Farrier in a bad mood

TicTac

TicTac

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I had my mare shod today. She is a fidget at the best of times but she generally settles down. She's not the sort of horse you can leave your farrier to get on with because she is just into everything and gets fed up quickly but never kicks out or anything like that.

Today the weather has been a mixture of very warm sunshine and showers and the flies are terrible and if there is one thing bound to make my mare fidget even more is the flies. This in turn made my farrier swear at her because he was getting annoyed with her.

Finally as we near the end of the shoeing process when the mare was expected to put her feet on the tripod to have the final 'dressing' she kept snatching her foot away at which point my farrier completely lost his temper and gave her one hard thump in the ribs and as she turned round to react he hit her on the head with his elbow!

I was so shocked I didn't know what to say! On one hand I didn't want to shout at him and say "how dare you!" as the mood he was in, he probably would have just packed his bags and left but on the other , my mare did stand still for the remainder of the process.

I generally don't have any complaints about my farrier as he is very good at his job, but he has absolutely no people skills and gets frustrated with the horses too quickly for my liking. ( this is not the first time he has smacked one of my horses)

I have used him for 10 years but really think I am only prepared to give him one more chance before I consider changing farriers, and we are lucky as in our area we have several who are also very good and a little more patient.
 
Sorry that he has done that to your horse. I do hope that the horse is ok after that.

I personally if mine did that I would say once he had finished "I do not want you to shoe my horse again after you hit my horse today" 10 years or 1 day I personally do not think that he had any right to loose it the horse it is not acceptable at any time. Hitting it is hardly going to encourage the horse to stand nice and quietly if fact I would have thought it would have the reverse effect. Personally no more chances get your self a new farrier.
 
I had an incident with my farrier last year when he lost his temper with my horse and ended up hitting him in the ribs and face. The horse was only leaning a bit with his back legs and was only young. I'm normally quite laid back but I was so furious I just couldn't help myself and started shouting at him. I told him not to bother even finishing my horse off. I had to get another farrier to come along later on in the day to clip down the clenchers.
I'd had the farrier for about 7 years but I couldn't tolerate him being near my horse again. I got another one who is lovely and patient and hasn't had a problem with my horse whatsoever.

You are paying for a service and you shouldn't have to put up with this kind of behaviour. I know farriers can be hard to come by but sometimes they are a law unto themselves.
 
I would be changing Farriers. YOU are the customer paying him for a service and he has no right to do that to your horse. Surely he comes across horses that are alot worse than your to shoe?! It not like he was put in danger. I'd be furious and he wouldn't touch my horse again
 
No-one has the right to hit your horse!! that is awful. I can understand you not wanting to say anything as these situations can be hard. But i wouldn't let him near her again and i'd tell him why!
 
I have a notoriously grumpy farrier, but I wouldn't change him for the world!
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He takes no more nonsense from my horses than I would, and they don't think they can take the proverbial. Farrier day is an equally relaxed and pleasant affair for farrier, owner and horses! My job, unless there are foals, who I will hold for him, is to keep the coffee and biccies flowing!

My old cantankerous twisted unspeakable thing of a mare has historically had a few run-ins with him when he first started shoeing her, she took pride in continually giving farriers grief - but now she stands patiently, and I can't believe it's same horse.

The youngsters he's been doing since foals all stand perfectly relaxed and quiet when the time comes for them to get their first shoes on (always hot) I've never had to hold one of them yet - his no nonsense approach certainly works with my lot.

Nervous horses deserve allowances, and it's out of order to reprimand a horse for something that the horse can't help, or isn't able to do (think EW here!), but IMHO if a horse is reprimanded and is then evidently able to behave itself appropriately, and doesn't appear mentally traumatised by the experience, then the reprimand was probably justified, and the first step in the road to 'excellent to shoe' horse!

Now all you need to sort out are his people skills!! ( I highly recommend plying farrier with copious amounts of good, strong coffee, and plenty of good quality chocolate biscuits!)
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A dig in the ribs is one thing but hitting your horse in the face where there is not much flesh is a step too far. If you are happy with the work he does maybe politely suggest to him that you prefer him not to touch your horses face and maybe ask if you can be of more assistance with him to stop her leaning/moving - you should be the one to 'sort' your horse (in whatever way you normally do) not someone else.

Either that or elbow him in the face, see how he likes it!
 
Playing devil's advocate here (it's ok - I have a collander on my head to deflect anything flung at me lol) - but if a horse is misbehaving, and is becoming a danger to the farrier (which is obviously serious, if he breaks a limb he can't work), and he can't reprimand the horse then what do you do?? Would you rather have a farrier who will give a short sharp reprimand resulting in horse standing sensibly, or do you want to perpetuate things resulting in a horse that your nice, patient, kind farrier doesn't want to shoe?

My mare is a proverbial-taker, and i'd rather he reprimanded her and she now stands sensibly and calmly, than a 'kind' farrier who just has the proverbial taken and ends up unable to do his job effectively!

It's not just about holding the foot long enough to slap on a shoe, there is alot of skill in the foot preparation and shoeing, and that can't be easy with the horse dancing around like an idiot, or worse.
 
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... but if a horse is misbehaving, and is becoming a danger to the farrier (which is obviously serious, if he breaks a limb he can't work), and he can't reprimand the horse then what do you do?? Would you rather have a farrier who will give a short sharp reprimand resulting in horse standing sensibly, or do you want to perpetuate things resulting in a horse that your nice, patient, kind farrier doesn't want to shoe?

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neither option for me please
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i reprimand my horses as i feel appropriate as i am the best person to judge whether they are cheeky, nervous, scared etc.
my farrier would never dream of hitting any of my horses as they are not his horses to hit.

however, i have one horse who weaves who is a nightmare to shoe.
hitting him obviously doesn't work so i hold him and my farrier does a fantastic job shoeing him while calling him every name nder the sun in a sugary sing-song voice while we all swing from side to side!

and if my farrier was ever unhappy with the situation i would wave him goodbye- simple
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i wouldn't expect the vet to smack my dog so why do people think its ok for a farrier to hit a horse?
i pay him to shoe the horse and i don't want or expect him to correct their behavious; if he feels it is too dangerous to do he can speak to me or refuse to shoe them.
 
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I would be changing Farriers. YOU are the customer paying him for a service and he has no right to do that to your horse. Surely he comes across horses that are alot worse than your to shoe?! It not like he was put in danger. I'd be furious and he wouldn't touch my horse again

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Same here. Since when does hitting a horse keep a farrier safe as a different poster intimated? I thought we'd moved on from the Dark Ages...
 
While I would not expect my farrier to routinely hit my horse, if it behaved in an inappropriate manner with him and it needed chastising I would not object. I would be mortified if my horse behaved badly and I did nothing to stop it. I do not think it is helpful to make excuses for horses not standing still (as the horse in the OP was obviously able to stand still after the reprimand)
 
I perosnally am not and wouldn't be bothered if a farrier lashed out at any of my horses. They are horses. I lash out at them all the time. If they are being twats they need to learn thats not on. IME having a horse that doesn't stand quitely is not only a pain but it's really not funny when your trying to treat it for an injury. Maybe you'd prefer it if I said if a another horse was making your horses life harder and pissing her off, she'd do something very similar I'm sure!! A good farrier is gold dust so no, I would never let go of a good one for another who might do just the same.
 
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I perosnally am not and wouldn't be bothered if a farrier lashed out at any of my horses. They are horses. I lash out at them all the time. If they are being twats they need to learn thats not on. IME having a horse that doesn't stand quitely is not only a pain but it's really not funny when your trying to treat it for an injury.

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Ever thought that patient training may be appropriate? Rather than a wack? Ever thought that the horse is bothered by flies or something else rather than being a twat?

Next time you are irritable or upset about something maybe i could hit you round the face so that you learn a lesson?
 
Patient training may work with a few but there's a thin line between a horse taking the piss. Horses are too dangerous to allow them to do what they want because 'there bothered by the flies'. I have worked at a few proffesional yards and zero tollerance goes without saying when your working with big, young, randy stallions!!

My three own year old is almost impossible to tell off as he's a cocky, confident and unflappable pony, so yes I have actually kicked him a few times. He is an angel to do and is breaking very sweetly because he knows I won't accept anything less. Honestly in the long run a good telling off is alot kinder. My other Spider, I wouldn't ever go within a 100 metres with a whip, just a rasied voice and a tug on the lead rein sends him inside out. I will do this though as he can lose his head alittle, forgot himself and his mannors. He's a tall horse and has learn to 'scare people'. Don't worry, I'm honestly not that mean, I was always getting told to be alot firmer with the horses at work.

I don't understand some of the 'natural horsemanship' lovers that are all anti hurting a horse yet seem to start every sentence with 'in the wild...' In the wild the alfa horse would quickly put any horse that wasn't repecting him back into place. I thought the idea of 'natural horsemanship' was to communicate with the horse is a launage he understands.
 
Believe me, i am not a natutral horsemanship fanatic. But if a horse is trained well from a young age or appropriately re-trained with patience when older then i find there is rarely a time when you need to give it a kick/thump/whatever.

And as for the horses natural behaviour, if the lead horse is wanting more respect from another it doesnt wade in with hooves flying. It warns first with its facial expression and maybe a bite then progresses to a kick only if the initial warning signs have been ignored.

Sorry, but i have many young horses, and a stallion, and i have never needed to kick any of them. Backing them up or a slap on the chest, yes, but not a thump in the face nor a kick.

IMO too many people resort to violence because they dont have the patience or knowledge to understand their horse.
 
Tic Tac, I have just seen your location and I have been in a very similar situation with a farrier. He smacked my filly on the shoulder. Dont wish to name names - but does his surname begin with a 'H' ??
 
I have been reading all the replies with interest and would just like to re-iterate that my mare is not dangerous, nasty or unruly to shoe, she was just fidgety from being bothered by the flies, which to my mind is no justification for a wallop.
 
I would just reiterate that if the horse was subsequently able to stand quietly, and had apparently 'got the message' then she should have been doing that in the first place. I wonder whether, if the mare was generally sensible with the farrier, he'd have had more patience with her - there's a limit to how much horse-poo one man can take!

If anyone has ever inadvertantly been in the way when a horse has taken an apparently 'mild' swipe at another due to some relatively minor insubordination they will know that there is very little a human can do with their bare hands that compares to a kick from a horse, or even a 'nip'.

The reason that in the wild a scowl, curl of lip, flash of ear etc is so effective is at some point the subordinate has learned that if it doesn't pay attention to the subtle signs (like you growling at the horse) it'll get clobbered by the other horse.

If he had reduced a nervvy mare to a quivering wreck, and had been shoeing her for 10 years and so should have known her temperament, then i'd have happily throttled him, but from what the original poster said about her subsequent behavious, I reckon he judged her spot on.

The other comments about 'it not being the farrier's place to hit the horse' is also an interesting point. I would never hit a horse while the farrier was working under it, regardless of its behaviour, in case the farrier got flattened - therefore the farrier is actually in the best position to reprimand the animal instantly, without wasting time asking him to step aside while you make it clear to the animal that her behaviour is unacceptable and won't be tolerated.
 
That happened with my gelding, he was hit once and then was really tense around farriers, however I changed to these other men who really cared about the job they did, and he was so relaxed and fell asleep. My mare and my sister's gelding still get done by the farrier that hit my gelding, as he likes them and they like him, and are very well behaved around him, so they don't have a problem with him.
 
For me it's all about the farrier knowing the horse...if he has been shoeing my horse for years, then he knows that she is normally well behaved. If as in your case it was a very hot day with masses of horse flies jumping on her and she was fidgety I would expect him to be patient with her and I would do my best to swot the flies. A wollop in the ribs and a smack in the head is totally unnacceptable and I would have told my farrier that in no uncertain terms, if he had decided to leave I would have asked him to finish the job and I would pay him, if he decided not to do my horse again that would be up to him.
You are the customer and you deserve respect and so does your horse.
 
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Believe me, i am not a natutral horsemanship fanatic. But if a horse is trained well from a young age or appropriately re-trained with patience when older then i find there is rarely a time when you need to give it a kick/thump/whatever.

And as for the horses natural behaviour, if the lead horse is wanting more respect from another it doesnt wade in with hooves flying. It warns first with its facial expression and maybe a bite then progresses to a kick only if the initial warning signs have been ignored.

Sorry, but i have many young horses, and a stallion, and i have never needed to kick any of them. Backing them up or a slap on the chest, yes, but not a thump in the face nor a kick.

IMO too many people resort to violence because they dont have the patience or knowledge to understand their horse.

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Completely agree with this, and for this reason i have 2 seperate farriers to attend my horses. The first does my older horses and has from time to time lost his temper with them (not to the point of hitting them and if he did he would be off my yard with my boot up his derriere!!), and the second chap trims my babies. The reason i have 2 farriers is that the first came to trim my weanlings shortly after i bought them and had absolutely no patience with them, lost his temper, expected them to behave like my older horses and i could just see it all becoming very ugly. I invested a lot of time working with them and in the end found a fantastic farrier who spent time making sure my fillies were at ease and just quietly trimmed them. If he could fit in the time to do my other 4 i would have him in a shot!! Just wanted to say that, i don't think you get anywhere with hitting a horse and i now have 2 lovely four year olds who will stand like angels to be done, i dread to think what they would have been like had someone 'lashed out' at them!! Downright bloody dangerous and ruined no doubt!!!
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one farrier i had once kept hold of my mares good leg whilst she was stood on an injured on. she was standing very awkwardly and it was causing her pain so she tried to put her foot down. he immediately took his rasp and whacked her 3 times into her stomach and once on her hock! i actually grabbed his shoulder i was so angry and said put her bloody foot down right now you idiot, look how shes standing!!!
he did appologise actually and i said to him if he ever acted like that to my horses again he would not be getting paid or coming back.
i dont mind they raising their voice or a bit of a prod on the side if they are genuinely being naughty.

i think i am quite helpful to the farriers- i always make sure the mares are in and feet clean with headcollars on and haynets to keep them occupied for the baby.

they are generally very good with their feet and i will stand at their head and I will raise my voice or smack/poke their shoulder if they misbehave, which isnt often at all.

as a farrier i think i would expect the horse to be handled and any quirks expalined before i decided to handle the horse and i would stand away and talk to the owner if i was un happy or worried by its behaviour at any point.
i would explain if i thought the horse needed a firmer line- if that was not ok with the owner i would then refuse to shoe it on this basis.
i do think farriers must get fed up and finding a horse whos feet only get lifted by them every 8 weeks and behave like an idiot. not the horses fault or the farriers!

i wouldnt meter out punishment/ 'training' on someone elses horse myself without talking to the owner about the animals behaviour. why would any 'professional' be different?
 
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Tictac, woudl the farrier be open to shoeing her in a fly rug? I had my nervous mare trimmed on Friday, after spending 3 weeks clicker training her for picking up feet and being held in trimming positions, but Friday was quite a nice day and the sodding flies were all over her. I asked if he'd be ok with the rug and he was absolutely fine. She stood as well as any other horse (she previously couldn't be trimmed - apparently the last farrier only did 2.5 feet!), but I'm sure she'd have been more agitated without the rug on.

As for having to hit horses all the time? I think I'd be reviewing my training technique, or lack of it!
 
I think it would be a good idea for me to put a fly rug on her next time, The farrier shouldn't mind as they are shod with rugs on in the winter.

I have thought about this whole situation alot and will be ready to step in and say my piece if I think it's going to happen again.

I've only had my mare just over a year and it has taken me the best part of that to gain her trust due to a previous owner who was too stick happy!
 
yeah, i think you have to say to him that you were really unhappy with what he did. Too bad if he was in a bad mood, he should not be taking it out on your horses.
I had one once who constantly swore at mine, even my wee boys pony, who never puts a foot wrong. He smacked my big mare for moving, she only shifted her weight. I had words at the time, my mare was badly treated in the past and i wasn't paying him a lot of money to knock us backwards. All she needs is to be told in a stern voice and she stops whatever she is doing.
It was getting to the stage that i was nervous of him coming and my horse was not happy so i changed.
I now have a farrier who is totally brilliant, he knows how sensitive she is and treats her accordingly. She stands like a dope on a rope for him anyway. he is so kind to my wee pony too.
He will tell her off if she pulls a leg, and that is fair enough.
I don't think he would object to a fly rug if you think it would help.
 
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