Farriers...

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QR
I do not always hold my horse to be shod (am around or the groom is) but this is because she goes in the cross ties and stands still, lifts her legs up etc etc and is no trouble. When she was young this was very much not the case (infact the first time she had shoes on she was the naughtiest horse I have ever seen to be shod), so I would stand and hold her and have taught her what behavior is acceptable / unacceptable. Now that she knows she doesn't have to be held. The fact is, the horse HAS to be taught manners in order to make everyone's life easier and safer and it is NOT the farriers job to teach YOUR horse manners - it is yours.
My farrier is great and will persevere with young horses as long as he can see that I am in the process of teaching them manners in order to make his job easier - then he'll help but if I just left him to get on with it when the horse was hopping about he would not be happy - and I would fully expect him to not be happy.
You may say that the horse is just hopping about but you try and hold a horses leg up for any length of time while it is hopping and see how your back feels.
I hate people who make excuses why their horse can be naughty....my horse is sharp as hell but she can stand still to be shod - and neither me nor the farrier had to beat her to achieve this.

 

[Tia]

My horses will stand all day long tied to the fence quite happily. I don't own any fidgety horses, all are quiet and non-plussed about anything that goes on.

I hold them out of respect for my farrier.

 

[_Jazz_]

I was just about to post this thought too

Now I've learnt my lesson to seek a farrier on reputation then 'assess' them personally

until 100% happy they are to be trusted, gawd what we do for our horses !, isn't it lovely to have a trusted farrier that happily attends them whilst you are pottering, ie making them tea

or in your case working hard p.s I was in your situation until recently, I appreciate the hard work ! Still you look well on it

Good for you

 

[rcm_73]

tbh I think I will try a different farrier as to be fair the gelding is a pretty dopey animal that likes people and I don't think he was patient enough with the horse who I think was acting out of fear not malice. He was fine with the smoke, it was just the nailing on he wasn't happy with. I feel this farrier has got less and less patient with my horse(s) as time has gone on, I get the hint of some personal probs at home but they should not be brought to work and taken out on client's horses. He doesn't seem to have much of a rep as it is and has probably only lasted this long with me because my TB mare is so good to shoe (and he's hit her in the belly for moving!) seems a short tempered little man and not much of a horseman whom I only started with as he was local and advertising in the local paper...which in itself could be a warning sign..
Thanks all for your comments..obviously a lot of different views to be had.

 

[_Jazz_]

Maybe try making him a cup of tea instead?

Oh, slap my danny, I'm sinking to your level *chortle chortle*

 

[Tia]

Oh he has lunch here and he doesn't drink tea, he drinks coffee.

 

[_Jazz_]

One one comment re: Q'not much of a horseman 'UQ
Maybe this is generalisation but my good guys were horsemen-ex racing, household cavalry,army -the bad guy wasn't..Something to ponder
Good Luck
x

 

[k9h]

Not going to get into the "discussion"!
But surley for insurance sake you should be (or allocate someone) to be present when your horse is being dealt with??? That way there is a "witness" should anything go wrong or to aid help to any injury?? Should something go wrong farrier could say anything & you would be none the wiser?
I don't know if OP was with the horse, but surley if it was a new horse to the yard & being shod for the first time whilst in their care, then someone should of been present? (or if you were present then how did farrier get to clobber more than once?) Just saying if it were my farrier he would of got told after the first hit.
Not having a "go" at anyone.

 

[MillionDollar]

I have to say Tia i don't hold any of my horses when the farrier comes. 1. Because all of my horses stand like rocks 2. The farriers even come when i'm not at home. The only time i've held a horse was for my youngster as he'd never had the farrier before, once he got used to it i stopped.

Of course when they come i'll go and tie the horses up (if im at home) chat to the farriers and then go and make them a drink and then get on with my jobs.

But thats the way i do it, and i quite agree for your reasons for holding all of your horses.

 

[fizz-tally]

i hold mine,jay can be a bit off on his hind,after having so many vets poke & prod him when he injured it,he doesnt like men around it. if i hold him he behaves & i love watching farriers working on feet anyway so i can bug him

when i worked at a riding school,1 groom was given the job of standing in the stalls while 5 horses got done at a time,if any misbehaved they got held

 

[EllieBeast]

Hey Caz, (sorry just replying to the post following my last one). Honestly - i was NOT jumping on the bandwagon. i just stated my opinion. i also stated that i could not judge the situation under discussion as i do not know the horse, farrier or situation. Again, all i was doing was stating my own opinion which i am entitled to do. and yes i would be mortified if my horse misbehaved for the farrier, as i pride her for her good manners in such situations. i have held many ill-behaved horses for the farrier, and he has continued to shoe them, but i have always been glad that said horses were not my own. again my opinion, and i am happy to listen to and accept others opinions. i dont appreciate being shot down for mine.

 

[leanne123]

you want to be glad that you don't live in germany lol, the owner/groom has to tie the horse up and pick up and hold every leg for the farrier to shoe it.
the reason being they last longer as farriers as not as many accidents (to farrier) and no bad backs.
and take it from me its not nice when your a groom having 8/9 horses shod either.
im now very grateful to my farrier over here who is firm but fair and loves his cup of tea too.

 

[peaelf]

what farrier do you use? i recommend Paul Roberts or his step son Russell, best farriers ive had so far.

 

[_Jazz_]

LOL

I'll let my old farrier know this fact so he can add to his 'How to treat your farrier guide'

He's gonna LOVE this !!!Would German farriers appreciate the No Nails Glue joke HAHA

 

[madhector]

i hold mine for my farrier, one of them would stand tied fine 99% of the time, but ive seen the 1% when he wouldnt and personally wouldnt want to risk putting my farrier in unnessary harms way, my farrier prefers to have them held too so thats what we do

 

[wizzi901]

ok....we had similar (have) similar problems with our new one, luckily my farrier is not one to give in, and whilst I did have the horses back checked etc, my farrier is still good enough to persevere in getting newbie to have his back feet shod!

Its all very well saying a horse should stand still but if you have a fidget or ex racer (who typically hate their back feet being done - not sure why!) then you have to start somewhere!

How on earth can you teach your horse to be good if you have a wimpy farrier that wont even have a go at holding on to fidgety horse.

Our boy is getting better each visit and my farrier would not just refuse to do him, he would find a way round it, whether it is putting slightly less nails in etc, he will get the job done.

A decent farrier should help someone who has a horse with issues on being shod to some degree or the problem will not get better?

I always hold the newbie but farrier would rather just get on with the other two who are saints!

 

[Fantasy_World]

Crikey why are some people evident on being bitchy yes bitchy towards Caz and My Mills.
Caz I agree with everything you say to be honest. The fact that your mare was aged and the farrier was wrenching her legs so high is disgusting as obviously he should have known that her range of movement in her legs and joints would have been more limited due to her age and his actions would have no doubt caused her pain!
My Mills don't worry about your horse you will get there believe me.
I am very new to horse ownership. I have 2 horses, 1 a clydesdale cross who is 15 and a 7 year old cob I got from the horse sales.
The latter is a complete baby and I am a novice owner lol but I like a challenge. When I bought him from Leominster he was very close to being not vetted as he would not lift up his near fore ( think that is right lol) he kept rearing and slamming it down. The people selling him ( he came from a stud in wales) claimed he had been shod about twice, bullshit I reckon, once maybe for the sales.
He was supposed to have been broken in last summer and I do believe that though as he is certainly fine with tack on although my daughter has only been on him once and she came off lol. But he has a nice nature and follows you like a dog when led and in the field so I just won't get rid of him.
Anyway he eventually got the leg up and we got him home.
He was then found to have what we though was mud fever but turned out to be mites. I am 99% sure it is and I'm going to get a scrape to put under microscope to doubley check as 2 treatments of frontline have improved his legs but they are not totally gone yet. Need to try and get his scabs off first though, bit hard with a nervous horse when it will make his legs sore.
Anyway the point I was trying to make was that we thought him not wanting to lift his feet etc to be picked was due to his sore legs as he was a mess when we got him home and he was bleeding due to him biting himself. He does not have that now know so at least we have alleviated what must have been bugging him for the last 6 years as they thought he had mud fever.
He did get better with his feet although he will still stamp the odd one down and can fidget.
He is not perfect but in just a few months he has improved and his manners are improving.
However when he was last shoed in December ( due to go barefoot this month) he was naughty for the farrier.
Now my farrier is very patient with horses I was told as he does my lad as I did not like his original farrier as I was told he would set about a horse that misbehaved and I'm sorry for jabbing hard and whacking a horse will not solve anything imo. I believe that may have happened to my daughter's cob as I think he was only shod once and it was not a pleasant experience hence his attitude afterwards.
He was nervous about the farrier and reared etc and at one point the farrier almost gave up and said he would take off shoes and that was that. But I twitched him for fear of safety to the farrier, plus my inexperience around horses even though I have ridden for over 20 years, owning your first is not the same lol.
He calmed down and with some persuasion and soft talking we did it. I am now going to go barefoot with him and it will be easier all round and because he has very good feet so my farrier says he should be fine.
I am hoping for a difference in him as we have been working with his feet more and despite the weather we have spent more time grooming him.
I would guess that your horse is just equally as nervous as he is young and is in new surroundings as well.
Work with him, spend time lifting his feet and give him loads of praise when he does something you want and ignore the bad behaviour.
Tapping his feet will do wonders as well as we have been doing that with our cob.
I agree that your farrier was out of order in his approach especially as it is a young horse. Yes I know a horse needs to learn manners but my horse used to get reprimanded by his former owner for putting his head close to theirs.
I'm sorry but yes while they need to learn manners to be safe to us, they are not money making machines and deserve love and affection and cuddles.
It has taken months for my lad to get used to cuddles and now he will even put his nose forward for a kiss. He was so aloof when I had him but now will accept affection. That does not mean to say that he doesn't get told off if he tries to take liberties or slams down a foot etc.
But I am not a believer that a horse is just there to be used. You muck them out give them a quick groom, tack up, ride, cool down, feed and don't even say goodbye etc.
Some owners are like that and it really annoys me.
Show kindness to a horse, give it some love and show affection and if he/she decides to nuzzle you back so what. A horse should not be punished for trying to groom you back.
I'm sorry I'm getting a tad angry now and have gone off the train of thought lol.
But what I was trying to lead to was natural horsemanship. Wherever you can use it do so.
To get a horse to do what you want out of it wanting to please you and respect you is far better than getting a horse to do something out of fear which sadly some horses do.
Good luck and I hope you manage to get a new farrier sorted out. I wish I knew one but I don't know if mine will travel that far although he is based in Cheshire.
Cazx

 

[Nailed]

OKay.. speaking from personal experience (I am on an farrier access course) there is nothing worse than a horse 'hopping' pulling its leg away from you when you are removing shoes, nailing on. The clenches are up, therefore they are sharp, and will cause lazerations to the farriers skin, it also knocks the farrier off balence and can cause injury.

When i am trained i have no intention of shoeing ill mannered horses, youngsters are not a problem, but ill-mannered ones are. I think it is the responsability of the horses owner to ensure the horses are held, and are happy to have there feet messed with.

I do not agree with you comments conserning the farrier hitting your horse.. My ex-racer was messing about for the farrier last week and the farrier clouted him, and i am glad he did it because had he not, he would have continued to be naughty.

Farriers are professionals, there working conditions are a wee bit diffrent from that of say a lawyer.
Lou x

 

[merlinsquest]

I work as a hairdresser in an elderly persons home..... if the old ladies wont put their heads back into the basin to have their hair washed am I allowed to push or smack them to make them behave, even though they are senile and arthritic???

NO and would be in serious trouble if i did!!

I dont think that anyone has the right to abuse anyone else, and dumb animals are just that.... they cant say if something hurts or if they are scared, other than by 'misbehaving'. That is their way of communicating... just like my little old ladies. Many of them have no power of speach due to strokes, and so if they are being 'awkward' I have to work out why, not give them a slap with the hairbrush!!!

 

[Nailed]

i see you point, but i horse hopping.. or being ill mannered is not caused by pain, or discomfort therefore i do not see a comparison.

If a horse is genuinly scared or in pain then a do not think it deserves to be reprimanded.. Nor will any other farrier.
Lou x

 

[Fantasy_World]

I don't know where you plan on working Lou but failing to shoe ill mannered horses and those which as you quaintly put it, 'hop around' will see you facing a very short career.
Ok so farriers can be choosy over who they will shoe and those they will not but surely a bit of give and take should be given by the farrier, especially when it comes to shoeing green or young horses.
But if you enter the trade with an approach like that how will you deal with a client who has 2 very good horses and one which is troublesome to shoe? Would you simply say oh sorry I cannot shoe your horses as one of them has ill manners.
I'm not saying farriers should put themselves at risk and of course the owner should take every possible step to control the animal, but horses need time to be conditioned to situations as they don't have the cognitive understandings of a human and are quite primeval and follow instincts above anything else.
Also they are not machines and have mood swings like humans do I would argue with anyone who says that a horse cannot have a cob on lol pardon the pun.
So if Mrs A's mare is awful to shoe when in season and was terribly ill mannered would you refuse to shoe her even if it was important she was shoed whilst in season as she was due to trained for a show?

 

[henryhorn]

I've been dealing with farriers for over 45 years, and things have changed a lot since the days I hacked to the forge and held the horse whilst he made each shoe one at a time, but the ettiquette hasn't changed at all.
It is normal to be expected to present the horse with reasonably clean legs and feet to be shod, several farriers in my time have insisted on a clean level stable to shoe on too.
Someone should always be around, if a horse rears on the farrier and knocks him out, you need to be there!
Some horses are perfect to shoe and can be left whilst the farrier works and you are within earshot.
Others are difficult and yes, you should always be there to feed and hold if necessary.
I have no problem with the odd whack with a flat hand, I won't however have punches, wallops with the rasp.
I tend to be the first person to give a horse a reprimand , and then if the farrier needs to unless it's the above I don't mind.
Tea/coffee is always proffered as is somewhere under cover to shoe if it's wet.
Payment on the day is normal and the odd occasion someone else has the chequebook, we pay up the next visit.
The baby horses get a lot of time spent on them before the meet the farrier.
Foals have all four feet picked up and from then on they get used to that plus taps with the toffee hammer.
We always shoe just fronts the first time, as it's safer for the farrier.
Anything really messing about we step in and first twitch then if that doesn't work, we ask the farrier to leave it, they are normally reliant on being able to work so can't afford to get injured.
My relationships with farriers have tended to be long ones, and it upset me greatly to have to move from our last one, in return I expect a good standard of shoeing, arriving within an hour of the booked time and professional behaviour.
As I said when I started, the rules haven't changed, people have just taken advantage of farriers sometimes.
Ours arrived half an hour early regularly, and once I as still getting dressed.
He shouted at the window he would get the stallion, and didn't hear me shout back not to (or decided to ignore the silly woman)
He appeared with a leadrope and the senior stallion alongside him, he was in his field, and had caught him as I always did, but as they drew level with the raised paddock opposite the house the stallion leapt three feet up onto the bank, flicking the very strong farrier up with him. He then proceeded to scream at the mares, and repeated the performance, up/down, each time with the farrier grimly hanging on for his life...
I by this time was paralytic on the floor holding my bladder with laughter, and it was only when I shouted at the stallion he stopped immediately and walked in sensibly.
If horse's could laugh that old bugger was having some fun, and guess what, the farrier never ever attempted to catch him in again....

 

[_Jazz_]

[ QUOTE ]
I work as a hairdresser in an elderly persons home..... if the old ladies wont put their heads back into the basin to have their hair washed am I allowed to push or smack them to make them behave, even though they are senile and arthritic???

NO and would be in serious trouble if i did!!

So true and agree...
p.s better add to avoid confusion I don't mean about whacking them !! Bless 'your ladies'

 

[clipclop]

WOW! This ended up being one hell of a post!! LOL.

I think there needs to be consideration both ways.

Farriers are not paid to clean your horse or train your horse. They are paid to simply care for the horses hoof.

It makes for interesting reading seeing what Farriers have to put up with.

If I were a Farrier I would charge extra for dirty horses, badly behaved horses etc. These are all factors that make the Farriers job harder, take longer and blunt tools quicker, blaa, blaa, blaaa.

I have been guilty of presenting a dirty horse (Running late). I wouldn't quibble being charged for it.

 

[Fantasy_World]

Lol C you are right there it has become a thread to read pmpl

I always present my horses with clean feet and legs despite the fact that he usually comes early in the morning. I don't drive and have a child to get ready for high school as well.
Travelling to the stables for me is to either walk, which is 25 mins there or else catch a bus and five mins walk.
While I agree that it is not up to the farrier to teach horses to behave, I would argue that in the cases of some their behaviour to horses especially young ones can cause the horses to fear the shoeing process.
Mcfly my daughter's cob is just like that. He gets agitated around strangers and he was fearful of the farrier the first time he shoed him for me at the end of last year.
It will be interesting to see how he behaves this time around now that we have done more work with his feet.
But the horse certainly acts like a horse that may have been beat to be shoed in the first place.
I'm sorry but that is not the way I see horsemanship.
Yes horses should respect you and your space, and I don't agree with beating a horse into submission.
If one of mine plays up whilst having their feet picked etc they do get told off and a short, sharp smack just between the front of the shoulders.
This was a technique I have been shown and it does seem to work on mine.
That said I don't want to advocate smacking a horse and teaching them to behave using natural horsemanship techniques is far better.
However in the case of a farrier yes if the horse is putting him or her in danger with their actions then a reprimand should be dealt by either the handler/owner or the farrier.
By reprimand I agree with what you said and a flat handed slap is ok but jabbing, or using tools or any kind to hit a horse is not imo.
There are many good farriers out there shoeing/trimming etc but equally there are those which are not.
It is only by trial and error as an owner that you sort out the good from the bad and if you happen to find an excellent farrier, hang on to them.
As the saying goes, " no feet, no horse."
Cazx

 

[clipclop]

[ QUOTE ]
While I agree that it is not up to the farrier to teach horses to behave, I would argue that in the cases of some their behaviour to horses especially young ones can cause the horses to fear the shoeing process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, of course. You need to have a Farrier that knows how to handle a horse.

It is no good him arriving at a yard in a foul mood and then expect the horses to comply.

 

[Nailed]

in reply the the 'how are you going to go into the farrier profession'

Young horses, green horses and scared horses i have no problem handling, infact i do alot of schooling of young and problem horses.

However i will not, and should not have to deal with horses which are just plain rude! My job will depend upon my health and half a ton of horses jumoping around me is not safe. Itis not a condition i should have to work with.

Lou x

 

[Spot1]

Hi Mymills I was once told by an old farrier that the only thing worse than the b horses was the b owners. I have since met many of both. The good, the bad and the ugly. Do horses take after their owners or owners get like their horses? Got to go now my rug straps are chaffing a little.

 

[Tia]

Hear hear! I shouldn't worry too much about gaining customers....there are tonnes out there - farriers have the luxury of being able to be picky these days.

 

[pfarrugia]

Wow - what a post. My boy is naughty for the farriers with his hinds - he has stifle problems and can't hold his leg up for too long. We have moved quite a bit and therefore had our fair share of farriers!! I have had people refuse to shoe him and I actually respect that decision (he is 17.2!). I would much rather a farrier stop than carry on and get hurt/hurt the horses. My farrier at the moment is fab and I stay with him and do everything I can to make his life easier when he's shoeing the boy.

Reading through the posts I don't belive that the fact my horse is naughty makes me a bad owner - I hammer his feet everyday, pick them out, scrub them etc - there is no more I feel that I can do but he isn't getting any better! I also hold him when the farrier is there and give him a haynet to take his mind off of it - I have owned horses for many years and know that my horse is naughty - we even tried using sedation but it's like he feels the nails going in!!! Does it make me a bad owner to keep him???? I don't think so. I warn every farrier before they even get to the yard. - so please tell me how this makes me a bad owner........

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that your farrier was wrong by hitting your horse. Find another (if you can - I used to ring around local yards) one with time and patience but be prepared to have them say that they will not shoe your horse (I do think if you find a nice patient one your troubles will be sorted tho!)

Good Luck