Explain to us how and why you approach those animals which are in your care. Explain to us why, or perhaps better, how you function.

I may well have missed your posts which have been positive, or informative, or proffered any other thought than that your target is wrong.

Explain to us, if you will, just how your apparently sour and spiteful life promotes any form of encouragement or assistance to others.

Even those with who I, on occasions fall out, offer something positive. They manage to reach beyond vitriol and spite. I'm impressed, you really are a specialist at criticism, but sadly and all so often, so wide of accurate. I may well be wrong, but I suspect that you live a narrow and vengeful existence.

Alec.

OH HOW I AGREE ALEC!

 

[cptrayes]

I'm intrigued. It would appear that you see the world through the eyes of one without fear, or doubt, indeed, without any question marks. Your assumption that those who regret the loss of a lamb, consider only the financial aspect, is so wide of descriptive, as to be insulting to those who have a passion for the well being of their charges.

Explain to us, if you will, where your interests and your expertise lie. Explain to us how and why you approach those animals which are in your care. Explain to us why, or perhaps better, how you function.

I may well have missed your posts which have been positive, or informative, or proffered any other thought than that your target is wrong.

Explain to us, if you will, just how your apparently sour and spiteful life promotes any form of encouragement or assistance to others.

Even those with who I, on occasions fall out, offer something positive. They manage to reach beyond vitriol and spite. I'm impressed, you really are a specialist at criticism, but sadly and all so often, so wide of accurate. I may well be wrong, but I suspect that you live a narrow and vengeful existence.

Alec.

Is there really any valid excuse for this kind of diatribe against another forum member expressing an opinion?


I dislike a lot of what Susiet says, and the way that she says it, on all sorts of threads.

But this is no way for a civilised person to respond .

 

[cptrayes]

I will respect the love that dairy farmers have for their cows when they stop removing their calves at two weeks old and stop shooting the male ones.

Yes, I KNOW that's how we produce milk that people can afford to drink, but how people can say that they love their animals and at the same time close their eyes to what is being done to them, I do not know. If the public understood how milk was produced, many of them would refuse to buy it, and children would refuse to drink it.

Likewise, sheep with footrot limping in fields is a fact of sheep farming life. It is totally uneconomic to stop it happening completely. Yet if a horse owner left a horse limping like a sheep with foot rot, they would be prosecuted. How is it any different from a welfare point of view?

This is not an attack on farmers, only a comment about those farmers who refuse to accept that less than desireable things happen to their animals in the name of production of meat and milk that is affordable for people to buy in quantity instead of as a luxury.


I'm at a complete loss to understand why people on here breeding tiny numbers of animals actually expect to make a profit out of it. No other business would succeed with such minimal volumes of product to sell.

 

[YorksG]

What would you like to happen to the bull calves? Provided they are shot cleanly, what exactly is the problem with this?

 

[Maesfen]

Apologies if this has already been posted but perhaps food for thought for those that doubt?

Weekly e-newsletter
28th March 2013


Backing our farmers

Sheep farmers generally, and hill farmers in particular, were having a hard time of it even before the dreadful weather of the last few weeks.

Last summer's wet weather increased feed prices and lowered quality and then a sudden increase in imports of New Zealand lamb coincided with much reduced demand for lamb in traditional European markets which have been hit hard by the Euro-zone financial crisis.

In the first quarter of the year farm-gate prices for whole lambs dropped by 25% and legs of lamb by 17% which means farmers are losing £29 for every lamb they sell. While some retailers have said they will increase the prices they are paying, the price for lamb in the supermarkets has fallen only by 2%.

Now many farmers across the whole country have lost ewes and lambs to the unseasonal snow. Thousands of sheep are reported dead in snow drifts and some farmers who are operating outdoor lambing systems are reporting high lamb mortality owing to the freezing temperatures.

All this comes against a background of a long term decline in the number of hill farmers who are of an ever increasing average age as fewer and fewer people pursue a career in this most rugged and financially unrewarding sector.

This is a good moment to reflect on the importance of livestock farming in the uplands not just because of the food hill farmers put on our plates but also because they are the glue that holds the society and environment of many of the most loved parts of our countryside together.

Without sheep, and the farmers who look after them, the much-loved fells of Cumbria, peaks of Derbyshire, mountains of Wales and a hundred other landscapes would look entirely different.

Without farmers the villages and market towns of those rural areas would have had no purpose and without them some of the proudest communities in the country would simply not exist.

The Royal Agricultural Benevolent Fund (RABI), The Prince's Countryside Fund, the Farm Crisis Network and many other charities are all doing vital work assisting farmers and the welfare of their stock. We should all do what we can to support them.

Barney White-Spunner
Executive Chairman

 

[jrp204]

If more people ate veal it would provide an outlet for many bull calves. I bet there isn't a dairy farmer who wants to shoot a calf, it goes totally against the grain.

 

[silu]

Well I haven't posted on this topic for a while as I've been doing something a little more practical in trying to help as best I can.NOT sitting at a computer slagging farmers off. Been along the road helping our neighbouring farmer ALL NIGHT.
As the weather had improved a little yesterday he'd put the oldest lambs out. About 6 pm the weather changed dramatically with heavy snow falling so we had to get all the ewes and lambs back under cover again.
I too don't believe even 1/2 of what some on here have written about so called experience...load of ****.
After something to eat I am going to drive about an 8 hour round trip with a horsebox to get it filled with fodder as there is nothing available locally.
To all of you who profess to care so much and think farmers don't, get of your high horses and DO something to help.

 

[justabob]

What would you like to happen to the bull calves? Provided they are shot cleanly, what exactly is the problem with this?

Sadly there is no other option for bull calves born to Dairy cows and Dairy bulls as it is not cost effective to run them on for beef. The alternative is to run a beef bred bull with cows resulting in a calf that can be fattened for meat. Understandably farmers will want replacement heiffers for the milk herd so unfortunately there is always going to be wastage of bull calves.

 

[RunToEarth]

I will respect the love that dairy farmers have for their cows when they stop removing their calves at two weeks old and stop shooting the male ones.

Yes, I KNOW that's how we produce milk that people can afford to drink, but how people can say that they love their animals and at the same time close their eyes to what is being done to them, I do not know. If the public understood how milk was produced, many of them would refuse to buy it, and children would refuse to drink it.

Likewise, sheep with footrot limping in fields is a fact of sheep farming life. It is totally uneconomic to stop it happening completely. Yet if a horse owner left a horse limping like a sheep with foot rot, they would be prosecuted. How is it any different from a welfare point of view?

This is not an attack on farmers, only a comment about those farmers who refuse to accept that less than desireable things happen to their animals in the name of production of meat and milk that is affordable for people to buy in quantity instead of as a luxury.


I'm at a complete loss to understand why people on here breeding tiny numbers of animals actually expect to make a profit out of it. No other business would succeed with such minimal volumes of product to sell.

I'm saddened to read this, I didn't realise such a large proportion of the population had such little respect for the industry, perhaps through lack of understanding it, possibly through ignorance.

What exactly would you propose we do will our bull calves?

there are a whole bunch of reasons farmers continue farming, I dont think large profit margins have factored high on the list for many years. Ive watched my family go through every emotion possible for our herd in the few years I've been alive, to read that stockmen have no love for their animals is offensive to say the least.

I'm with Alec regarding Suzie's comments, I find her opinions so incredibly ill informed I couldn't muster a response.

 

[Bertieb123]

Well I haven't posted on this topic for a while as I've been doing something a little more practical in trying to help as best I can.NOT sitting at a computer slagging farmers off. Been along the road helping our neighbouring farmer ALL NIGHT.
As the weather had improved a little yesterday he'd put the oldest lambs out. About 6 pm the weather changed dramatically with heavy snow falling so we had to get all the ewes and lambs back under cover again.
I too don't believe even 1/2 of what some on here have written about so called experience...load of ****.
After something to eat I am going to drive about an 8 hour round trip with a horsebox to get it filled with fodder as there is nothing available locally.
To all of you who profess to care so much and think farmers don't, get of your high horses and DO something to help.

Thank god for people like you! SOME of us are on the same wavelength here, some of us pull together and that is the way it should be, But I am afraid some people these day's just want to point out all the bad and wrong things they see from a distance and not get involved except to write many inaccuracies and total rubbish from afar. Hope things get better for all of you soon this is not an ideal time at all, keep up the good work, and keep your head held high

 

[FfionWinnie]

Likewise, sheep with footrot limping in fields is a fact of sheep farming life. It is totally uneconomic to stop it happening completely. Yet if a horse owner left a horse limping like a sheep with foot rot, they would be prosecuted. How is it any different from a welfare point of view?

Well that's not true actually, having foot rot is uneconomical as is having to treat it, the best situation is to cull it out of the flock so the remainder are the ones which are resistant to it.

Sheep can go dramatically lame with scald which is a fairly minor irritation between the cleats usually and even if you treat them the first sign of symptoms, they won't be cured over night. And then another one will limp. That can give the impression the sheep are always lame however you don't know what the farmer has done meanwhile to effect a cure.

Some breeds are more prone to foot problems than others as well. I don't know when I last touched a foot in my flock (although I do cull for it). Usually get scald in some of the lambs in the summer and foot bath them which cures them within a week.

Lame sheep aren't necessarily a welfare problem, same as lame horses aren't necessarily a welfare problem, if the situation is in hand (vet/farmer/farrier).

I don't know any dairy farmers who shoot bull calves these days. And any who have had to do it in the past through financial pressures, did not like doing it.

A lot of people bull their cows with a beef animal and all the calves can go as meat or breeding cows, and the best of the herd are bulled with sexed semen to breed replacement heifers, meaning no dairy bull calves are born (obviously sexed semen is not 100% guaranteed so the odd one may be).

 

[Alec Swan]

I will respect the love that dairy farmers have for their cows when they stop removing their calves at two weeks old and stop shooting the male ones.

I accept that it's a heartless act to slaughter dairy bull calves, and both the knackerman and the producer hate it. Not just for financial reasons, but because it's a shameful waste of life. There are those who run Friesian calves around, but there's a huge input to get them to be fit for slaughter, and most only do it because incineration is obscene. I've held and shot dozens of Guernsey calves. Beautiful calves which have nothing wrong with them, except that there is no trade in this country for veal, and the fuss made by the welfare lot is such that exporting them to the Continent isn't worth the grief.

Those who are opposed to live export seem unable to accept the fact that they can't have it both-ways.

The other point is that with most milk producers being paid at virtually cost price, by the buyers, because cheaper alternatives are available on the Continent, so every week ever more dairy farmers are going out of business, never to re-start.

....... If the public understood how milk was produced, many of them would refuse to buy it, and children would refuse to drink it.

That I doubt, but if it happened, presumably you'd be happy to see the end of the milk by-products, would you? No cheese, no cream and no yoghurt, apart from what we import. If you are unhappy with our animal welfare standards, I can assure you that many of those who queue up to supply us have a care ethos which would turn your stomach.

Likewise, sheep with footrot limping in fields is a fact of sheep farming life. It is totally uneconomic to stop it happening completely. Yet if a horse owner left a horse limping like a sheep with foot rot, they would be prosecuted. How is it any different from a welfare point of view?

Since I stopped the "Routine" trimming of sheep's feet, the incidents of footrot have declined drastically. I run round 300 lambs every year, and from having incidents of rotten feet, in 20-30% of the flock, I now have 2-3 feet to deal with, per year. Eradication is, as you say, near impossible, but by only dealing with the affected, so the incidents decline. It's actually a case of less being more, and no, I can't explain it!

I'm at a complete loss to understand why people on here breeding tiny numbers of animals actually expect to make a profit out of it. No other business would succeed with such minimal volumes of product to sell.

They do it for the love of it. I understand that from a fiscal consideration it makes little sense, but it's the pride that they take in their animals, the time that they take to show them to the interested, the pleasure that's to be gained, as you will surely understand, when you watch a foal grow or develop.

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Are you actually serious?

Down on planet earth, in the real world, we have 5 bullocks to a pen in the slatted shed, on rubber covered slats, and four each in the dry shed pens. Silage is tipped into them 4 times a day. Uneaten silage is bagged and given to the horses. The silage we have is crap as it was taken up the the non summer that was summer 2012, so meal is given on top of this. As well as copper in drinkers, and mineral licks. They have room to lie down and puck eachother. cattle don't thrive without this, and lyin areas are important.
Farmers don't care? If only I had the video of me and my Dad cleaning drinkers from last weekend. Every bullock in the pens came up to us for a lick and chew, and the old puck (although I'm trying to get my dad to stop teaching them to that. Being in a field of cattle and having them all come up for a puck against your fist is confusing for those not used to them as the Teagasc inspectors can tell you! Also my father is not getting any younger, and they'll knock him over some day. He of course thinks this is hilarious, and every year (we buy weanlings and sell them as finishers) takes on a few "To leyad from be de lug" (Lead from the ear). These are mart cattle, not haltered reared purebreds. Obviously a cruel and uncaring profit chasing farmer.) -our overalls were sloppy with lick! So they were obviously terrorised victims of animal cruelty afraid to approach their abusers.
Starving a heifer or weanling is utter *****. As anyone with any dealings with livestock will know (including equidae) starving a growing youngster stunts growth and ultimately profitability. I have never seen this happen and I have been around cattle and farming all my life.

As for the profit hungry, just get another job and quit whinging version of imaginary farming you seem to have developed in your head, our farm has been unprofitable all my life. It made it's first profit last year (beef prises rose hugely last year) in 29 years to the tune of €511. Only the high life for us. This farm is on bad land. the area we live on has reared the last 5 gens of my fathers family, that we know of. (A lot of Irish records were ost in the fires of the war of independance). In Ireland, a field changes hands (outside a family) on average every 555 years. To put that in context, in france it is every 70 years, or once a generation. Farming for us is not a job you get into, it is in your blood, your soul. On our farm, rocks are bursting the soil, and we can't afford to re-seed reedy meadows. EU regs mean we have to spread slurry on the same fields every year, causing a lack of aeration in the soil and compaction and demineralising of the soil. We also have 5 famine houses, a famine road, a mass path. two fairy forts, and a full fiachra (stone age dwellling and ancient eating place). Most of the land around us is planted.
Would you slog it out on our farm? I know thw answer to that.

I will farm when my father can't farm anymore. It's not a conscious choice. Of I don't the land will turn to scrub or forestry. I know the story of every hill, bump, ditch, hedge and stream. I know what lives in this hedge, in this bush and that ditch. I know about a millionth as much as my father does. Would you stand people who have never stood on your land before coming in to tell you how to run it, whe to do this and that? Inspite of having to cut hedges and put birds out of a home. And turn meadows into quagmires because some pen pusher in Brussles decided you had to?

You know so so so very little of what farming entails. No I don't cosset and spend hours brushing and rugging and spoiling my animals. They are just that and I respect them as such. They want for NOTHING, and a stick is never raised on our farm in anger against an animal (to quote my father "Never raise a schtick to a beascht".).

You have absolutely no idea of the blood, sweat, and occasionally tears onvolved in farming. It is not a series of business transactions. It is something much, much more than that. You have absolutely no appreciation or knowledge of the reality of this.

Sorry this is long, and ranty and incoherent. I hope it makes some sort of sense. I just cannot believe the sheer blinding ignorance what I read there.

Brilliant, brilliant post from another person actually at the coal face rather than boking out 'facts' they read on the internet, see on the telly or hear second or third hand.

The land on which we live (we are planters though ) sounds very similar. High, marshy, reedy, rocky, and what isn't covered in rubbish grass is covered in alien evergreens, many of which are currently diseased, the ground beneath is essentially dead.
Even the 'potatoes' which bear the brand name of this picturesque area are grown elsewhere, driven in, bagged here and sent away again - there is no way you could grow spuds here.
It's hardly lush green meadows where the farmers stroll around, periodically counting wads of cash which they produce from each welly boot, and cackling at their healthy profits.

Speaking of cows, I spent quite a while hearing about the popularity of cow mattresses and cow pillows yesterday, made sustainably from recycled tyres.

 

[amandap]

Since I stopped the "Routine" trimming of sheep's feet, the incidents of footrot have declined drastically. I run round 300 lambs every year, and from having incidents of rotten feet, in 20-30% of the flock, I now have 2-3 feet to deal with, per year. Eradication is, as you say, near impossible, but by only dealing with the affected, so the incidents decline. It's actually a case of less being more, and no, I can't explain it!

Alec.

This is extremely interesting.

I am wishing the weather turns soon but it doesn't bode well I'm afraid.

 

[cptrayes]

To the many people who have wilfully misread my last post, I will repeat. My issue is not with any of the practices which are common to good farmers. My issue is with those farmers who refuse to acknowledge that farm animals, compared with other domesticated animals, are kept in a way that would be considered a welfare issue if it were not farming.

What would the equine world say if foals were routinely taken off their mothers at two weeks old so that the mares could go out and compete, for example?

I know the two do not compare, but to deny that there are any animal welfare issues among even well cared for farm animals is patently two faced. There are. They are tolerated so that the public can eat cheap meat and drink cheap milk. I eat meat and drink milk. I don't like the way milk is made, with cows now bred with udders so huge that they drag on the ground, if they are ever allowed out. I would prefer a more humane source as my daily osteoporosis preventative, but can anyone tell me where I can buy skimmed milk from a cow still nursing its calf, please?

Regarding the price of milk, can anyone explain to me what happened to the Milk Marketing Board? My impression is that pricing was controlled by the MMB as a monopoly supplier who had the whip hand over the supermarkets. Who gave up that monopoly - was it bigger greedy dairy farmers who wanted to negotiate their own price direct? If so, does the industry have no-one to blame but themselves for the situation they now find themselves in?

I do know about the vicious practices that the supermarkets operate. A friend of mine had organic lambs turned away with less than 24 hours notice by a big one, and had to take a loss selling them as non-organic. It's not right, but only acting in concert instead of competitively will counter the strength of the supermarkets. Meanwhile, I refuse to buy any pork that is not bred in Britain, because our welfare standards have been adoopted earlier than other EU countries and our farmers are at a disadvantage because of it.

The balance between animal welfare and cost is one that should, in a civilised society, be able to be discussed without resort to some of the abuse that's flying around on this thread.

 

[amandap]

The balance between animal welfare and cost is one that should, in a civilised society, be able to be discussed without resort to some of the abuse that's flying around on this thread.

I do agree but this is a very challenging and emotional time for many farmers and isn't perhaps the best timing to broaden the discussion.

 

[gadetra]

Brilliant, brilliant post from another person actually at the coal face rather than boking out 'facts' they read on the internet, see on the telly or hear second or third hand.

The land on which we live (we are planters though ) sounds very similar. High, marshy, reedy, rocky, and what isn't covered in rubbish grass is covered in alien evergreens, many of which are currently diseased, the ground beneath is essentially dead.
Even the 'potatoes' which bear the brand name of this picturesque area are grown elsewhere, driven in, bagged here and sent away again - there is no way you could grow spuds here.
It's hardly lush green meadows where the farmers stroll around, periodically counting wads of cash which they produce from each welly boot, and cackling at their healthy profits.

Speaking of cows, I spent quite a while hearing about the popularity of cow mattresses and cow pillows yesterday, made sustainably from recycled tyres.

Ah the old marketing. As long as it has a hale and hearty pic on the bag no one cares about where they actually come from it,s hilarious!

There was actually an excellent documentary on RTE a while back called The Homeplace about farming now, growing up to farm and the idea of the homeplace and what it means. You might get it on RTE player.
Some sobering facts too. 78% of farms in Ireland have a working income ov £4,000 or less per year. The top 2% make £40,000 (euro, I can't find the euro sign) or more per year. Form an orderly queue now people before you jump into our wellies now!
The rubber is a great job. They're much happier on it, we have it down a good few years. Neighbours are taking the plunge on that one too!

 

[cptrayes]

I'm sorry for people who have farming in the blood and farmland in the family heritage going back centuries, but it is perfectly clear from many of the posts on this thread that small farms are simply not economically viable. As with many, many industries, (coal mining being a good example where son followed father down the pit), life has moved on. Like all industries over time, cost effectiveness can only be achieved by amalgamation to make bigger production units. It's a crying shame for those who want to continue that way of life, but making a decent living from a small farm is currently simply not possible and probably won't be in the foreseeable future.

There is no point in quoting statistics saying that the average hill sheep farmer earns 8k a year, for example (which it was the last time I read about it). There are only two answers. Live on that and whatever benefits you can claim, or give it up. To use low incomes as a reason for failing to be able to care properly for animals, as some on this thread have, just does not make sense. It's like someone on benefits saying they can't afford the vets fees to treat an unexpectedly sick dog. Our answer would always be "then don't keep a dog".

I think it's a shame that small farms must disappear, because I suspect that some of the highest welfare standards are actually on the tiniest farms, where each animal is known as an individual.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

I think it's a shame that small farms must disappear, ........

"MUST"? Who says? Not wilful misreading, your words.

Alec.

 

[gadetra]

To the many people who have wilfully misread my last post, I will repeat. My issue is not with any of the practices which are common to good farmers. My issue is with those farmers who refuse to acknowledge that farm animals, compared with other domesticated animals, are kept in a way that would be considered a welfare issue if it were not farming.

What would the equine world say if foals were routinely taken off their mothers at two weeks old so that the mares could go out and compete, for example?

I know the two do not compare, but to deny that there are any animal welfare issues among even well cared for farm animals is patently two faced. There are. They are tolerated so that the public can eat cheap meat and drink cheap milk. I eat meat and drink milk. I don't like the way milk is made, with cows now bred with udders so huge that they drag on the ground, if they are ever allowed out. I would prefer a more humane source as my daily osteoporosis preventative, but can anyone tell me where I can buy skimmed milk from a cow still nursing its calf, please?

Regarding the price of milk, can anyone explain to me what happened to the Milk Marketing Board? My impression is that pricing was controlled by the MMB as a monopoly supplier who had the whip hand over the supermarkets. Who gave up that monopoly - was it bigger greedy dairy farmers who wanted to negotiate their own price direct? If so, does the industry have no-one to blame but themselves for the situation they now find themselves in?

I do know about the vicious practices that the supermarkets operate. A friend of mine had organic lambs turned away with less than 24 hours notice by a big one, and had to take a loss selling them as non-organic. It's not right, but only acting in concert instead of competitively will counter the strength of the supermarkets. Meanwhile, I refuse to buy any pork that is not bred in Britain, because our welfare standards have been adoopted earlier than other EU countries and our farmers are at a disadvantage because of it.

The balance between animal welfare and cost is one that should, in a civilised society, be able to be discussed without resort to some of the abuse that's flying around on this thread.

Ok. I think there are supplements you can take to guard against oesteoporosis-calium so you don't have to go through the horror of drinking farmed milk. Or chocolate. Or cheese etc.
On a serious note.Have you ever been in a milking parlour? There is no room for calves amongst all that euipment. The chance of tehm falling into the pit and killing themselves would also be high.
So why not have the cows out with them for a few hours a day I hear you say? Have you tried to separate cows from calves 3 times a day? And make the operation profitable enough with the drop in milk yields? I'm afraid this is fanciful and wishful thinking in the real world. Possible only if you can afford to lose wast amounts of money and time.
No one like the waste of dairy bull calves. It is a neccesary evil of the industry. Unless people develop a taste for rose veal (and IMHO they should) it will continue to happen.
You can never get to the end of a Holstein bullock to feed. They are big rangy cattle and always kill out badly. We have had a few camels over the years. You simply can't feed them up enough to make them viable for beef production, no more than you can turn all the unwanted, indiscriminately bred foals into Gold Cup winners. It is not physically possible. Brittish freisans and some franch breds kill out slightly better than the holsteiners, but still not enough to make them viable.
I have never seen cows with udders draggin along the ground?
Milk prices are set my a cartell of creameries and supermarkets. farmers get 17c a litre over here to produce milk. It is €1.59 for a litre of milk in the shop. I suggest you direct your indignation in their direction, not at the farmers.
Neighbours of ours have been burned by Tesco with their lamb. Also a lot of veg producers. One sold his carrots before the season to tesco for x price, set grew and harvested them to tesco, tesco them told him they were doing a half price promotion and only paid him half the agreed amount. This goes on every day of the week. The IFA (Irish Farmer Association) has a number of cases against tesco and other supermarkets for this and reason.

I agree with you about pork. I do the same thing.

I find your comment about small farms insulting, uninformed, and frankly ignorant. I am shocked you can take up such an attitude without having any knowledge of the realities of the thing. I am quite upset at your attitude on that particular issue I have to say.
Also no one has used a small income as an excuse for poor animal welfare? I have no idea wher you got that from. No matter how broke the farmer the animals are the last to suffer I can guarantee you that.

 

[EPRider]

The milk marketing board and all the other boards that worked. The government in their wisdom listened to the supermarkets and large distributors and declared them to be a monopoly and forced them to disband. The first real death knell for dairy farming in this country.

 

[cptrayes]

Because they are, as is clear from this thread, economically completely unviable even with EU susidies. It may have taken a once every 10-12 year snowfall to emphasize just how unviable they are, but how many educated children will accept following their fathers and mothers into penury to carry on farming, even if the land has been in the family for centuries? The farms around me are being sold to hobby farmers as the owners die off and the children don't want to farm. The land is being sold separately and usually amalgamated into other existing farms to create bigger operations which are more cost effective. It seems to me inevitable that the production of meat and milk will continue to be done in smaller and smaller numbers of bigger and bigger units.

The other thing that seems to be being completely ignored is that we don't need this food. Meat is a luxury, not a necessity. No-one has a God given right to make a profit from it. Sheep are more effectively farmed on the plains in larger numbers. Hill farming is inefficient and ineffective. It keeps the countryside looking as we have come to expect it, but the world would not end if sheep farming did, it would just look different. Not worse, not better, just different.


Apologies for the rants I have nothing else to do. The Council have failed to clear the drifts out of my road. I cannot ride out, and getting out by vehicle is over some bumpy fields, though we will make the effort for a curry later is only to save our sanity.

 

[cptrayes]

Ok. I think there are supplements you can take to guard against oesteoporosis-calium so you don't have to go through the horror of drinking farmed milk.

Supplements are not as readily bio available and risk kidney stones, which I would not wish on the worst farmer in the world.

On a serious note.Have you ever been in a milking parlour? There is no room for calves amongst all that euipment. The chance of tehm falling into the pit and killing themselves would also be high.

Quite. We keep cows in such a way as to make it impossible for them to keep their calves with them and be milked. This is an economic choice.

I find your comment about small farms insulting, uninformed, and frankly ignorant.

Which bits have insulted you?
Which are uninformed and ignorant?
Most of my friends are small farmers. I do not feel uninformed about their lives, but please correct anything wrong that I have said.

Also no one has used a small income as an excuse for poor animal welfare? I have no idea wher you got that from. No matter how broke the farmer the animals are the last to suffer I can guarantee you that.

It's earlier on in the thread. It was used as a reason why some farmers did not have feed on standby in case the forecast snow was more disruptive than expected.

 

[MurphysMinder]

No one like the waste of dairy bull calves. It is a neccesary evil of the industry. Unless people develop a taste for rose veal (and IMHO they should) it will continue to happen.

I would be interested to know how many people on here are aware of rose veal. I agree with you if more people ate it then there would be a use for these bull calves.


Neighbours of ours have been burned by Tesco with their lamb. Also a lot of veg producers. One sold his carrots before the season to tesco for x price, set grew and harvested them to tesco, tesco them told him they were doing a half price promotion and only paid him half the agreed amount. This goes on every day of the week. The IFA (Irish Farmer Association) has a number of cases against tesco and other supermarkets for this and reason.

Exactly the same happened to a local farmer and cheese producer. Tesco's gave them a contract for all their cheese, and once they had them well and truly tied in they started putting the screws on price wise. End result was they gave up the cheese making, and a delicious product was lost.

 

[amandap]

Sheep are more effectively farmed on the plains in larger numbers. Hill farming is inefficient and ineffective. It keeps the countryside looking as we have come to expect it, but the world would not end if sheep farming did, it would just look different. Not worse, not better, just different.

It isn't the change in landscape that fills me with dread, it's the thought of more and more factory farming.
Those disgusting Anchor adverts say it all to me, what a future... I'm glad I'm old and grew up when I did. Still, at least the animals will be tucked up in their duvets with music playing, with a processed, perfectly balanced, full fat diet served at their standing station. They'll be safe from the weather and 'we' will be happy because they look nice and clean and well feed so must be 'happy'.

 

[cptrayes]

The way the big supermarkets treats farmers stinks and is probably illegal. But anyone who sues for breach of contract doesn't get a contract again. We need a LOT more action from somewhere (whistleblowers in the supermarket?, undercover investigations?) on the contract abuses going on daily.

Amanda I share your horror of the milk factories. It's bad enough to manage hens that way, but large mammals - horrific.

I can only hope that as we run out of easily available oil we are forced to go back to a more localised production on a smaller scale. We wait and see.

 

[Alec Swan]

The way the big supermarkets treats farmers stinks and is probably illegal. But anyone who sues for breach of contract doesn't get a contract again. We need a LOT more action from somewhere (whistleblowers in the supermarket?, undercover investigations?) on the contract abuses going on daily.

Amanda I share your horror of the milk factories. It's bad enough to manage hens that way, but large mammals - horrific.

I can only hope that as we run out of easily available oil we are forced to go back to a more localised production on a smaller scale. We wait and see.

Para 1 deals with the Supermarkets who determine the paid price. Before we had Supermarkets, our food suppliers bought through markets, and they had to bid for what they bought. Then we had "Boards" that formed. The idea with these boards was that they would protect their members, and to an extent, they did. Specifically with milk, and the by-products, there is now no protection for the producer. It is vital that Government steps in, reinstates a system of "Subsidy", and protects our ability to produce our own dairy products.

I've rather jumped in front. "Subsidies". Though we no longer have them, we've renamed them and we're offered them for environmental nonsense, they are still, in effect, the same thing, they've just been re-labelled.

If we have no subsidised food production, then the British farmer will not survive. "So what"? I hear you say. It would be catastrophic. We already have to compete with food imported from abroad, and if our agricultural industry is to go to the wall, then we will be at the mercy of those whose idea of animal welfare, and the general protocol of principled food production, is all but non-existent. When any industry is abandoned, then as our coal mines, a re-start would be impossible.

Para 2. I too share your disquiet over the dairy industry. I attend County and local shows, and I see dairy cattle being "shown", which are wafer thin, and I wonder why. Wafer thin actually equates to "of skeletal proportion", and I wonder why. Perhaps someone can explain to me how an emaciated dairy cow produces more, or better milk. If they were a horse, you'd be in Court, that quick, your feet wouldn't touch the ground.

I don't have an answer to the question of dairy production, except to say that without further EU regs (which the French will ignore ), then dairy cows will be the milk machines, and will remain plugged into, milk machines.

Para 3. That would be the ideal solution, I agree, but it all comes around to the same old question, when a family who are struggling to support and house and cloth and educate and feed, a young family, and they see a pint of milk for £1, in one shop, and a pint of milk for £2 in another, which one do we suppose that they will buy?

On another note, and to quote you from another thread, where you state that sheep are better farmed on the plains, that's true if you're into promoting factory, or mass farming principles. The truth is that some 5-10k years ago, man sourced his first sheep from the mountains. The sheep was a hill animal then, and it still is. Sheep are still better kept on the hill, where they prosper.

Alec.